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rimsh

rimsh

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Where do you think he would be?

Just wondering what you guys thought.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King John da FiF @ Aug 4 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
</div>

I dont know if I should laugh or feel sorry to for you.

VC plays no Defense. So I think you should rethink this statement.

yeah he has very good offensive talent but you cant put him in the same category as Kobe.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (networks @ Aug 4 2008, 12:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King John da FiF @ Aug 4 2008, 10:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
</div>

I dont know if I should laugh or feel sorry to for you.

VC plays no Defense. So I think you should rethink this statement.

yeah he has very good offensive talent but you cant put him in the same category as Kobe.
</div>
VC does play decent defense. He's not on Kobe's level, but he's not horrible.

He doesn't have Kobe's killer instinct. That's the real thing that separates them, more than having a Shaq.
 
Then the Raptors would have beaten the Bucks and Vince would have made the finals, only to be sweeped.

But since Vince would have been in the Finals in his 3rd season he would have been considered the next Jordan for a couple seasons longer, and he would have stayed on the Raptors to this day.
 
Would that made shot protect him from the numerous injuries he had the next 3-4 seasons? VC's fall from grace didn't happen because of that missed shot. It was his inability to replicate that level of performance at any other point in his career that did.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King John da FiF @ Aug 4 2008, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
</div>

The guys (GMs) who are paid to make decisions for their teams don't think so. Kobe didn't have to take a lesser starting contract upon opting out. The Lakers have refused to move Kobe. Offers of Wally in exchange in trades wouldn't even be considered.

Dude's not on Kobe's level, but to be fair, not many players are or ever will/would be.

-Petey
 
the real question is what level would vc be at if bruce bowen suffered a career-ending injury before he messed up vince carter's (and other players') ankles?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Aug 4 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King John da FiF @ Aug 4 2008, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
</div>

The guys (GMs) who are paid to make decisions for their teams don't think so. Kobe didn't have to take a lesser starting contract upon opting out. The Lakers have refused to move Kobe. Offers of Wally in exchange in trades wouldn't even be considered.

Dude's not on Kobe's level, but to be fair, not many players are or ever will/would be.

-Petey
</div>
As of now obviously Vince isn't anywhere near Kobe's level

But I think he was talking about 2000-2003 seasons, and one could make an argument that Vince was pretty close to Kobe had he not suffered those injuries, especially during the 2001 season
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brian @ Aug 4 2008, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Petey @ Aug 4 2008, 11:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (King John da FiF @ Aug 4 2008, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ace @ Aug 4 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Toronto</div>
He's already on kobe's level, he just never had shaq to lead his team to a championship.
</div>

The guys (GMs) who are paid to make decisions for their teams don't think so. Kobe didn't have to take a lesser starting contract upon opting out. The Lakers have refused to move Kobe. Offers of Wally in exchange in trades wouldn't even be considered.

Dude's not on Kobe's level, but to be fair, not many players are or ever will/would be.

-Petey
</div>
As of now obviously Vince isn't anywhere near Kobe's level

But I think he was talking about 2000-2003 seasons, and one could make an argument that Vince was pretty close to Kobe had he not suffered those injuries, especially during the 2001 season
</div>

From an offensive standpoint I think Vince had the potential to be an even better all around OFFENSIVE player than Kobe. I believe he always had a better jumpshot and he is just as good of a passer if not better. The most amazing bad-shot-maker I've ever seen. If only Vince didn't take so many bad shots and developed even a smidget of Kobe's attacker mentality, I think he would have surpassed Kobe offensively. Of course this all comes from the incredibly biased mouth of a rabid Nets fan so my opinion is not to be taken too seriously.
 
Well Vince definitely had the talent to become one of the top scorers in the league, but like somebody already mentioned, he doesn't have Kobe's killer instinct. When he's on, I've never seen anyone score the way Kobe does, he can take shots anywhere around the court and twist and turn his body and still make the shot. He also scored the second highest points in one game in NBA history, behind Wilt!
 
I don't think VC could have become the all-around superstar like Kobe. I always thought McGrady had that potential. Carter certainly should've become a more dangerous offensive player though.
 
i honestly feel VC is one of the most talented players in the NBA... he just defers to his teammates... but he has been great for the nets


i personally love VC... i just get annoyed when he settles for jumpers when hes talented enough to drive it in the lane and draw the foul :/
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 4 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Would that made shot protect him from the numerous injuries he had the next 3-4 seasons? VC's fall from grace didn't happen because of that missed shot. It was his inability to replicate that level of performance at any other point in his career that did.</div>
Maybe they could have signed some better players? lol

Just looking at the stats, the Raptors had a pretty pathetic roster, even though they practically beat Phili and probably would have beaten the Bucks.

Top 8 players:
1. Vince Carter - 27.6 ppg 46% FG%, 41%, 3FG%, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg.
2. Antonio Davis - 32 year old 6-9 PF playing center shooting 43%, playing 36 mpg.
3. Alvin Williams - starting point guard 9.8 ppg on 43% FG%, and 30.6% 3 point%, 5 apg.
4. Charles Oakley - 37 year old shooting 38.8% FG% for a PF!!!! starting and playing 36 mpg.
5. Morris Peterson - rookie SG, playing 22 mpg.
6. Keon Clark - boozes up and dissappears from the league like 3-4 years later
7. Dell Curry - role player shooting 42.4% FG%
8. Tracy Murray - 5.4 ppg decent 3 point shooter, 36% from 3, but only 39.9% FG%

Sidenote: I'm curious any players putting up the same ppg, rpg, and apg with as much efficiency in FG%, 3FG%, and TOpg. (2.2 TOpg is pretty low)
 
vince carter practically mirrored kobe's stats last year except for ppg...but that's because kobe took more shots per game than vc...and also, vc did it on a bum ankle...

kobe gives more EFFORT on the defensive end than carter...i don't think kobe is that good a defensive player...tell me who is that offensive player kobe had stopped in a game? i even remember some mexican guy crossing him over and repeatedly getting by him in the world championships...he is no mj nor scottie pippen on defense that's for sure...

kobe has the killer instinct lacking in carter

vc is the better passer and rebounder

kobe is selfish...vc's shot selection is horrendous at times...

i think their games would be complementary if they played on one team...
 
Vince used to have as much talent as Kobe, Kobe just used it better because he had more heart and passion than Vince.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Aug 4 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>vince carter practically mirrored kobe's stats last year except for ppg...but that's because kobe took more shots per game than vc...and also, vc did it on a bum ankle...

kobe gives more EFFORT on the defensive end than carter...i don't think kobe is that good a defensive player...tell me who is that offensive player kobe had stopped in a game? i even remember some mexican guy crossing him over and repeatedly getting by him in the world championships...he is no mj nor scottie pippen on defense that's for sure...

kobe has the killer instinct lacking in carter

vc is the better passer and rebounder

kobe is selfish...vc's shot selection is horrendous at times...

i think their games would be complementary if they played on one team...</div>
Kobe doesn't stop people in games because he has to focus on offense. On Team USA, Kobe's the best defender. Ask anyone on the team. Ask Carlos Boozer, he'll tell you. Boozer said Kobe is the best defender on Team USA. I've watched Kobe get assigned to guard the opposing team's best scorer late in the game many times, and succeed. Do I think he's the best defender in the league? Hell no. Did he deserve the All-Defensive First Team selection last year? I've watched pretty much every single one of his games, and I'd say no way. Someone like Shane Battier definitely deserved it over Kobe, but when he's focused, and when he wants to, Kobe can play some of the tougher defenses in the league

I didn't watch a lot of the Olympic games last year so I can't really comment on the Mexican guy, although I can say I saw his crossover. Pretty sick move, but it's only one play. I'm sure MJ or Pippen didn't lock down every single player they faced either (btw, I'm not comparing Kobe's defense to that of MJ's or Pippen's, obviously they were better).

Also, VC's bum knee is no excuse. Ever since the Allstar Break, Kobe played with a broken pinkie that required surgery, but that didn't stop him from leading the Lakers to the Finals. To put it into perspective, Lebron James sprained his pinkie and sat out a week. Kobe didn't miss a game.

And no Kobe is not selfish. Maybe a couple of years ago yes, but not anymore. He has more trust in his teammates now and doesn't go into shot jacking mode like he did in the 2004 Finals against Detroit.
 
I can't believe someone is actually comparing Carter to Kobe. That's absolutely hilarious...and not in a good way. Kobe is the best player in the world. Period.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brian @ Aug 5 2008, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jirohkanzaki @ Aug 4 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>vince carter practically mirrored kobe's stats last year except for ppg...but that's because kobe took more shots per game than vc...and also, vc did it on a bum ankle...

kobe gives more EFFORT on the defensive end than carter...i don't think kobe is that good a defensive player...tell me who is that offensive player kobe had stopped in a game? i even remember some mexican guy crossing him over and repeatedly getting by him in the world championships...he is no mj nor scottie pippen on defense that's for sure...

kobe has the killer instinct lacking in carter

vc is the better passer and rebounder

kobe is selfish...vc's shot selection is horrendous at times...

i think their games would be complementary if they played on one team...</div>
Kobe doesn't stop people in games because he has to focus on offense. On Team USA, Kobe's the best defender. Ask anyone on the team. Ask Carlos Boozer, he'll tell you. Boozer said Kobe is the best defender on Team USA. I've watched Kobe get assigned to guard the opposing team's best scorer late in the game many times, and succeed. Do I think he's the best defender in the league? Hell no. Did he deserve the All-Defensive First Team selection last year? I've watched pretty much every single one of his games, and I'd say no way. Someone like Shane Battier definitely deserved it over Kobe, but when he's focused, and when he wants to, Kobe can play some of the tougher defenses in the league

I didn't watch a lot of the Olympic games last year so I can't really comment on the Mexican guy, although I can say I saw his crossover. Pretty sick move, but it's only one play. I'm sure MJ or Pippen didn't lock down every single player they faced either (btw, I'm not comparing Kobe's defense to that of MJ's or Pippen's, obviously they were better).

Also, VC's bum knee is no excuse. Ever since the Allstar Break, Kobe played with a broken pinkie that required surgery, but that didn't stop him from leading the Lakers to the Finals. To put it into perspective, Lebron James sprained his pinkie and sat out a week. Kobe didn't miss a game.

And no Kobe is not selfish. Maybe a couple of years ago yes, but not anymore. He has more trust in his teammates now and doesn't go into shot jacking mode like he did in the 2004 Finals against Detroit.
</div>

fair enough...i'm not saying vc is better than kobe or even kobe's equal...i was just comparing their games...everyone knows kobe is the best player in the nba.

...and good point about kobe playing with a broken finger (i missed that) which he is STILL playing with up to now...but i would argue an ankle would be more important than a pinkie in basketball.

kobe is not as selfish as he was before but will still get bouts of it from time to time...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Joker @ Aug 5 2008, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I can't believe someone is actually comparing Carter to Kobe. That's absolutely hilarious...and not in a good way. Kobe is the best player in the world. Period.</div>

kobe IS the best player in the world. <- period

but kobe gets compared to mj all the time...mj is the best EVER to play the game.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Aug 4 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 4 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Would that made shot protect him from the numerous injuries he had the next 3-4 seasons? VC's fall from grace didn't happen because of that missed shot. It was his inability to replicate that level of performance at any other point in his career that did.</div>
Maybe they could have signed some better players? lol

Just looking at the stats, the Raptors had a pretty pathetic roster, even though they practically beat Phili and probably would have beaten the Bucks.

Top 8 players:
1. Vince Carter - 27.6 ppg 46% FG%, 41%, 3FG%, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg.
2. Antonio Davis - 32 year old 6-9 PF playing center shooting 43%, playing 36 mpg.
3. Alvin Williams - starting point guard 9.8 ppg on 43% FG%, and 30.6% 3 point%, 5 apg.
4. Charles Oakley - 37 year old shooting 38.8% FG% for a PF!!!! starting and playing 36 mpg.
5. Morris Peterson - rookie SG, playing 22 mpg.
6. Keon Clark - boozes up and dissappears from the league like 3-4 years later
7. Dell Curry - role player shooting 42.4% FG%
8. Tracy Murray - 5.4 ppg decent 3 point shooter, 36% from 3, but only 39.9% FG%

Sidenote: I'm curious any players putting up the same ppg, rpg, and apg with as much efficiency in FG%, 3FG%, and TOpg. (2.2 TOpg is pretty low)
</div>
That's a bit of an oversimplification IMO. That roster was built to complement a superstar player like VC. There's no denying Carter carried the team, but he he was able to save himself for the offensive end because he was surrounded with very good defenders and complementary players. Antonio Davis was one of the better rebounders in the league and always stepped up in the playoffs (he averaged 17 and 10 on 45% shooting in those playoffs). Oakley stuck it to opposing teams and made sure they didn't cheapshot Carter (something he had to deal with constantly when they dealt Oak). Alvin averaged 12 and 6 that year, but no one's assist numbers were ever going to be very high when the offense was designed to isolate Vince. His defense was where his impact was felt. I look at that roster as a better version of what the Cavs have tried to do with Lebron: tough veterans and defensively-oriented role players that allowed the superstar to do what he did best. The Sixers team we lost to was built the same way.

The problem arose when we overpaid to keep those players after one promising playoff run.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 5 2008, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Aug 4 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 4 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Would that made shot protect him from the numerous injuries he had the next 3-4 seasons? VC's fall from grace didn't happen because of that missed shot. It was his inability to replicate that level of performance at any other point in his career that did.</div>
Maybe they could have signed some better players? lol

Just looking at the stats, the Raptors had a pretty pathetic roster, even though they practically beat Phili and probably would have beaten the Bucks.

Top 8 players:
1. Vince Carter - 27.6 ppg 46% FG%, 41%, 3FG%, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg.
2. Antonio Davis - 32 year old 6-9 PF playing center shooting 43%, playing 36 mpg.
3. Alvin Williams - starting point guard 9.8 ppg on 43% FG%, and 30.6% 3 point%, 5 apg.
4. Charles Oakley - 37 year old shooting 38.8% FG% for a PF!!!! starting and playing 36 mpg.
5. Morris Peterson - rookie SG, playing 22 mpg.
6. Keon Clark - boozes up and dissappears from the league like 3-4 years later
7. Dell Curry - role player shooting 42.4% FG%
8. Tracy Murray - 5.4 ppg decent 3 point shooter, 36% from 3, but only 39.9% FG%

Sidenote: I'm curious any players putting up the same ppg, rpg, and apg with as much efficiency in FG%, 3FG%, and TOpg. (2.2 TOpg is pretty low)
</div>
That's a bit of an oversimplification IMO. That roster was built to complement a superstar player like VC. There's no denying Carter carried the team, but he he was able to save himself for the offensive end because he was surrounded with very good defenders and complementary players. Antonio Davis was one of the better rebounders in the league and always stepped up in the playoffs (he averaged 17 and 10 on 45% shooting in those playoffs). Oakley stuck it to opposing teams and made sure they didn't cheapshot Carter (something he had to deal with constantly when they dealt Oak). Alvin averaged 12 and 6 that year, but no one's assist numbers were ever going to be very high when the offense was designed to isolate Vince. His defense was where his impact was felt. I look at that roster as a better version of what the Cavs have tried to do with Lebron: tough veterans and defensively-oriented role players that allowed the superstar to do what he did best. The Sixers team we lost to was built the same way.

The problem arose when we overpaid to keep those players after one promising playoff run.
</div>

If it's better than the Cavs roster, which players would you take over who:
Big Z or Antonio Davis at center?
Ben Wallace or Charles Oakley at PF?
Wally Szcerbiak or rookie Mo Pete at SG/SF?
Delonte West or Alvin Williams? (Williams gets .5 more apg, but shoots 31% from 3 as opposed to 35.6% from Delonte)
Varajao or Keon Clark?
Daniel Gibson or Tracy Murray?
Devin Brown or Michael Curry?

Or look at the current Raptors roster, would you trade anyone from the 2007-08 team for anyone from the 2000 team?
Antonio Davis for JO?
Charles Oakley for Andrea Bargnani?
Anthony Parker for rookie Mo Pete?
Jose Calderon for Alivin Williams?
Moon for Keon Clark?
Jason Kapono for Tracy Murray?
Joey Graham or Michael Curry?
http://www.nba.com/raptors/stats/2007/index.html

I would also bet that there has never been a combination of two starters at PF and C, playing at least 35 mpg in the last 30 years that shot 38.8% and 43%.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Aug 5 2008, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I would also bet that there has never been a combination of two starters at PF and C, playing at least 35 mpg in the last 30 years that shot 38.8% and 43%.</div>
I would think the Collins/Boone starting combo was in that area... or worse.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 5 2008, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Lavalamp @ Aug 4 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chutney @ Aug 4 2008, 12:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Would that made shot protect him from the numerous injuries he had the next 3-4 seasons? VC's fall from grace didn't happen because of that missed shot. It was his inability to replicate that level of performance at any other point in his career that did.</div>
Maybe they could have signed some better players? lol

Just looking at the stats, the Raptors had a pretty pathetic roster, even though they practically beat Phili and probably would have beaten the Bucks.

Top 8 players:
1. Vince Carter - 27.6 ppg 46% FG%, 41%, 3FG%, 5.5 rpg, 3.9 apg, 2.2 TOpg.
2. Antonio Davis - 32 year old 6-9 PF playing center shooting 43%, playing 36 mpg.
3. Alvin Williams - starting point guard 9.8 ppg on 43% FG%, and 30.6% 3 point%, 5 apg.
4. Charles Oakley - 37 year old shooting 38.8% FG% for a PF!!!! starting and playing 36 mpg.
5. Morris Peterson - rookie SG, playing 22 mpg.
6. Keon Clark - boozes up and dissappears from the league like 3-4 years later
7. Dell Curry - role player shooting 42.4% FG%
8. Tracy Murray - 5.4 ppg decent 3 point shooter, 36% from 3, but only 39.9% FG%

Sidenote: I'm curious any players putting up the same ppg, rpg, and apg with as much efficiency in FG%, 3FG%, and TOpg. (2.2 TOpg is pretty low)
</div>
That's a bit of an oversimplification IMO. That roster was built to complement a superstar player like VC. There's no denying Carter carried the team, but he he was able to save himself for the offensive end because he was surrounded with very good defenders and complementary players. Antonio Davis was one of the better rebounders in the league and always stepped up in the playoffs (he averaged 17 and 10 on 45% shooting in those playoffs). Oakley stuck it to opposing teams and made sure they didn't cheapshot Carter (something he had to deal with constantly when they dealt Oak). Alvin averaged 12 and 6 that year, but no one's assist numbers were ever going to be very high when the offense was designed to isolate Vince. His defense was where his impact was felt. I look at that roster as a better version of what the Cavs have tried to do with Lebron: tough veterans and defensively-oriented role players that allowed the superstar to do what he did best. The Sixers team we lost to was built the same way.

The problem arose when we overpaid to keep those players after one promising playoff run.
</div>

You forgot to add something else about Oakley. He called Carter out --> Be an F'en Star and lead this team. Kobe, Lebron or MJ dont need people to do that. They are self-motivated.
 
if you must know, kobe is vince with a killer instinct. carter is more athletically gifted than kobe. if carter had the killer instinct, he would be better than kobe.

after 10 years of vince's career, you would think people would have gotten that by now...but they keep getting mad at vince for not being like kobe.....see how far that gets ya. hes not and never has been like kobe or jordan so stop the comparisons and stop saying "what if..."
 
Interesting VC Fact: The day VC missed that shot vs the 76rers to go to the
Conference Finals, VC made the same shot 12 times in a row at the 76ers
gym that night. Thats so crazy. If you made that shot, he wouldn't be in
Jersey.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (networks @ Aug 5 2008, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You forgot to add something else about Oakley. He called Carter out --> Be an F'en Star and lead this team. Kobe, Lebron or MJ dont need people to do that. They are self-motivated.</div>

I guess you never read Phil Jackson's book where he rips Kobe a new one.
 
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