What is a foul?

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durvasa

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Lots of discussion in this forum is based on what what should and should not be a foul. So, I thought its worth it to just quote what the official rules say as a reference.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_12.html?nav=ArticleList

B. Personal Foul

Section I--Types
a. A player shall not hold, push, charge into, impede the progress of an oppo-nent by extending a hand, forearm, leg or knee or by bending the body into a posi-tion that is not normal. Contact that results in the re-routing of an opponent is a foul which must be called immediately.
b. Contact initiated by the defensive player guarding a player with the ball is not legal. This contact includes, but is not limited to, forearm, hands, or body check.
EXCEPTIONS:
(1) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball who has his back to the basket below the free throw line extend-ed outside the Lower Defensive Box.
(2) A defender may apply contact with a forearm and/or one hand with a bent elbow to an offensive player in a post-up position with the ball in the Lower Defensive Box.
(3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of main-taining a defensive position.
(4) A defender may position his leg between the legs of an offensive player in a post-up position in the Lower Defensive Box for the purpose of main-taining defensive position. If his foot leaves the floor in an attempt to dis-lodge his opponent, it is a foul immediately.
(5) Incidental contact with the hand against an offensive player shall be ignored if it does not affect the player's speed, quickness, balance and/or rhythm.
c. Any player whose actions against an opponent cause illegal contact with yet another opponent has committed the personal foul.
d. A personal foul committed by the offensive team during a throw-in shall be an offensive foul, regardless of whether the ball has been released.
e. Contact which occurs on the hand of the offensive player, while that hand is in contact with the ball, is legal.

Also, from "NBA's Misunderstood Rules":
http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html

Forearm Fouls:
A defender may not be in contact with an extended forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time above the free throw line extended. Below the free throw line extended and outside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm to the back/side of an opponent with the ball to maintain his legally obtained position. Inside the lower defensive box, a defender may use an extended forearm at anytime to maintain his position against a payer with the ball. At no time may the forearm be used to dislodge, reroute or impede the offensive player.

Hand Checking:
A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket and the offensive player has his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).

...

Illegal Screens/Picks:
A screen or pick is when an offensive player gets to a legal position on the court in the path of a defender for the purpose of slowing down the defender or making him change directions. An illegal screen/pick is when the offensive player does not get into a legal position. When picking a stationary opponent from the backside, you must give that player a step. When picking a stationary player from the front or side, a player can go right next to him as long as he does not make illegal contact. If the opponent is moving, you must get to your position and give him an opportunity to stop and/or change direction. The speed of the player will determine the distance. You cannot just jump in front of a moving opponent at the last second.

Block/Charge:
A block/charge foul occurs when a defender tries to get in front of his man to stop him from going in that direction. If he does not get into a legal defensive position and contact occurs, it is a blocking foul. If he gets to a legal position and the offensive player runs into him it is an offensive foul. In both situations, if the contact is marginal, no foul may be called. To get into a legal position defending against the dribble, the defender needs to get his torso directly in the path and beat him to the spot. On a drive to the basket, the defender must get to his position before the shooter starts his upward shooting motion. For off ball players, the defender must get into position and allow enough opportunity for the offensive player to stop and/or change direction. All ties are considered blocks as the defender did not beat him to the spot but arrived at the same time.

Restricted Area:
The restricted area (RA) is the area within the arched line on the court located below the rim. Its purpose is to stop secondary defenders from taking a position under the basket in an attempt to draw the offensive foul when a player is driving to the basket. If an offensive player drives past his primary defender on the way to the basket and a secondary defender comes over, he must establish a legal position outside the RA to draw an offensive foul. If the drive starts inside the Lower Defensive Box (LDB – this is the area from the bottom tip of the free throw circle to the endline between the two 3’ posted-up marks), the secondary defender is legally allowed to be positioned inside the LDB. The restricted are also does not apply if the secondary defender jumps in attempting to block the shot, the offensive player leads with his leg or knee in an unnatural motion or uses his off arm to prevent the defender from blocking his shot. The RA does not extend from below the backboard to the baseline. Therefore, if a player drives the baseline and is not attempting to go directly to the rim, the RA does not apply.

...

Marginal/Incidental Contact:
While some contact may occur during a game, it does not mean a foul has been committed. Contact which is incidental to an effort by a player to play an opponent or to perform normal defensive or offensive movements should not be considered illegal. Players are allowed normal body contact with opponents when reaching for a loose ball if they both have the same opportunity to get the ball. This type of play shall be ruled incidental if neither illegally gains an advantage. The hand is considered “Part of the ball” when it is in contact with the ball. It is not a foul if a defensive player makes normal contact with a players hand when it is in contact with the ball.

...
 
Sounds like Artest/Battier really are good defenders - according to the rules.
 
Sounds like Artest/Battier really are good defenders - according to the rules.

you're right, except for this one. but besides that, they're great.

Hand Checking:
A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket and the offensive player has his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).
 
The real issue is that those rules are enforced on one end of the court and not on the other.
 
you're right, except for this one. but besides that, they're great.

Hand Checking:
A defender may not place and keep his hand on an opponent unless he is in the area near the basket and the offensive player has his back to the basket. A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm).

And thats what we see happening, they don't AFFECT Brandon Roy's movement.
 
And thats what we see happening, they don't AFFECT Brandon Roy's movement.

That's where the gray area enters in. Blazer fans are convinced that Artest and Battier (really? Battier?) are beating up on Roy all game. Rockets fans see that as incidental/marginal/momentary contact that is within the rules of perimeter defense.
 
That's where the gray area enters in. Blazer fans are convinced that Artest and Battier (really? Battier?) are beating up on Roy all game. Rockets fans see that as incidental/marginal/momentary contact that is within the rules of perimeter defense.

Thats true, you're right. But what I don't understand is... Roy is getting to the line more than anyone in the series, so why the complaints?
 
Thats true, you're right. But what I don't understand is... Roy is getting to the line more than anyone in the series, so why the complaints?

Because if the refs called it as it's happening, Roy'd be going to the line 26 times a night instead of 8-12. The guys doing the handchecking aren't getting called for it. Some random scrub is getting called for the contact that happens after the foul. They're calling reputation.

The simplest way of putting it: If Roy were Kobe, then Artest, Battier, and Yao would have fouled our of Games 3 and 4.
 
Because if the refs called it as it's happening, Roy'd be going to the line 26 times a night instead of 8-12. The guys doing the handchecking aren't getting called for it. Some random scrub is getting called for the contact that happens after the foul. They're calling reputation.

The simplest way of putting it: If Roy were Kobe, then Artest, Battier, and Yao would have fouled our of Games 3 and 4.

Don't over do it. Because we've played the Lakers and that didn't happen.

This isn't middle school basketball, this is the NBA. Some of you Blazers fans need to realize that and Brandon Roy isn't as good as Kobe, like this forum seems to think.
 
What the grabbing, hip checking and pushing do is throw off the timing of the offense. You don't need to impede someone to be effective. If you can delay them from getting to the spot they want to by a split second, you've succeeded. And those things are all fouls.
 
Don't over do it. Because we've played the Lakers and that didn't happen.

This isn't middle school basketball, this is the NBA. Some of you Blazers fans need to realize that and Brandon Roy isn't as good as Kobe, like this forum seems to think.

Roy this year performed as well as Kobe this year in a a few statistical categories (clutch FG%, PER). Career-wise, Roy isn't there. Obviously.

Regardless, your team has a reputation, and is being given the benefit because of that reputation. Don't deny it.
 
Don't over do it. Because we've played the Lakers and that didn't happen.

That's because you adjusted to play K*be. You wouldn't play him the same way.

This isn't middle school basketball, this is the NBA. Some of you Blazers fans need to realize that and Brandon Roy isn't as good as Kobe, like this forum seems to think.

Look, I hate K*be more than any other player in the NBA, but he's on a different level than Roy. I haven't seen anyone on this forum suggest today Brandon Roy is better than KoMe Cryant.
 
What the grabbing, hip checking and pushing do is throw off the timing of the offense. You don't need to impede someone to be effective. If you can delay them from getting to the spot they want to by a split second, you've succeeded. And those things are all fouls.

And thats why Oden and Pryzbilla are always in foul trouble. Especially Oden, how can people even make a case for him?

JVG put it best when he said "Oden is going to foul out of any NBA game he will play." :lol:
 
Thats true, you're right. But what I don't understand is... Roy is getting to the line more than anyone in the series, so why the complaints?
You realized just because Roy is getting to thin line, doesn't prove that Artest and Battier aren't getting away with a lot of fouls. This is extreme, but say they committed a foul every time Roy drove the ball, but they only got called for half of them. Roy would get 10-14ft attempts, but would have missed out on another 10-14ft attempts that he earned as well.

If that started to happen, Houston would have to help earlier and more often, leaving others wide open.
 
And thats why Oden and Pryzbilla are always in foul trouble. Especially Oden, how can people even make a case for him?

JVG put it best when he said "Oden is going to foul out of any NBA game he will play."
:lol:

Yeah, that was such a great call because he's fouled out in less than 10% of his games. JVG nailed it didn't he???
 
Yeah, that was such a great call because he's fouled out in less than 10% of his games. JVG nailed it didn't he???

He sure did because Oden doesn't know how to play defense without fouling. Whats his foul per game average?

You realized just because Roy is getting to thin line, doesn't prove that Artest and Battier aren't getting away with a lot of fouls. This is extreme, but say they committed a foul every time Roy drove the ball, but they only got called for half of them. Roy would get 10-14ft attempts, but would have missed out on another 10-14ft attempts that he earned as well.

If that started to happen, Houston would have to help earlier and more often, leaving others wide open.

Yeah, definitely, Roy should be going to the free throw line 30 times per game. Since thats the only way Blazers can earn points. Keep complaining...according to your DOUBLE theory - Oden should be fouled out not once, but twice because I'm sure refs miss the other half of the times he fouls Yao. Oh, and dont forget Joel.
 
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He sure did because Oden doesn't know how to play defense without fouling. Whats his foul per game average?

What was Yao's during his rookie year?

EDIT 2.8, not bad. But he's averaging 3.3 this year. I suppose it's a lot higher in losses, like Game 2, huh?

EDIT: Oh look, he averages the same number of fouls in wins and losses. WHY IS HE GETTING SO FEW NOW?
 
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He sure did because Oden doesn't know how to play defense without fouling. Whats his foul per game average?
I thought he said he will foul out in every game? Do you think being right 10% of the time is a good percentage?
 
What was Yao's during his rookie year?

EDIT 2.8, not bad. But he's averaging 3.3 this year. I suppose it's a lot higher in losses, like Game 2, huh?

EDIT: Oh look, he averages the same number of fouls in wins and losses. WHY IS HE GETTING SO FEW NOW?
Probably better than Oden, but it doesn't have anything to do with JVG statement being wrong.

That would be like me saying Roy is going to score 30 points in every game this season, and then have him do it 8 times. I don't know who would consider that an accurate statement or prediction.
 
Probably better than Oden, but it doesn't have anything to do with JVG statement being wrong.

That would be like me saying Roy is going to score 30 points in every game this season, and then have him do it 8 times. I don't know who would consider that an accurate statement or prediction.

You're right. I'll stop trying to muddy the waters.
 
I thought he said he will foul out in every game? Do you think being right 10% of the time is a good percentage?
As you know, JVG jokes around a lot - hence my " :lol " smiley. OBVIOUSLY no player will foul out in every game they play, but 10% is quite high, dont you think? Yao doesn't even come close to that. So yeahhhhh... point made clear.

What was Yao's during his rookie year?

EDIT 2.8, not bad. But he's averaging 3.3 this year. I suppose it's a lot higher in losses, like Game 2, huh?

EDIT: Oh look, he averages the same number of fouls in wins and losses. WHY IS HE GETTING SO FEW NOW?

I suppose it might be higher in losses because Yao is an important part of the Rockets. However, you can't really be accurate about that in this series as Rockets have only lost 1 :) . Now, if you want to collect stats about Oden, that will be more accurate since Blazers have lost 3 and that makes the data more accurate. Sorry, didn't want to rub it in.
 
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As you know, JVG jokes around a lot - hence my " :lol " smiley. OBVIOUSLY no player will foul out in every game they play, but 10% is quite high, dont you think? Yao doesn't even come close to that. So yeahhhhh... point made clear.



I suppose it might be higher in losses because Yao is an important part of the Rockets. However, you can't really be accurate about that in this series as Rockets have only lost 1 :) . Now, if you want to collect stats about Oden, that will be more accurate since Blazers have lost 3 and that makes the data more accurate. Sorry, didn't want to rub it in.
Your point is that Oden has had foul troubles in his rookie year?

Thanks for the breaking news, I'm sure no Blazer fan was aware of that. On your next post, you can tell us that Brandon Roy is our best player.

And don't try to say that just because Greg has made stupid fouls during the season automatically clears up some of the horrible calls that have gone against him in this series. It doesn't work like that...
 
Some of you Blazers fans need to realize that and Brandon Roy isn't as good as Kobe, like this forum seems to think.

Why does that matter? Where in the quoted rules does it state that the definition of a foul changes based on the players involved?

BNM
 
I suppose it might be higher in losses because Yao is an important part of the Rockets. However, you can't really be accurate about that in this series as Rockets have only lost 1 :) . Now, if you want to collect stats about Oden, that will be more accurate since Blazers have lost 3 and that makes the data more accurate. Sorry, didn't want to rub it in.

I used regular season data. Obviously in the playoffs, Yao is treated much differently.
 
I used regular season data. Obviously in the playoffs, Yao is treated much differently.

According to Pryzbilla (before game 4), you're right that he was being treated differently:

http://trailblazerscentercourt.blogspot.com/2009/04/playoff-basketball-fact-or-fiction.html

When we won Game 2 we were very physical with them,” said Przybilla. “They let a lot of stuff go. I’m telling you, it’s a lot more physical. They’re letting a lot more slide. Bigs have been in foul trouble because when we’re playing against Yao, you’re going to get in foul trouble.
 
And thats what we see happening, they don't AFFECT Brandon Roy's movement.

You conveniently left out the most important part of the rule:

"A defender may momentarily touch an opponent with his hand anywhere on the court as long as it does not affect the opponent’s movement (speed, quickness, balance, rhythm)."

When Roy drives the lane and gets hand checked (or hip checked), it does throw off his balance and rhythm - and accoring to the rules, it's a foul.

BNM
 
And thats why Oden and Pryzbilla are always in foul trouble. Especially Oden, how can people even make a case for him?

Then why aren't Scola, Artest and Battier also in foul trouble?
 
If Houston wins the series then they will understand why we are not happy about the calls. Kobe is going to be at the line 15-20 times a game, they will feel the pain that we feel when the ticky tacky bullshit gets called on Greg and Joel. Shane and Ronnie are gonna get rung up just like our guys did.
 
A foul is Yao hipchecking Outlaw BLATANTLY and the three blind mice not calling it.
 

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