What's your final move?

[Blazers Roy]

Ed Davis does all of that, while shooting 60% from the field as compared to Boogie's 46%, and without being a massive ballhog (Cousins had the third highest usage rate in the league last year).

That's like saying Goran Dragic is shooting a higher FG% than Westbrook without being a ballhog like Wesbrook.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

That's like saying Goran Dragic is shooting a higher FG% than Westbrook without being a ballhog like Wesbrook.

Yeah, not really. They play a completely different style of game, because Westbrook is infinitely more athletic than Dragic. They're not really comparable.

Ed Davis and Demarcus Cousins are both 6'11" big men who rebound, block shots, and play close to the rim. So my question is, what is it that Cousins does so much better than Davis that makes him worth trading 3-5 players for, and paying $8M more per year? Shoot more often?

 

[riverman]

Sure, and both are max players. And Westbrook is infinitely more athletic than Dragic.

Ed Davis and Demarcus Cousins are both 6'11" big men who rebound, block shots, and play close to the rim. So my question is, what is it that Cousins does so much better than Davis that makes him worth trading 3-5 players for, and paying $10M more power year? Shoot more often?

Very good point. The roll of the dice with Cousins is he's contentious and demanding. The upside is he's a beast. Davis is a solid, high character guy. I'm looking forward to seeing what Davis brings to the team.

 

[magnifier661]

Yeah, not really. They play a completely different style of game, because Westbrook is infinitely more athletic than Dragic. They're not really comparable.

Ed Davis and Demarcus Cousins are both 6'11" big men who rebound, block shots, and play close to the rim. So my question is, what is it that Cousins does so much better than Davis that makes him worth trading 3-5 players for, and paying $8M more per year? Shoot more often?

Ed Davis vs Cousins is a laughable comparison. Please stay in the realm of reality here.

That's like comparing Kobe (prime) to Matthews (without injury)

 

[blue9]

(Cousins had the third highest usage rate in the league last year).

Not to be snarky, but...duh? Cousins is a GREAT player on a TERRIBLE team - of course he's going to have one of the highest usage rates in the league. Comparing him to Davis IS quite similar to comparing Dragic to Westbrook...except that Dragic is actually very good (is Davis?).

Also, I haven't looked at shooting stats in a while, but I suspect that perhaps last year was a down year for him? Because I'm fairly certain that in years past he shot a better percentage than LMA from LMA's "bread'n'butter" range.

 

[BigGameDamian]

we want our big playing closer to the basket, rebound and block or alter shots?

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before boogie finds his three point shot. It's the thing to do in today's NBA.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Yeah, not really. They play a completely different style of game, because Westbrook is infinitely more athletic than Dragic. They're not really comparable.

Ed Davis and Demarcus Cousins are both 6'11" big men who rebound, block shots, and play close to the rim. So my question is, what is it that Cousins does so much better than Davis that makes him worth trading 3-5 players for, and paying $8M more per year? Shoot more often?

I'm still new to these boards. Are you trolling me right now?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I'm still new to these boards. Are you trolling me right now?

Not trolling, just challenging the all-completeness of the conventional wisdom. Cousins looks the part, and has great counting stats, but the advanced stats don't necessarily indicate that he makes a team better. With all his size, skill, athleticism, etc., he's never shot better than 50% from the field for a season, and only better than 47% once.

So again, I'm not disputing that he brings more to the table than Davis or Plumlee. What I'm asking is, is the differential between Cousins and Davis great enough to the team as a whole as to be worth 5 other players, and if so, why?

 

[BonesJones]

Look bro, I get how you are all goo goo for Boogie. I'm goo goo about his game. I think he's a punk and child. If you really watch him during games like ur passion for him as a player, you wouldn't need to ask for proof.

The fact you are even asking shows how incredibly clouded your judgement is of him. Reminds me of the Zach supporters when we had the historical "Hoops Fam" era

Still didn't list a thing...

lol Boogie. I still like him and want him here, but he is kind of a child

So what, he stood around while 6 people faught over the ball after Gay drove with no where to go.

Why do we want a center who shoots the same percentage as Aldridge did, despite playing significantly closer to the rim? In fact, despite shooting (by far) the most long 2-point jumpshots in the league, Aldridge still had a higher 2-point percentage than Boogie. What exactly makes Boogie so great?

if someone is so bad offensively that he only decides to dunk he'll shoot 99%. If someone is a great offensive player on a bad team, he might shoot 46% while being the defenses main focus. Doesn't make the 99% shooter comparable.

 

[magnifier661]

Still didn't list a thing...

So what, he stood around while 6 people faught over the ball after Gay drove with no where to go.

if someone is so bad offensively that he only decides to dunk he'll shoot 99%. If someone is a great offensive player on a bad team, he might shoot 46% while being the defenses main focus. Doesn't make the 99% shooter comparable.

Bro, if he's as valuable as you say he is, teams would be offering the Kings their house. The Lakers, one of the shittiest run organizations as of late, wouldn't even part with their pick, the PF that hadn't even played a single game in the regular season and an old has been player.

The value you give Boogie (wanting to trade Vonleh, Leonard and CJ) is at the level as a class a superstar. You are mortgaging 3 of our most "potential players", for one that other teams won't even give their draft pick for.

Boogie has the talent to be a top 5 player but he's a mental midget. Did you see him call out his coaches on Twitter? Do I really have to give you any evidence at all? Okay fine... My evidence is "the kid hasn't been traded". If he's as good as you say he is, teams would be chomping at the bit to give them the farm for him. I'm talking Shaq type consideration, since the league lacks that type of dominant player.

 

[BonesJones]

Bro, if he's as valuable as you say he is, teams would be offering the Kings their house. The Lakers, one of the shittiest run organizations as of late, wouldn't even part with their pick, the PF that hadn't even played a single game in the regular season and an old has been player.

The value you give Boogie (wanting to trade Vonleh, Leonard and CJ) is at the level as a class a superstar. You are mortgaging 3 of our most "potential players", for one that other teams won't even give their draft pick for.

Boogie has the talent to be a top 5 player but he's a mental midget. Did you see him call out his coaches on Twitter? Do I really have to give you any evidence at all? Okay fine... My evidence is "the kid hasn't been traded". If he's as good as you say he is, teams would be chomping at the bit to give them the farm for him. I'm talking Shaq type consideration, since the league lacks that type of dominant player.

If you combine CJ, Vonleh and Leonard theyll more than likely have a lesser impact than Cousins with all his "mental problems".

The Kings aren't looking to trade him right now that's why you don't hear anything.

And the Lakers think Clarkson, Russell and Randle are future allstars, which I totally disagree with. It's the same thinking we had with Vonleh, but 2 months ago no one would've suggested him as a guy to go out and get.

It's not that I wanna give up tons of talent, I just think it'd take 2 of Leonard, CJ, and Vonleh plus Plumlee and 1 or 2 firsts to get him, and its worth it. We as Blazer fans tend to overrate who we have, keep that in mind. CJ, Meyers, and Vonleh weren't even getting regular minutes midseason last year. Now apparently they're all "potential" future all stars, even though that potential might have a 1 in 100 chance of happening.

 

[magnifier661]

If you combine CJ, Vonleh and Leonard theyll more than likely have a lesser impact than Cousins with all his "mental problems".

The Kings aren't looking to trade him right now that's why you don't hear anything.

And the Lakers think Clarkson, Russell and Randle are future allstars, which I totally disagree with. It's the same thinking we had with Vonleh, but 2 months ago no one would've suggested him as a guy to go out and get.

It's not that I wanna give up tons of talent, I just think it'd take 2 of Leonard, CJ, and Vonleh plus Plumlee and 1 or 2 firsts to get him, and its worth it. We as Blazer fans tend to overrate who we have, keep that in mind. CJ, Meyers, and Vonleh weren't even getting regular minutes midseason last year. Now apparently they're all "potential" future all stars, even though that potential might have a 1 in 100 chance of happening.

i am fine with 2 of the three I mentioned, which I stated, but I seem to remember saying all three are just as fine. And if you agree with that, then you and I are at a complete disagreement. He is not worth that much. And you are right about having more impact, but it maybe negative as well.

 

[BonesJones]

i am fine with 2 of the three I mentioned, which I stated, but I seem to remember saying all three are just as fine. And if you agree with that, then you and I are at a complete disagreement. He is not worth that much. And you are right about having more impact, but it maybe negative as well.

He's worth the 3 of them if they also take on Aminus and/or Davis' contract without asking for more than one 1st. I say take the chance with DMC, Lillard, and $45M+ in cap space. If you strike out on top free agents you can use the space for a lopsided trade or for vets that fit Lillard and Cousins will. Youd have a lotto pick this year (if they trade at the deadline) who could be a bench piece, sign someone like Joe Johnson and Al Horford, and boom 1 year from now you have a contender.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Not trolling, just challenging the all-completeness of the conventional wisdom. Cousins looks the part, and has great counting stats, but the advanced stats don't necessarily indicate that he makes a team better. With all his size, skill, athleticism, etc., he's never shot better than 50% from the field for a season, and only better than 47% once.

So again, I'm not disputing that he brings more to the table than Davis or Plumlee. What I'm asking is, is the differential between Cousins and Davis great enough to the team as a whole as to be worth 5 other players, and if so, why?

At the end of the day it boils down to: can he create points when Davis can't? can he impose his will in the paint when Davis can't? and the answer is: YES!!!

We've all seen guys like Harden,Kobe,Westbrook,Wade etc shoot 4/20 at important games, but we still don't think they are inferior to Kyle Korver because that's NBA basketball, you need stars who can make points where simple players can't. How do you expect Davis to handle the Marc Gasols\Deandre Jordans of the world?

Your point is more relevant to European basketball.

 

[magnifier661]

He's worth the 3 of them if they also take on Aminus and/or Davis' contract without asking for more than one 1st. I say take the chance with DMC, Lillard, and $45M+ in cap space. If you strike out on top free agents you can use the space for a lopsided trade or for vets that fit Lillard and Cousins will. Youd have a lotto pick this year (if they trade at the deadline) who could be a bench piece, sign someone like Joe Johnson and Al Horford, and boom 1 year from now you have a contender.

That's a move that will get a GM fired. Sorry but I completely disagree wholeheartedly.

You take a flyer on a dysfunctional all star by trading away all your potential players and hope that you can bring in a third star via free agency? No thanks

There was a team that did this years ago. They took a chance and traded away so much potential for a superstar (melo). They are still feeling the burn from that deal.

 

[Blazinaway]

"final move" is patience and let next season play out and see how the new and young guys look/develop and if a midseason move can be made near the deadline when a team perhaps looks to unload a good player then maybe we make a move using capspace/picks/players

 

[riverman]

I would think if you build a roster around Lillard, then Lillard should influence roster changes just like LA did. Boogie could very well be a game changer but this late in the offseason, I don't see gutting the roster to get him. If we made this move it should have been over a month ago. Come trade deadline in Feb we'll have a better idea of what addition by subtraction moves will push the ball forward. I trust the organization to find hidden talent that will succeed with a Lillard led team. The guys we have all have huge upsides and we have a balance of skillsets that we haven't had in a long time. It's obvious Olshey wants defenders who can get out and run in transition.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

That's a move that will get a GM fired. Sorry but I completely disagree wholeheartedly.

You take a flyer on a dysfunctional all star by trading away all your potential players and hope that you can bring in a third star via free agency? No thanks

There was a team that did this years ago. They took a chance and traded away so much potential for a superstar (melo). They are still feeling the burn from that deal.

"final move" is patience and let next season play out and see how the new and young guys look/develop and if a midseason move can be made near the deadline when a team perhaps looks to unload a good player then maybe we make a move using capspace/picks/players

I would think if you build a roster around Lillard, then Lillard should influence roster changes just like LA did. Boogie could very well be a game changer but this late in the offseason, I don't see gutting the roster to get him. If we made this move it should have been over a month ago. Come trade deadline in Feb we'll have a better idea of what addition by subtraction moves will push the ball forward. I trust the organization to find hidden talent that will succeed with a Lillard led team. The guys we have all have huge upsides and we have a balance of skillsets that we haven't had in a long time. It's obvious Olshey wants defenders who can get out and run in transition.

Finally, some voices of reason. I realize it's the dog days of summer and there's not much happening on the local NBA front so we need something to talk about. But 12 pages on whether we should trade for Cousins? It went from an interesting idea/fantasy into sounding like a done deal/it's only a matter of time. I love everyone's passion, but jeez, we just picked up a bevy of new players we haven't even seen yet. Training camp hasn't even started. As noted several times, the roster is loaded with "potential" and "upside". Yet we're already "trading" half these poor bastards for a documented head case. A trade that could put us deeper in the hole than we already are. If I'm the new guys, I'm thinking, "This is the best, most supportive fan base in the NBA??? I haven't practiced or played a single minute in a Trailblazer uniform and they're already trying to trade me outta town before I can show what I can do???" Yes, the NBA is a business. But the NBA is also a league full of fragile egos. I think we're doing these players a huge disservice by even playing this game at this time. I think we need to get behind them and make sure they know it. We need to give them a chance to prove themselves. Then, as others have opined, we see what options are open to us later in the season, based on our needs at that time. I love DC's game but I'm not sure I want him on my team, at least not until the dust settles and we actually know what WE have on our roster.

 

[magnifier661]

Finally, some voices of reason. I realize it's the dog days of summer and there's not much happening on the local NBA front so we need something to talk about. But 12 pages on whether we should trade for Cousins? It went from an interesting idea/fantasy into sounding like a done deal/it's only a matter of time. I love everyone's passion, but jeez, we just picked up a bevy of new players we haven't even seen yet. Training camp hasn't even started. As noted several times, the roster is loaded with "potential" and "upside". Yet we're already "trading" half these poor bastards for a documented head case. A trade that could put us deeper in the hole than we already are. If I'm the new guys, I'm thinking, "This is the best, most supportive fan base in the NBA??? I haven't practiced or played a single minute in a Trailblazer uniform and they're already trying to trade me outta town before I can show what I can do???" Yes, the NBA is a business. But the NBA is also a league full of fragile egos. I think we're doing these players a huge disservice by even playing this game at this time. I think we need to get behind them and make sure they know it. We need to give them a chance to prove themselves. Then, as others have opined, we see what options are open to us later in the season, based on our needs at that time. I love DC's game but I'm not sure I want him on my team, at least not until the dust settles and we actually know what WE have on our roster.

It would be so awesome if the players us fans are so willing to trade do so well that we say "Boogie who?!"

 

[Blazers Roy]

That's a move that will get a GM fired. Sorry but I completely disagree wholeheartedly.
There was a team that did this years ago. They took a chance and traded away so much potential for a superstar (melo). They are still feeling the burn from that deal.

What burn? they lost Danilo who is always injured and not a legit starter,Mozgov and Wilson Chandler who should be a bench player anyway and they got one of the best point guards in the previous decade and a box office player in Carmelo Anthony (not to mention the Knicks snagging JR Smith from Denver afterwards).

That was a great trade for the Knicks.

 

[magnifier661]

What burn? they lost Danilo who is always injured and not a legit starter,Mozgov and Wilson Chandler who should be a bench player anyway and they got one of the best point guards in the previous decade and a box office player in Carmelo Anthony (not to mention the Knicks snagging JR Smith from Denver afterwards).

That was a great trade for the Knicks.

The burn was not the players they gave away, but their flexibility. They got rid of their youth for a head case super star, which was clearly better than Boogie now at the time of the deal.

They've been door matts for years since that deal, with the exception of the first year the deal happened. Why?! Because Melo is a fucking idiot head case that doesn't play well with others.

Anyone that defends the Melo to Knicks deal will lose any credibility in discussion. They lost and lost big. And yes, they are still feeling the burn

 

[Blazers Roy]

The burn was not the players they gave away, but their flexibility. They got rid of their youth for a head case super star, which was clearly better than Boogie now at the time of the deal.

They've been door matts for years since that deal, with the exception of the first year the deal happened. Why?! Because Melo is a fucking idiot head case that doesn't play well with others.

Anyone that defends the Melo to Knicks deal will lose any credibility in discussion. They lost and lost big. And yes, they are still feeling the burn

Amare's contract made them lose flexibility, paying a 100 million dollars for a guy who couldn't even be a #3 option (after his injury) pretty much killed them. Who was Carmelo's #2 during all these years with the Knicks? JR?

I don't like these attempts to make Carmelo look like a scrub, this is a guy who led his team to a championship in college and then made Denver a #8 seed in the west after they had the worst record in the previous season. This is a guy who was at the WCF when he got a good PG in Chauncy Billups, THIS IS A TEAM SPORT.

But oh no, they lost Gallinari, Wilson Chandler who should have been our 7th option and Raymond Felton lol

 

[magnifier661]

Amare's contract made them lose flexibility, paying a 100 million dollars for a guy who couldn't even be a #3 option (after his injury) pretty much killed them. Who was Carmelo's #2 during all these years with the Knicks? JR?

I don't like these attempts to make Carmelo look like a scrub, this is a guy who led his team to a championship in college and then made Denver a #8 seed in the west after they had the worst record in the previous season. This is a guy who was at the WCF when he got a good PG in Chauncy Billups, THIS IS A TEAM SPORT.

But oh no, they lost Gallinari, Wilson Chandler who should have been our 7th option and Raymond Felton lol

Who said Melo is a scrub? He's exceptional and one of the best scorers in the last decade. What was wrong is what's behind his ears. He's a prima Donna that is a selfish person. He would take 1 billion dollars and justify it by saying, he's the best, without worrying about what team is fielded around him. He cares about him and him alone. Not a team player.

Also, Did you forget to mention their draft picks? And let's look at the amare deal. They tried to make a big 3 so they can "win now". Dame just signed a max deal, we are looking to make our big three. Boogie is definitely a big 3, but a risk.

So let's look at boogie's track record being the #1 option on a team. This is the exact same argument you can make with Aldridge being the #1 option.

Alone, nether was good enough to carry their team to success. In fact, they couldn't even get to the playoffs. Ironically, Melo is the exact type of player in this regard. There is something wrong here. What's even more uncanny is all three players we've discussed had issues with their own teammates. Weird how that directly reflects the team's success.

Only until Dame came around, was when Portland sniffed playoff contention. You will see how a "true leader" will lead a ball club .

 

[Blazinaway]

I am not going to read all the pages but why does anyone realistically think Boogie is available for anything but a huge price in terms of assets? I guess some folks like pipe dreams in the summer time, I know pot it now legal in Oregon but slow down guys! lol

 

[blue9]

I am not going to read all the pages but why does anyone realistically think Boogie is available for anything but a huge price in terms of assets? I guess some folks like pipe dreams in the summer time, I know pot it now legal in Oregon but slow down guys! lol

I guess I'm half-expecting Boogie to make a public trade request in Dec/Jan. Which would lower his trade value, so we wouldn't have to part with all of our high-potential (but unproven) players.

 

[BonesJones]

Who said Melo is a scrub? He's exceptional and one of the best scorers in the last decade. What was wrong is what's behind his ears. He's a prima Donna that is a selfish person. He would take 1 billion dollars and justify it by saying, he's the best, without worrying about what team is fielded around him. He cares about him and him alone. Not a team player.

Also, Did you forget to mention their draft picks? And let's look at the amare deal. They tried to make a big 3 so they can "win now". Dame just signed a max deal, we are looking to make our big three. Boogie is definitely a big 3, but a risk.

So let's look at boogie's track record being the #1 option on a team. This is the exact same argument you can make with Aldridge being the #1 option.

Alone, nether was good enough to carry their team to success. In fact, they couldn't even get to the playoffs. Ironically, Melo is the exact type of player in this regard. There is something wrong here. What's even more uncanny is all three players we've discussed had issues with their own teammates. Weird how that directly reflects the team's success.

Only until Dame came around, was when Portland sniffed playoff contention. You will see how a "true leader" will lead a ball club .

You call everybody a head case. I've heard players say Melo is one of the nicest guys in the league, and just because hea a top scorer somehow he's a prima Donna and selfish person? Jeez

 

[magnifier661]

You call everybody a head case. I've heard players say Melo is one of the nicest guys in the league, and just because hea a top scorer somehow he's a prima Donna and selfish person? Jeez

Getting 2 coaches fired because he didn't like them, check.

Publicly telling the Knicks to not obtain Smith, Check

More interested in scoring titles than sharing the ball with his teammates? Check

Failure to work on his defense which would guarantee him to be a top 3 player in the league? Check

I could go on and on if you like

 

[BonesJones]

Finally, some voices of reason. I realize it's the dog days of summer and there's not much happening on the local NBA front so we need something to talk about. But 12 pages on whether we should trade for Cousins? It went from an interesting idea/fantasy into sounding like a done deal/it's only a matter of time. I love everyone's passion, but jeez, we just picked up a bevy of new players we haven't even seen yet. Training camp hasn't even started. As noted several times, the roster is loaded with "potential" and "upside". Yet we're already "trading" half these poor bastards for a documented head case. A trade that could put us deeper in the hole than we already are. If I'm the new guys, I'm thinking, "This is the best, most supportive fan base in the NBA??? I haven't practiced or played a single minute in a Trailblazer uniform and they're already trying to trade me outta town before I can show what I can do???" Yes, the NBA is a business. But the NBA is also a league full of fragile egos. I think we're doing these players a huge disservice by even playing this game at this time. I think we need to get behind them and make sure they know it. We need to give them a chance to prove themselves. Then, as others have opined, we see what options are open to us later in the season, based on our needs at that time. I love DC's game but I'm not sure I want him on my team, at least not until the dust settles and we actually know what WE have on our roster.

I will wholeheartedly support anyone who puts on a Blazer uniform. However, if I think a move will make us better, then I will support that too.

I just know that a pairing of DMC and Lillard gives us a better chance at contending, and a better chance at adding a 3rd piece to make us a top 5 team. But you guys can keep banking on the chance One of those 3 becomes a borderline all star. You can keep banking on the notion that a good free agent wants to come here and play with CJ McCollum and Noah Vonleh.

I can see why these guys have potential. I like them and they're fun to watch. However, there's a decent chance none of them could be more than average starters, and that means we'll be missing the playoffs for 5 years or so. With DeMarcus you don't have that problem, and the only way to go is up, because his deal is friendly, and we'd have tons of cap and flexibility, unlike the Knicks when they added Melo.

 

[BonesJones]

Getting 2 coaches fired because he didn't like them, check.

Good players have that power if they think the coach isn't good enough. Think of the Lebron and David Blatt drama. And its not like Melo had a good coach he was trying to get rid of.

Publicly telling the Knicks to not obtain Smith, Check

That's smart. Are you telling me you want JR Smith on your team?

More interested in scoring titles than sharing the ball with his teammates? Check

That's just flat wrong. He's a scorer, and playing to his strengths gives his team the best chance to win.

Failure to work on his defense which would guarantee him to be a top 3 player in the league? Check

His defense has improved the past couple years... but by the sound of it I guess Lillard's a headache too?

I could go on and on if you like

So can I.

 

[magnifier661]

Good players have that power if they think the coach isn't good enough. Think of the Lebron and David Blatt drama. And its not like Melo had a good coach he was trying to get rid of.

The first coach got Melo to the WCF and playoff appearances throughout his entire time there.

That's smart. Are you telling me you want JR Smith on your team?

You are missing the point here. JR is a fucking dumb shit. What you aren't seeing is that players don't throw other players under the bus publicly.

That's just flat wrong. He's a scorer, and playing to his strengths gives his team the best chance to win.

Kobe and Jordan were scorers too but elevated their game on the defensive end to make them the best.

His defense has improved the past couple years... but by the sound of it I guess Lillard's a headache too?


So can I.

Yes, you are right. He is a head case