Rumor What's going on in Portland?

[THE HCP]

Just spent two days in Milwaukee and Cleveland….downtowns are brutal. Both have/had malls connected to our hotels. Both run down 3/4 empty and boarded up. Asked the hotel bellman at both… they said COVID and the protests just kinda was the end.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We have trains all over the place. Max, and streetcars. There are many examples of cities all over the world with even worse conditions than Portland which have far better mass transit.

In fact, the whole Portland Metro area was covered by streetcars in the 50s and 60s

Sure but they are already in place in those cities. We already have what we have and traffic sucks. So how do we expand the mass transit more/enough to really make an impact?
Are you advocating we dig up all the roads in the metro area and reinstall streetcar tracks? I see that as being an enormous cost. Plus so many more commute from further out these days. Just because something worked then(largely presuburbia) doesnt mean it will work today.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Sure but they are already in place in those cities. We already have what we have and traffic sucks. So how do we expand the mass transit more/enough to really make an impact?
Are you advocating we dig up all the roads in the metro area and reinstall streetcar tracks? I see that as being an enormous cost. Plus so many more commute from further out these days. Just because something worked then(largely presuburbia) doesnt mean it will work today.

Most of those cities had infrastructure in place before they built their mass transit. It can be managed. Burnsides is already being shut down. I'd suggest making sure it would support High Speed rail in that time.

But overall, I would suggest making what we have much faster than driving. Having express routes that don't stop at every stop, while the ones which do stop pull off the main track to load and unload, allowing the express routes to bypass at full speed.

There are solutions to improve what we have.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler renews plea for in-person work downtown

By

• Shane Dixon Kavanaugh | The Oregonian/OregonLive

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler on Thursday renewed his standing call for downtown employers to bring workers back to their offices at least half-time starting Jan. 1, a step the city took with its own 7,000 employees earlier this year.

“Your role in our central city’s recovery and revitalization is critical,” Wheeler wrote in a letter aimed at private businesses, nonprofits, other government bodies and academic institutions that have continued to balk at in-person work requirements.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler renews plea for in-person work downtown

By

• Shane Dixon Kavanaugh | The Oregonian/OregonLive

Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler on Thursday renewed his standing call for downtown employers to bring workers back to their offices at least half-time starting Jan. 1, a step the city took with its own 7,000 employees earlier this year.

“Your role in our central city’s recovery and revitalization is critical,” Wheeler wrote in a letter aimed at private businesses, nonprofits, other government bodies and academic institutions that have continued to balk at in-person work requirements.

What an idiot. Force people to be there... that's the ticket...

 

[Kano John]

Pretty sure cars kill many more people than guns. Banem all.

Difference is - I've never heard of a car killing people inside of a school, mall, theater etc.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Most of those cities had infrastructure in place before they built their mass transit. It can be managed. Burnsides is already being shut down. I'd suggest making sure it would support High Speed rail in that time.

But overall, I would suggest making what we have much faster than driving. Having express routes that don't stop at every stop, while the ones which do stop pull off the main track to load and unload, allowing the express routes to bypass at full speed.

There are solutions to improve what we have.

when is the last time you attended an event at the moda?

can you show me on a map just where the space geographically you think you can get for these additions?

Ive lived in a few larger cities in the us. Portland is by far the worst ive seen to be set ip for expansion. But your express routes didnt answer the trollies question.
I just hard disagree this could happen.
There are solutions to everything. Doesn't mean they are realistic.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Difference is - I've never heard of a car killing people inside of a school, mall, theater etc.

Ive never seen a gun do that either. Ive seen people do that.
Dont dismiss the root of the sarcasm.

 

[andalusian]

Just spent two days in Milwaukee and Cleveland….downtowns are brutal. Both have/had malls connected to our hotels. Both run down 3/4 empty and boarded up. Asked the hotel bellman at both… they said COVID and the protests just kinda was the end.

That is not Portland. #BAM

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[oldfisherman]

This could be a big storm, and predicted to dump snow at our 3,000 ft el home, for 8 days in row.

Just returned from making a supply run so we will be comfy for the next 2 weeks. Also prepping the tractor so we can dig out.

BTW, the drive today was beautiful. All of the trees are covered in frost, just like a picture on a Xmas card.

 

[Phatguysrule]

when is the last time you attended an event at the moda?

can you show me on a map just where the space geographically you think you can get for these additions?

Ive lived in a few larger cities in the us. Portland is by far the worst ive seen to be set ip for expansion. But your express routes didnt answer the trollies question.
I just hard disagree this could happen.
There are solutions to everything. Doesn't mean they are realistic.

We have a ton of parking that wouldn't be needed if mass transit were faster than driving. But we generally have plenty of room for a max train to pull off at most max stations. If not, you can make the pull off the next block over. Or even 2 blocks over. Or at a park. No big deal, it's pulling off anyway.

And again, once you make it better, you won't need as much parking and you'll gain a TON of space back. Far more than some max stops would ever take up.

There are solutions. Very realistic solutions, if that's what we actually wanted to do.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This could be a big storm, and predicted to dump snow at our 3,000 ft el home, for 8 days in row.

Just returned from making a supply run so we will be comfy for the next 2 weeks. Also prepping the tractor so we can dig out.

BTW, the drive today was beautiful. All of the trees are covered in frost, just like a picture on a Xmas card.

Sounds wonderful.

 

[barfo]

Dont dismiss the root of the sarcasm.

Sorry but the leaves are much tastier.

barfo

 

[oldfisherman]

Sounds wonderful.

Yup!

Just recieved a weather warning on the cell phone.

Expect "significant snowfall" by tomorrow morning. Winter has arrived.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

We have a ton of parking that wouldn't be needed if mass transit were faster than driving. But we generally have plenty of room for a max train to pull off at most max stations. If not, you can make the pull off the next block over. Or even 2 blocks over. Or at a park. No big deal, it's pulling off anyway.

And again, once you make it better, you won't need as much parking and you'll gain a TON of space back. Far more than some max stops would ever take up.

There are solutions. Very realistic solutions, if that's what we actually wanted to do.

Hard disagree. More stop pulloffs on the existing routes isnt gonna help and there is no room for it on 84.
there needs to be more lines. One down 26, both east and west sides. Max needs to finish the loop from clackamas down to oregon city and back to milwaukie. There needs to be a line along 217. There needs to be a line further out connecting tualatin sherwood out to 185th.
There needs to be a line going from gresham/troutdale out to sunnyside.

if the lines dont run to where the people are, your not gonna get the bulk of people to hop in their car and drive to a parking lot near a max. Park and rides are very unsafe these days. They are just gonna drive to thier end destination.

To me that is the only realistic mass transit solution. What you are saying makes zero sense when looking at a map, to me.

As far as the moda having space, dude im a season ticket holder. I think you are not seeing it. 84, i5, the river. The grain elevator. The steel bridge. The convention center. There is zero parking on that side. Its all on the north side of the moda. So removing those parking lots will do nothing for the max, unless your gonna run it through the moda. So i again see no way its realistic.
The burnside bridge is near the steel bridge so not sure how adding a max where would help much, but even if it would. Thats one bridge. Not a route. The costs of all of this would be astronomical and take a decade plus.
BUt the thing is, this conversation was about that post regarding accidents, not traffic congestion.
Pulling some cars off the road isnt going to stagnate the aggressive drivers.
The reality is drivers know there is zero traffic policing presence and are driving more reckless than ever. I see it every day. People breaking laws to gain a selfish car length or spot.
So not only do i think that you are way off about the expenses and feasibility of mass transit being expanded significantly more than it is,
It still wont solve the aggressive/reckless drivers.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Hard disagree. More stop pulloffs on the existing routes isnt gonna help and there is no room for it on 84.
there needs to be more lines. One down 26, both east and west sides. Max needs to finish the loop from clackamas down to oregon city and back to milwaukie. There needs to be a line along 217. There needs to be a line further out connecting tualatin sherwood out to 185th.
There needs to be a line going from gresham/troutdale out to sunnyside.

if the lines dont run to where the people are, your not gonna get the bulk of people to hop in their car and drive to a parking lot near a max. Park and rides are very unsafe these days. They are just gonna drive to thier end destination.

To me that is the only realistic mass transit solution. What you are saying makes zero sense when looking at a map, to me.

As far as the moda having space, dude im a season ticket holder. I think you are not seeing it. 84, i5, the river. The grain elevator. The steel bridge. The convention center. There is zero parking on that side. Its all on the north side of the moda. So removing those parking lots will do nothing for the max, unless your gonna run it through the moda. So i again see no way its realistic.
The burnside bridge is near the steel bridge so not sure how adding a max where would help much, but even if it would. Thats one bridge. Not a route. The costs of all of this would be astronomical and take a decade plus.
BUt the thing is, this conversation was about that post regarding accidents, not traffic congestion.
Pulling some cars off the road isnt going to stagnate the aggressive drivers.
The reality is drivers know there is zero traffic policing presence and are driving more reckless than ever. I see it every day. People breaking laws to gain a selfish car length or spot.
So not only do i think that you are way off about the expenses and feasibility of mass transit being expanded significantly more than it is,
It still wont solve the aggressive/reckless drivers.

I didn't say more stops. You need express routes with FEWER stops, that go MUCH faster. You just need to get the stopped trains off of the tracks so express trains can blow through.

Right now it takes over an hour and a half to get from Hillsboro to Gresham on the max. There should be an express train every hour that does it in 30 minutes. Clackamas Town Center to Portland Airport takes nearly an hour. There should be an express that does it in 15 minutes.

You should be able to get anywhere in the portland metro area in 30 minutes on the MAX, and pretty much anywhere with the help of electric buses.

Nobody with means is going to take a 2hr trip from Hillsboro to Gresham.

There is absolutely no reason to add more shitty slow routes to what we already have. Nobody is going to ride it. I'm certainly not.

I'm not concerned about the aggressive drivers. As adaptive cruise control improves people are going to be much safer on the roads anyway.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I didn't say more stops. You need express routes with FEWER stops, that go MUCH faster. You just need to get the stopped trains off of the tracks so express trains can blow through.

Right now it takes over an hour and a half to get from Hillsboro to Gresham on the max. There should be an express train every hour that does it in 30 minutes. Clackamas Town Center to Portland Airport takes nearly an hour. There should be an express that does it in 15 minutes.

You should be able to get anywhere in the portland metro area in 30 minutes on the MAX, and pretty much anywhere with the help of electric buses.

Nobody with means is going to take a 2hr trip from Hillsboro to Gresham.

There is absolutely no reason to add more shitty slow routes to what we already have. Nobody is going to ride it. I'm certainly not.

I'm not concerned about the aggressive drivers. As adaptive cruise control improves people are going to be much safer on the roads anyway.

where on earth are you getting this info?????

https://trimet.org/schedules/maxredline.htm

View attachment 60035

Portland TriMet operates a vehicle from Gresham City Hall station to Pioneer Square North station every 20 minutes. Tickets cost $1 - $3 and the journey takes 47 min.


You can take a vehicle from Clackamas Town Center Transit Center (Station) to Portland Airport (PDX) via Gateway/NE 99th Ave TC station in around 40 min. Alternatively, Portland TriMet operates a bus from Clackamas Town Center Transit Center to Parkrose/ Sumner Transit Center every 30 minutes. Tickets cost $1 - $3 and the journey takes 58 min.

with all this said, it looks like they are working on improving the moda/steel bridge area.
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/686885


But the biggest crux i see, aside from astronomical costs and little space along existing lines is… do you really think people are gonna drive from oc, sunnyside, st johns, sw portland etc, where the lines dont currently run to a park and ride to then sit next to someone else on a crowded train or bus en mass?

The privacy is priceless to many. Not to mention the stench of some people on the max and all the homelss transient issues portland has. Shit back in the 90’s there were transients just riding the max all day from gresham to downtown and back. I saw them. Can only imagine how that is in todays homeless climate.

no thanks.


Anyhow look at the map. The only way to really make a difference is to add lines to the areas that dont have them currently.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

This could be a big storm, and predicted to dump snow at our 3,000 ft el home, for 8 days in row.

Just returned from making a supply run so we will be comfy for the next 2 weeks. Also prepping the tractor so we can dig out.

BTW, the drive today was beautiful. All of the trees are covered in frost, just like a picture on a Xmas card.

Stay safe! Good to see you around here more often!

 

[Phatguysrule]

where on earth are you getting this info?????

https://trimet.org/schedules/maxredline.htm

View attachment 60035

Portland TriMet operates a vehicle from Gresham City Hall station to Pioneer Square North station every 20 minutes. Tickets cost $1 - $3 and the journey takes 47 min.


You can take a vehicle from Clackamas Town Center Transit Center (Station) to Portland Airport (PDX) via Gateway/NE 99th Ave TC station in around 40 min. Alternatively, Portland TriMet operates a bus from Clackamas Town Center Transit Center to Parkrose/ Sumner Transit Center every 30 minutes. Tickets cost $1 - $3 and the journey takes 58 min.

with all this said, it looks like they are working on improving the moda/steel bridge area.
https://www.portlandoregon.gov/transportation/article/686885


But the biggest crux i see, aside from astronomical costs and little space along existing lines is… do you really think people are gonna drive from oc, sunnyside, st johns, sw portland etc, where the lines dont currently run to a park and ride to then sit next to someone else on a crowded train or bus en mass?

The privacy is priceless to many. Not to mention the stench of some people on the max and all the homelss transient issues portland has. Shit back in the 90’s there were transients just riding the max all day from gresham to downtown and back. I saw them. Can only imagine how that is in todays homeless climate.

no thanks.

View attachment 60036
Anyhow look at the map. The only way to really make a difference is to add lines to the areas that dont have them currently.

I'm getting the times from Google maps. Which is actually accurate.

I've ridden the max and the bus plenty. I have family members who use it as their main source of transportation. Those times I posted are accurate.

I've parked and rode the max many times (just exploring with the kids). Or just taken the bus from OC to Clackamas Town Center then the max to the zoo or a Blazer game.

If it were faster than driving it would be worth it, even with these routes it would make getting around Portland nicer.

And then people would certainly want it expanded into their neighborhood. Now people fight the Max from coming to their neighborhood. It'll never expand to a neighborhood if the neighborhood doesn't want it.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I'm getting the times from Google maps. Which is actually accurate.

I've ridden the max and the bus plenty. I have family members who use it as their main source of transportation. Those times I posted are accurate.

I've parked and rode the max many times. Or just taken the bus from OC to Clackamas Town Center then the max to the zoo or a Blazer game.

If it were faster than driving it would be worth it, even with these routes it would make getting around Portland nicer.

And then people would certainly want it expanded into their neighborhood. Now people fight the Max from coming to their neighborhood. It'll never expand to a neighborhood if the neighborhood doesn't want it.

again. The issue isnt the speed, its the required transfers. If you ride the max, you know this.

Now people fight the Max from coming to their neighborhood. It'll never expand to a neighborhood if the neighborhood doesn't want it.

one of the many reasons i believe your desires are unrealistic.

 

[Phatguysrule]

again. The issue isnt the speed, its the required transfers. If you ride the max, you know this.

Which is why I've proposed off ramps for stopped trains. To allow for express routes that don't stop and far fewer and more efficient transfers.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Which is why I've proposed off ramps for stopped trains. To allow for express routes that don't stop and far fewer and more efficient transfers.

i countered that with lack of space and asked you to show me. You didn't. There is no space for things like that. None on 84 and virtually none on 205. The expenses would be enormous to but out businesses, demo and rebuild on 205. You have 92nd ave right there.
Im not saying its impossible, im saying the cost would be astronomical.
Plus there is no direct route, so pull offs wouldn't mean shit from clackams to pdx.

To me you make zero sense.

 

[barfo]

I say we get rid of the trains and freeways and neighborhood streets, and put in canals, lots of canals. Portland could be the Venice of the Northwest.

barfo

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

I say we get rid of the trains and freeways and neighborhood streets, and put in canals, lots of canals. Portland could be the Venice of the Northwest.

barfo

from what i hear its already in process over the next week or so! im all for it if i can roll down the streets on a seadoo!!!

 

[Phatguysrule]

i countered that with lack of space and asked you to show me. You didn't. There is no space for things like that. None on 84 and virtually none on 205. The expenses would be enormous to but out businesses, demo and rebuild on 205. You have 92nd ave right there.
Im not saying its impossible, im saying the cost would be astronomical.
Plus there is no direct route, so pull offs wouldn't mean shit from clackams to pdx.

To me you make zero sense.

Lol. There is plenty of space. That's already been addressed. We have far more parking than is needed.

No buying out businesses or demo would be necessary.

There is no transportation solution that would cost less than adding bypasses for our existing tracks. And there is nothing else we could do that would make public transportation more competitive with cars for as low cost.

At least nothing I've heard of.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Lol. There is plenty of space. That's already been addressed. We have far more parking than is needed.

No buying out businesses or demo would be necessary.

There is no transportation solution that would cost less than adding bypasses for our existing tracks. And there is nothing else we could do that would make public transportation more competitive with cars for as low cost.

At least nothing I've heard of.

Your opinion was addressed and countered. The facts were not. I asked you to outline the space. you didn't. I did. I defined the parking aspect near the moda.

Facts matter. Not opinions.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Your opinion was addressed and countered. The facts were not. I asked you to outline the space. you didn't. I did. I defined the parking aspect near the moda.

Facts matter. Not opinions.

Lol. If you don't know what a parking lot is I can't help you.

But here you go. Tons of space near Moda. And there is even more space around the other side.

And you'd only need a small part of one of these spaces.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Lol. If you don't know what a parking lot is I can't help you.

But here you go. Tons of space near Moda. And there is even more space around the other side.

And you'd only need a small part of one of these spaces.

ever done construction? Road work? I have for over half my life. I think you don't know how much space is required to do the work.
Your first screen shot alone circles underground parking as if its open space. That parking lot to the north is UNDER the memorial coliseum. I know cause thats where my parking pass is.

have you taken the max to a ballgame?
Its packed beyond packed already. How you think you can get more people to not drive and sardine can themselves in is puzzling to me.

we shall have to agree to disagree. The 205 upgrades alone show how much space was needed. They have been working on a new upgrade near gateway for a few years now. Drive Round there and see the space its requiring to add that other track.
Way more space required than in that first shot with the south parking lot.
We shall have to agree to disagree i think what you are advocating for is not realistic. Portland already has one of the best public transits per capita in the nation. How that can possibly doubled to make an impact is not realistic to me without a bunch more routes going to areas without the max. A few jer stream maxes will not work without an astronomical cost. It only takes 47 minutes to go from Clackamas to the moda. Per trimet. I posted the link for you

Again. The issue is the transfers. To create a thru track from clackamas to pdx airport may be what they are doing at gateway currently and its taking years for just that.

 

[Phatguysrule]

ever done construction? Road work? I have for over half my life. I think you don't know how much space is required to do the work.
Your first screen shot alone circles underground parking as if its open space. That parking lot to the north is UNDER the memorial coliseum. I know cause thats where my parking pass is.

have you taken the max to a ballgame?
Its packed beyond packed already. How you think you can get more people to not drive and sardine can themselves in is puzzling to me.

we shall have to agree to disagree. The 205 upgrades alone show how much space was needed. They have been working on a new upgrade near gateway for a few years now. Drive Round there and see the space its requiring to add that other track.
Way more space required than in that first shot with the south parking lot.
We shall have to agree to disagree i think what you are advocating for is not realistic. Portland already has one of the best public transits per capita in the nation. How that can possibly doubled to make an impact is not realistic to me without a bunch more routes going to areas without the max. A few jer stream maxes will not work without an astronomical cost. It only takes 47 minutes to go from Clackamas to the moda. Per trimet. I posted the link for you

Again. The issue is the transfers. To create a thru track from clackamas to pdx airport may be what they are doing at gateway currently and its taking years for just that.

Yeah, all of these concerns have been addressed. The transfers problem would be eliminated.

These solutions have been used successfully in many other cities all over the world.

They do construction on places the size needed all the time.

You're just making shit up to disagree so I'll exit the conversation knowing I've at least made the effort to have an honest conversation.