What is wrong with CJ?

[TBpup]

'Real Blazer fans'? Somewhere reality has to come into it at some point. Being Pollyanna 100% of the time doesn't make one any more of a Blazer fan than anyone else.

 

[julius]

'Real Blazer fans'? Somewhere reality has to come into it at some point. Being Pollyanna 100% of the time doesn't make one any more of a Blazer fan than anyone else.

Very much agreed. I've hated it when people say someone can't be a fan because they're not 100% homers. Conversely, I also hate those who claim they're more of a fan BECAUSE they "call it like it is", etc.

My understanding of the teams history, and my level of fandom, is different than yours (and everyone elses). Doesn't mean I'm more or less of a fan of the team, or that you're more or less of a fan of the team than I am.

It's a difference of opinion.

 

[BonesJones]

'Real Blazer fans'? Somewhere reality has to come into it at some point. Being Pollyanna 100% of the time doesn't make one any more of a Blazer fan than anyone else.

Gotta love how CJ shut him down haha.

 

[42N8Bounce]

First off, I want to say I like CJ. I think he represents the team and the city well. He might be a bit overpaid though.

My first question is - 'Is he a ball hog?' I guess to define that, it depends on how much he's passing (Assists) vs how much he's taking a bad shot (Missed FG or Turnover). 2018-19 league average for (Assists) / (Turnover + Missed FG) was 0.40.



Looking at this graph, CJ certainly fits into what I would define as a 'ball hog'. He's well below the league average of 0.40.

But is being a ball hog bad if you're also making a lot of shots? Okay, lets factor in made FG. 2018-19 league average for (Assists + Made FG) / (Turnovers + Missed FG) was 1.06.



Even factoring in CJs made shots, it doesn't seem to make up for his volume of turnovers and missed shots. He's below league average in both metrics. What these metrics don't factor in is value of the shot (3 pointer or a 2 pointer), drawing fouls (free throws shot and made), and value of the assist (was the assist to a person making a 3 pointer, or a 2 pointer). But that gets into a pretty complex data set, and I'm trying to keep it at a high level and relatively simple.

Overall, I agree. CJ needs to look to improve the quality of his shots and pass the ball more.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

First off, I want to say I like CJ. I think he represents the team and the city well. He might be a bit overpaid though.

My first question is - 'Is he a ball hog?' I guess to define that, it depends on how much he's passing (Assists) vs how much he's taking a bad shot (Missed FG or Turnover). 2018-19 league average for (Assists) / (Turnover + Missed FG) was 0.40.

View attachment 28401

Looking at this graph, CJ certainly fits into what I would define as a 'ball hog'. He's well below the league average of 0.40.

But is being a ball hog bad if you're also making a lot of shots? Okay, lets factor in made FG. 2018-19 league average for (Assists + Made FG) / (Turnovers + Missed FG) was 1.06.

View attachment 28402

Even factoring in CJs made shots, it doesn't seem to make up for his volume of turnovers and missed shots. He's below league average in both metrics. What these metrics don't factor in is value of the shot (3 pointer or a 2 pointer), drawing fouls (free throws shot and made), and value of the assist (was the assist to a person making a 3 pointer, or a 2 pointer). But that gets into a pretty complex data set, and I'm trying to keep it at a high level and relatively simple.

Overall, I agree. CJ needs to look to improve the quality of his shots and pass the ball more.

Do you use Matlab(probably overkill for this)or Pandas(Python), or Excel? Love your work!

 

[42N8Bounce]

Do you use Matlab(probably overkill for this)or Pandas(Python), or Excel? Love your work!

Thanks! I just grab the data mostly from https://www.basketball-reference.com/ and slap it into Excel. I like graphing things out and comparing them to averages to put them into context.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Thanks! I just grab the data mostly from https://www.basketball-reference.com/ and slap it into Excel. I like graphing things out and comparing them to averages to put them into context.

I noticed you stepped your game up with some images back there! You put together some great graphs its always fun to look at. Keep hoping you find a stat someday that creates like a perfect sin wave lol

 

[Blazers1977]

total bullshit

in that Denver series, CJ's had a .530 TS%; Dame was at .528 (when the league average is around .550). CJ averaged 1.12 points/shot; Dame averaged 1.21. CJ averaged 3 assists; Dame averaged 6. LOL....that's what you're calling "Dame disappeared" and "CJ on fire". Just ridiculous, but then that's what happens when Dame is held to a standard about 3 tiers higher than CJ's. I remember that same false narrative right after the Denver series coming from fans...."Dame played like shit and CJ was on fire!". CJ did average 1.3 points more than Dame, but he needed 3 more shots a game to do so....yeah man, on fire!!

https://www.basketball-reference.co...ence-semifinals-trail-blazers-vs-nuggets.html



I'm not "blaming" CJ for the losses to the Warriors. I've seen you talk up game-7-CJ in about a half dozen different posts today. I'm saying that CJ is not nearly as good as that game 7. Certainly, he's not as bad as the 9-game-CJ this season. But mainly, I was tired of you trying to frame things as people having turned on CJ just because of this season. People here aren't that stupid and shallow, and their memories are longer

Dame got 25 ppg that series, CJ got 27. Dame was 28% from 3 and 40% from field. CJ was 45% and 37% from 3. CJ easily had the better series. It’s amazing how you can spin numbers.

your memory doesn’t seem very long. CJ has had about ~25ppg in the last 8 straight playoff series. You have unrealistic expectations and care far too much about analytics and regular season games.

 

[julius]

your memory doesn’t seem very long. CJ has had about ~25ppg in the last 8 straight playoff series. You have unrealistic expectations and care far too much about analytics and regular season games.

That's a neat sounding stat, 'cept that it's not true. I'll ignore that you rounded UP for CJ, and rounded down for Damian in that series (it was 25.14 vs 26.4, for a difference of 1.26 ppg difference. And if you take out game 7, Damian averaged more ppg than CJ did).

But I want to concentrate on the comment about he has has "about ~25 ppg" in his last 8 playoff series:
1 1st round vs MEM: 17 (he only started 1 game here)
2 1st round vs LAC: 19.6
3 Semis vs GSW: 21.4
4 1st round vs GSW: 22.5
5 1st round vs NOP: 25.5
6 1st round vs OKC: 24.4
7 Semis against Denver: 26.4
8 Conference finals against GSW: 22

So that's 2 series where he averaged 25, and 3 out of 8 that he averaged close to 25.

That's not to say he didn't have good playoff series but if you're going to continually use his playoff run last year as reason we're not allowed to be critical of his play so far this season, at least get the facts right.

 

[Blazers1977]

That's a neat sounding stat, 'cept that it's not true. I'll ignore that you rounded UP for CJ, and rounded down for Damian in that series (it was 25.14 vs 26.4, for a difference of 1.26 ppg difference. And if you take out game 7, Damian averaged more ppg than CJ did).

But I want to concentrate on the comment about he has has "about ~25 ppg" in his last 8 playoff series:
1 1st round vs MEM: 17 (he only started 1 game here)
2 1st round vs LAC: 19.6
3 Semis vs GSW: 21.4
4 1st round vs GSW: 22.5
5 1st round vs NOP: 25.5
6 1st round vs OKC: 24.4
7 Semis against Denver: 26.4
8 Conference finals against GSW: 22

So that's 2 series where he averaged 25, and 3 out of 8 that he averaged close to 25.

That's not to say he didn't have good playoff series but if you're going to continually use his playoff run last year as reason we're not allowed to be critical of his play so far this season, at least get the facts right.

3 out of 8? Lmao 6 out of the 8 he had at least 21... in the seven series he started he averaged 23.1 ppg. I said “ABOUT” 25. You’re being obtuse.

also I like how you’re ignoring Dame’s shooting percentages (28% from 3) were atrocious in the Denver series but acting like I’m being super misleading for rounding down .14 on Dame’s ppg.

its clear you guys will spin stats to unfairly hate on CJ. I don’t know what he did to you.

 

[julius]

3 out of 8? Lmao 6 out of the 8 he had at least 21... in the seven series he started he averaged 23.1 ppg. I said “ABOUT” 25. You’re being obtuse.

also I like how you’re ignoring Dame’s shooting percentages (28% from 3) were atrocious in the Denver series but acting like I’m being super misleading for rounding down .14 on Dame’s ppg.

its clear you guys will spin stats to unfairly hate on CJ. I don’t know what he did to you.

So you're spinning up the averages again, and changing the goal line.

I think you're mistaking criticisms of his game (and his poor start) with "hate". But whatever floats your boat.

 

[Dutchman063]

Cut the check... dude got paid

 

[Blazers1977]

So you're spinning up the averages again, and changing the goal line.

I think you're mistaking criticisms of his game (and his poor start) with "hate". But whatever floats your boat.

when you’re accusing me of “spinning” and “moving goal posts” bc I said “ABOUT 25 ppg in last 8 series” and it was ACTUALLY 23.1 ppg in the last SEVEN series, you know you lost the argument.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Maybe he reads this forum and lost the motivation to play for a bunch of people who don't believe in him, don't like him,don't appreciate him and want to trade him for Tim Frazier ?

 

[julius]

when you’re accusing me of “spinning” and “moving goal posts” bc I said “ABOUT 25 ppg in last 8 series” and it was ACTUALLY 23.1 ppg in the last SEVEN series, you know you lost the argument.

learn the difference between mean, median and mode please.

 

[hoopsjock]

Maybe he reads this forum and lost the motivation to play for a bunch of people who don't believe in him, don't like him,don't appreciate him and want to trade him for Tim Frazier ?

Actually he posted on Twitter
"Criticism is apart of the profession. I can handle it. Thank you much"

 

[James lamphear]

CJ playing like he always play for past 3 years. He start out slow last year from 3 point shot. Cj never been a great passer when often his attempt it leads to a turnover. But I really blame CJ that I do blame the offense scheme. The offense is more for guards to do the heavy lifting for shot attempts. The other part is the PNR but the big problem our centers don't run it very well. But right now we got a lot players are iso type players. Defensely we are missing Nurk and Zach due the other team exploiting our primeter players because we got either average or below average at playing defense. These other teams are not scare of Whiteside back there like they with Nurk and Zach. Yes Whiteside might get you 2-3 blocks a game but majority the time he doesn't even challenge the shot due he usually have his hands down the other teams no that Nurk and Zach will challenge the shot by either getting the block or alternate the shot. So us losing is not all on CJ it is collection of a lot of things making us to loose games.

 

[42N8Bounce]

CJ playing like he always play for past 3 years. He start out slow last year from 3 point shot.

Yep. CJ started off slow last year, and didn't get into a consistent rhythm until about 15 games into the season. He's a bit behind last years trend, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt integrating so many new players into the system. CJ is a vet. He'll kick it in soon, hopefully.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Yep. CJ started off slow last year, and didn't get into a consistent rhythm until about 15 games into the season. He's a bit behind last years trend, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt integrating so many new players into the system. CJ is a vet. He'll kick it in soon, hopefully.

View attachment 28411

I have no doubt, his shot will start falling on a more regular basis, what I question with him is rebounding, defense, effort when he's not getting the ball. I do not hate CJ, and obviously as a Blazer fan I want him to do well, and I cheer for him. His shot falling will help to negate the negatives (HAHAHA).

 

[H.C.]

Meyers Leonard isn't on the team.
CJ becomes even more of the forum whipping boy.
I expect this from @TBpup as no matter what CJ does will never be good enough for him.
Guy loved that Portland beat Denver, but hated that CJ was the main reason for it.' Oh he adds something to the team when he's scoring see I told you so!'
But from other posters? Disappointing. CJ started slow last year also iirc.
He will never be Lillard, and he is far from being Monte Ellis. CJ can actually shoot from outside of 10ft.

These takes however of. 'Does CJ really care about winning or does he care just about stats?.
Kind of go against the culture Portland has created with Lillard & CJ.
Both players constantly say they'll defer to the other when one is going. It's also obvious to see when they're on the court together.
These takes are one of the worst to ever exist on the s2 forum.

You can criticize CJ about a lot of things. Defense, and passing are two of those things.
But caring about winning over getting his own?
That's just an asinine take.
But someone has to get the blame for the 3-6 start.
Nevermind the fact that Portland had the most roster turnover sense Aldridge left.
Which leads to early struggles.
Knew takes like this were coming.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Meyers Leonard isn't on the team.
CJ becomes even more of the forum whipping boy.
I expect this from @TBpup as no matter what CJ does will never be good enough for him.
Guy loved that Portland beat Denver, but hated that CJ was the main reason for it.' Oh he adds something to the team when he's scoring see I told you so!'
But from other posters? Disappointing. CJ started slow last year also iirc.
He will never be Lillard, and he is far from being Monte Ellis. CJ can actually shoot from outside of 10ft.

These takes however of. 'Does CJ really care about winning or does he care just about stats?.
Kind of go against the culture Portland has created with Lillard & CJ.
Both players constantly say they'll defer to the other when one is going. It's also obvious to see when they're on the court together.
These takes are one of the worst to ever exist on the s2 forum.

You can criticize CJ about a lot of things. Defense, and passing are two of those things.
But caring about winning over getting his own?
That's just an asinine take.
But someone has to get the blame for the 3-6 start.
Nevermind the fact that Portland had the most roster turnover sense Aldridge left.
Which leads to early struggles.
Knew takes like this were coming.

When hoops asked about CJ’s desire to win, it was framed as a question not an opinion.

I suppose by calling it into question, that means you’re showing signs of doubt.

 

[hoopsjock]

Meyers Leonard isn't on the team.
CJ becomes even more of the forum whipping boy.
I expect this from @TBpup as no matter what CJ does will never be good enough for him.
Guy loved that Portland beat Denver, but hated that CJ was the main reason for it.' Oh he adds something to the team when he's scoring see I told you so!'
But from other posters? Disappointing. CJ started slow last year also iirc.
He will never be Lillard, and he is far from being Monte Ellis. CJ can actually shoot from outside of 10ft.

These takes however of. 'Does CJ really care about winning or does he care just about stats?.
Kind of go against the culture Portland has created with Lillard & CJ.
Both players constantly say they'll defer to the other when one is going. It's also obvious to see when they're on the court together.
These takes are one of the worst to ever exist on the s2 forum.

You can criticize CJ about a lot of things. Defense, and passing are two of those things.
But caring about winning over getting his own?
That's just an asinine take.
But someone has to get the blame for the 3-6 start.
Nevermind the fact that Portland had the most roster turnover sense Aldridge left.
Which leads to early struggles.
Knew takes like this were coming.

After last game, CJ said he needed to get in the lab and keep working on his shot. Not one word about passing or getting his teammates involved when things aren't going well.

Before last season he acknowledged that he needs to be a better passer and he hasn't mentioned it since as his assist percentage continues to plummet.

CJ could have a much bigger impact on the game then he does. It's magnified when he doesn't make shots. Coming out of his slump doesn't fix his passing or defense and like I've stated many times he'd get better shots if he passed more too.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Actually he posted on Twitter
"Criticism is apart of the profession. I can handle it. Thank you much"

Whatever is happening in this forum for the last few weeks doesn't qualify as "Criticism". It's a bunch of people yelling for trades and taking a dump on CJ and other players on the team, really feels like a Rockets' fans forum.


You really think that CJ or Lillard wouldn't tell most of the people here to GTFO in real life? please...

 

[TBpup]

Meyers Leonard isn't on the team.
CJ becomes even more of the forum whipping boy.
I expect this from @TBpup as no matter what CJ does will never be good enough for him.

Thanks for the shout out...but this is completely #FakeNews. "No matter what CJ does" is dead wrong. And I've complimented him on his ability to score and posted numerous times I think he would be quite good as a #1 on his own team. If he improves his passing instead of going 1-on-3 at times when teammates who have just made shots are wide open, I've be quite happy with him. But he has done VERY little of that over the last 3 years. He obviously can score (when he is hot) but can shoot a team right out of a game as well....and unlike Dame, does very little else to help his team win.

Nice try....but not close.

 

[HailBlazers]

Thanks for the shout out...but this is completely #FakeNews. "No matter what CJ does" is dead wrong. And I've complimented him on his ability to score and posted numerous times I think he would be quite good as a #1 on his own team. If he improves his passing instead of going 1-on-3 at times when teammates who have just made shots are wide open, I've be quite happy with him. But he has done VERY little of that over the last 3 years. He obviously can score (when he is hot) but can shoot a team right out of a game as well....and unlike Dame, does very little else to help his team win.

Nice try....but not close.

So you're saying he just needs to find his shot?

 

[AldoTrapani]

My thing is why doesn’t Dame talk to this dude? He’s the leader and that’s his good friend I thought, so why not ask Lillard what have you guys been doing to address CJ lack of playmaking and getting assists up

 

[Blazers1977]

learn the difference between mean, median and mode please.

Oh shit he’s dropping 6th grade math knowledge! the mean is 23.1 dude

you lost the argument. Now you’re quibbling bc I said “about 25” instead of “23.1”

you could just admit CJ has done well in the playoffs

 

[H.C.]

When hoops asked about CJ’s desire to win, it was framed as a question not an opinion.

I suppose by calling it into question, that means you’re showing signs of doubt.

False assumption by you.
I've long been one of the few on this forum who've constantly said. CJ & Lillard can work together. That they are nothing like Monte Ellis and Curry.
That neither of them hunt stats, both constantly say and have shown on the court their team first players.

I simply stated how much of a stupid question it was to ask.
It's why I don't listen to the radio media who ask questions like this to get call-ins.

Criticizing a player's play. Is different than calling them selfish.

 

[H.C.]

After last game, CJ said he needed to get in the lab and keep working on his shot. Not one word about passing or getting his teammates involved when things aren't going well.

Before last season he acknowledged that he needs to be a better passer and he hasn't mentioned it since as his assist percentage continues to plummet.

CJ could have a much bigger impact on the game then he does. It's magnified when he doesn't make shots. Coming out of his slump doesn't fix his passing or defense and like I've stated many times he'd get better shots if he passed more too.

Coming out of the slump he's in will certainly help portland win games will it not?
See Denver series v OKC series.
CJ's job on this team is to score & space the floor for Lillard.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

False assumption by you.
I've long been one of the few on this forum who've constantly said. CJ & Lillard can work together. That they are nothing like Monte Ellis and Curry.
That neither of them hunt stats, both constantly say and have shown on the court their team first players.

I simply stated how much of a stupid question it was to ask.
It's why I don't listen to the radio media who ask questions like this to get call-ins.

Criticizing a player's play. Is different than calling them selfish.

I think you misread what I said. The idea was by Hoops asking the question, you could infer that he was having doubts about CJ’s motives.

Ive never been super high on the Dame/ CJ combo, but I think it can work in the right situation.