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SharpeScooterShooter said:
i never said that nice cherry picking. Poor boy just cant handle it and move on. Lmathe fuckign O at you and your nonsense.
Go blow your know it all ba somewhere else. Im not buying your twisting shit around to fit your narrative and neither is anyone else.
Ohh i can post a portion of a sentence or statement and twist it however i want.
Dur de dur!!!

lmao.
Move on know it all…..
Click to expand...
Oh really? Then what were "damn near the same odds"? The discussion was the whether we should be trying to draft high or draft low.

I get it. I would want me to move on as well, if I were you. That was a whole lot of stupid shit being said up above.

For fuck sake is right... I understand you've got your feelings hurt because you look really stupid up there. That's not my fault. Stop saying stupid shit.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Oh really? Then what were "damn near the same odds"? The discussion was the weather we should be trying to draft high or draft low.

I get it. I would want me to move on as well, if I were you. That was a whole lot of stupid shit being set up above.

For fuck sake is right... I understand you've got your feelings hurt because you look really stupid up there. That's not my fault. Stop saying stupid shit.
Click to expand...

Blah blah de fuckery blah….you need a mirror kiddo.
 
Phatguysrule said:
Still can't explain what were the same odds can you? Didn't think so...
LMAO
Click to expand...

now you claim i said WHAT are same odds?
lmao.

are you coherent? Do you have a reading disfunction?????
its in the post you quoted if you actually read the whole thing instead of trying so hard to not look bad.
Reread. Or continue your blah blah bullshit. I don't really care. but its funny you just
Cant
Let
Go
Lol.
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
now you claim i said WHAT are same odds?
lmao.

are you coherent? Do you have a reading disfunction?????
its in the post you quoted if you actually read the whole thing instead of trying so hard to not look bad.
Reread. Or continue your blah blah bullshit. I don't really care. but its funny you just
Cant
Let
Go
Lol.
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Lol. Who's in here the following day taking pot shots at me? Yet too cowardly to even quote me in it. Hoping I wouldn't notice?

Lmao! Why can't you quit me, baby?

Yeah, have fun trying to come up with an explanation of how you saying the odds were "about the same" in a conversation about the pros and cons of drafting high vs low was referring to something other than drafting high or low.

Just don't say stupid shit, bruh. You'll save yourself another banning...
 
Phatguysrule said:
Oh I don't feel like a victim at all. I've simply wasted enough time trying to be gracious to you. You're either too dense or too stubborn and certainly far too emotional to engage in an honest discussion, so there is no point.

I'm now okay with you continuing along in ignorance knowing that I've at least tried to enlighten you.

Don't worry, no thanks is necessary.
Click to expand...
It’s apparent you need two things.

1. Some tissues for your issues
2. a hug

drops mic
 
Phatguysrule said:
Lol. Who's in here the following day taking pot shots at me? Yet too cowardly to even quote me in it. Hoping I wouldn't notice?

Lmao! Why can't you quit me, baby?

Yeah, have fun trying to come up with an explanation of how you saying the odds were "about the same" in a conversation about the pros and cons of drafting high vs low was referring to something other than drafting high or low.

Just don't say stupid shit, bruh. You'll save yourself another banning...
Click to expand...

Ill give you one honest effort.

i never said the odds of drafting hi vs low are damn near the same. I said the odds of winning a championship is about the same whether drafting hi or low…..Based on how many top drafts are busts and how many all nba players are not lottery picks. the odds of winning a championship are about the same and when you look at past championship teams the numbers are about the same. How many teams have won a ring with their own top drafted picks? How many have won by trading for top players?

Yes. The odds of winning a ring are damn near the same, based on past champions and the roster those teams had. Yes. Higher draft picks may help but it has been proven it isn't the only way to won as you claim.

Hopefully that clears things up for you, even though this was previously said and able to be read in thos thread.
Now. Will you actually play on the up and up? Or are you going to contrite my post and cherry pick words to fit an agenda?
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
Ill give you one honest effort.

i never said the odds of drafting hi vs low are damn near the same. I said the odds of winning a championship is about the same whether drafting hi or low…..Based on how many top drafts are busts and how many all nba players are not lottery picks. the odds of winning a championship are about the same and when you look at past championship teams the numbers are about the same. How many teams have won a ring with their own top drafted picks? How many have won by trading for top players?

Yes. The odds of winning a ring are damn near the same, based on past champions and the roster those teams had.
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Not even close. Especially if you're a non-destination team. There are so few championships won by non-destination teams that there is no way to gauge this. The sample size is just too small.

A couple teams lucking into generational players later doesn't change that.

But I do appreciate the honest effort.

There is no guarantee to winning a title. You can only hope to give yourself the best chance for as long as possible. And in order to do that you need more talent than everyone else.

The only way for a non-destination team to get more talent than everyone else is via the draft.

In order to find the most talent in the draft reliably you need have the earliest opportunity to pick consistently.
 
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Phatguysrule said:
Not even close. Especially if you're a non-destination team.

A couple teams lucking into generational players later doesn't change that.

But I do appreciate the honest effort.
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lets take a look at history shall we?

23-24: Boston won and drafted thier players with picks they traded for. Not by tanking. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

22-23: Denver won and drafted their mvp player, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

21-22: Golden state won. Not one key player a top five pick. Small market team. does not fit your mold.

20-21: Milwaukie won and drafted their mvp, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

19-20: Lakers won and traded for their key players or had players take their talents there. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

18-19: Toronto Won. The drafted pascal 27th. Traded for gasol and kawhi. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

17-18: Warriors. Same as above. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

16-17: warriors. Same as above. Small market tram. Does not fit your mold.

15-16: Cleveland: drafted lebron. Small market tram. This team fits your mold.

14-15: Warriors. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.
13-14: San antonio: main players drafted in top five. Small market team. Fits your mold.

12-13: Miami. Traded for their top player. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

11-12: miami. Traded for thier top players. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

10-11: Dallas. Traded for dirk who was drafted at 11. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

Lakers
Lakers
Etc.


so of the last almost 15 years we have seen the following:
4 big market champs not fitting your mold.

10 small market teams of which two fit your mold and drafted their own players.

I see the last 15 years showing trading for the top players wins more than drafting for top players.

I think this shows that the odds are damn near the same, if not, in favor of trading for the right players over drafting the right players.

The facts above show it is not illogical or uneducated to have a differing opinion than yours.
Both may work. Both have proven not to work.

Obviously the best case is to scout better than other teams. Both in the draft and trading options( good fit, balancing rosters, etc.)

But if anything, i find it illogical to claim its illogical to not want to hard tank forever.
You may disagree but it doesn't make it illogical, uneducated or any other demeaning words that can be summed up.

Its simply understanding that there is more than one way to win and some prefer one way over the other and vice versa.

There is no need to claim others are not being logical, living in their own reality or posting uneducated words.
This is where you started getting push back from me and will continue to get it as long as you demean my differing desire on what the team does moving forward.
 
Now lets take a look at the top draft picks of past. We wil lskip the last five years because we dont know yet what all those drafted players will do in thier career and respective teams, but for sake of placement, lets say after five years if a player hasn't blossomed into an all star from the team they were drafted from they arent gonna. Im ranking them in the following category.
Winner: Won a ring or is an all star
Fail: Not an all star but not a bust
Bust: end of bencher/put of the league

So….

2019 draft picks
1) Zion. May prove to fit your mold.
2) Morant. May prove to fit your mold.
3) Rj barret. Fail.
4) deandre hunter. Bust
5) Darious Garland. Not a fail yet, but not likely to fit your mold.

2018:
1) Ayton. Fail.
2) Bagley III. Bust
3) Luka. Fits your mold, but their team traded for other key players.
4) Jarren Jackson. Same as Garland from 2019
5)Tre Young. Likely Fail.

2017:
1) Fultz. Fail
2) Lonzo Ball. Fail
3) Jason Tatum. Won, but traded for the pick to get him.
4) Josh Jackson: Fail.
5) Deareon Fox: Potential Winner

2016:
1) Ben Simmons: Bust
2) Brandon Ingram: Fail
3) Jaylen Brown: Winner
4) Dragon Bender: Bust
5)Kris Dunn: Bust

in these last four years, there are many more fails and busts in the top five, than winners.

im done for now, but another gauge would be looking at all star rosters and lining out how many were top five picks.
Im willing to bet there are almost as many not in the top five as there are top five picks.

all of this leads to it all being a crapshoot. The best odds for us to win is to be better at gauging talent and fit than any other team. Drafting or trading is second.
But with elites scouting, a team can win either way.
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
lets take a look at history shall we?

23-24: Boston won and drafted thier players with picks they traded for. Not by tanking. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

22-23: Denver won and drafted their mvp player, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

21-22: Golden state won. Not one key player a top five pick. Small market team. does not fit your mold.

20-21: Milwaukie won and drafted their mvp, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

19-20: Lakers won and traded for their key players or had players take their talents there. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

18-19: Toronto Won. The drafted pascal 27th. Traded for gasol and kawhi. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

17-18: Warriors. Same as above. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

16-17: warriors. Same as above. Small market tram. Does not fit your mold.

15-16: Cleveland: drafted lebron. Small market tram. This team fits your mold.

14-15: Warriors. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.
13-14: San antonio: main players drafted in top five. Small market team. Fits your mold.

12-13: Miami. Traded for their top player. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

11-12: miami. Traded for thier top players. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

10-11: Dallas. Traded for dirk who was drafted at 11. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

Lakers
Lakers
Etc.


so of the last almost 15 years we have seen the following:
4 big market champs not fitting your mold.

10 small market teams of which two fit your mold and drafted their own players.

I see the last 15 years showing trading for the top players wins more than drafting for top players.

I think this shows that the odds are damn near the same, if not, in favor of trading for the right players over drafting the right players.

The facts above show it is not illogical or uneducated to have a differing opinion than yours.
Both may work. Both have proven not to work.

Obviously the best case is to scout better than other teams. Both in the draft and trading options( good fit, balancing rosters, etc.)

But if anything, i find it illogical to claim its illogical to not want to hard tank forever.
You may disagree but it doesn't make it illogical, uneducated or any other demeaning words that can be summed up.

Its simply understanding that there is more than one way to win and some prefer one way over the other and vice versa.

There is no need to claim others are not being logical, living in their own reality or posting uneducated words.
This is where you started getting push back from me and will continue to get it as long as you demean my differing desire on what the team does moving forward.
Click to expand...
Nobody has advocated for tanking hard forever.

Nobody has said we should not make trades. We will have to.

All of those teams were loaded with talent. All of those trades took talent and/or draft capital going out to bring talent back.

Winning championships takes a ton of luck. There is no recipe for a small market team other than drafting a generational player or two. Of which your odds of doing are increased the higher you draft.
 
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SharpeScooterShooter said:
Now lets take a look at the top draft picks of past. We wil lskip the last five years because we dont know yet what all those drafted players will do in thier career and respective teams, but for sake of placement, lets say after five years if a player hasn't blossomed into an all star from the team they were drafted from they arent gonna. Im ranking them in the following category.
Winner: Won a ring or is an all star
Fail: Not an all star but not a bust
Bust: end of bencher/put of the league

So….

2019 draft picks
1) Zion. May prove to fit your mold.
2) Morant. May prove to fit your mold.
3) Rj barret. Fail.
4) deandre hunter. Bust
5) Darious Garland. Not a fail yet, but not likely to fit your mold.

2018:
1) Ayton. Fail.
2) Bagley III. Bust
3) Luka. Fits your mold, but their team traded for other key players.
4) Jarren Jackson. Same as Garland from 2019
5)Tre Young. Likely Fail.

2017:
1) Fultz. Fail
2) Lonzo Ball. Fail
3) Jason Tatum. Won, but traded for the pick to get him.
4) Josh Jackson: Fail.
5) Deareon Fox: Potential Winner

2016:
1) Ben Simmons: Bust
2) Brandon Ingram: Fail
3) Jaylen Brown: Winner
4) Dragon Bender: Bust
5)Kris Dunn: Bust

in these last four years, there are many more fails and busts in the top five, than winners.

im done for now, but another gauge would be looking at all star rosters and lining out how many were top five picks.
Im willing to bet there are almost as many not in the top five as there are top five picks.

all of this leads to it all being a crapshoot. The best odds for us to win is to be better at gauging talent and fit than any other team. Drafting or trading is second.
But with elites scouting, a team can win either way.
Click to expand...
Yes, you are almost as likely to get an all star from the 55 picks after 5 as you are from the 5 picks before #6.

But you don't get 55 chances to choose after #5. You get 2 chances.

This is where probabilities come in.

If there are 2 all stars in the top 5 and 2 all stars between 6 and 30, would you rather pick once in the top 5 or once the bottom 25? That's the comparison you're making above, and (I believe) you are saying they are about the same.

Or 2 all stars in the top 5 compared to 1 in the next 15.

Now, compound that by 2 years. 3 years. 5 years...

Once again, I do appreciate the honest dialogue. Thank you.
 
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On the thread topic, the 2016-7 offseason when Soapy had a window to build a competitive roster around Dame but instead committed the team's capspace & economic future to Meyers Leonard, Evan Turner & Alen Crabbe was a true low for me as a fan. While this board was aglow with optimism, I was sure they'd blown it. I often started posts saying I hope I turn out to be wrong but... Having the following seasons play out as they did gave me no satisfaction for being correct. The rest of Dame time in PDX held the same gloomy malaise of having blown their shot of becoming an elite team. Capped out and having the same fucking idiot selecting from the middle of the draft did not inspire hope

I want them to compete for championships not just make the playoffs. I'd much rather watch talented young players struggle to find their games and lose a lot with possible internal improvement and high draft picks on the horizon then watch mediocre vets scratch and claw to be one and done but never truly be contenders. I'm definitely looking forward to this next season and have hopes that the youngins are figuring things out.

STOMP
 
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STOMP said:
On the thread topic, the 2016-7 offseason when Soapy had a window to build a competitive roster around Dame but instead committed the team's capspace & economic future to Meyers Leonard, Evan Turner & Alen Crabbe was a true low for me as a fan. While this board was aglow with optimism, I was sure they'd blown it. I often started posts saying I hope I turn out to be wrong but... Having the following seasons play out as they did gave me no satisfaction for being correct. The rest of Dame time in PDX held the same gloomy malaise of having blown their shot of becoming an elite team. Capped out and having the same fucking idiot selecting from the middle of the draft did not inspire hope

I want them to compete for championships not just make the playoffs. I'd much rather watch talented young players struggle to find their games and lose a lot with possible internal improvement and high draft picks on the horizon then watch mediocre vets scratch and claw to be one and done but never truly be contenders. I'm definitely looking forward to this next season and have hopes that the youngins are figuring things out.

STOMP
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100%. I didn't blame Olshey much at the time because it appeared that he was trying to do it through free agency and trades. And it seemed like that's the reason that he was brought here.

And those were the best guys I thought that we could realistically get via free agency and trades. And being Portland, we have to overpay in free agency. We just do.

The problem was in thinking that Portland could build out the remaining three or four players of a competitive team after having one or two stars.

Portland can't do that. It has to be done through the draft. HAS to be.

If we do not trade Ant and Grant before they are allowed to win us games against bad teams then this season will be a wasted opportunity. It doesn't mean we can't luck out. But we will have wasted an opportunity to maximize our potential return. One thing that we can count on is that we will not luck out every year.

It is so critical over the next two or three years that we get maximum draft capital out of everything that we do. And that everything is about developing our young players into the best young core in the league. And putting together the best coaching staff for that young core.
 
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THE HCP said:
This thread reminds me that once somebody is kicked off the forum for not being able to follow the rules, they shouldn't be allowed to simply change their name and return.
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Certain posters cannot hide who they are. Once you drive for Uber you’re an Uber driver. Once you leave the key under the mat while you are out of town? Err…. Never mind.
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
lets take a look at history shall we?

23-24: Boston won and drafted thier players with picks they traded for. Not by tanking. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

22-23: Denver won and drafted their mvp player, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

21-22: Golden state won. Not one key player a top five pick. Small market team. does not fit your mold.

20-21: Milwaukie won and drafted their mvp, not in the lotto. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

19-20: Lakers won and traded for their key players or had players take their talents there. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

18-19: Toronto Won. The drafted pascal 27th. Traded for gasol and kawhi. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

17-18: Warriors. Same as above. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

16-17: warriors. Same as above. Small market tram. Does not fit your mold.

15-16: Cleveland: drafted lebron. Small market tram. This team fits your mold.

14-15: Warriors. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.
13-14: San antonio: main players drafted in top five. Small market team. Fits your mold.

12-13: Miami. Traded for their top player. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

11-12: miami. Traded for thier top players. Big market team. Does not fit your mold.

10-11: Dallas. Traded for dirk who was drafted at 11. Small market team. Does not fit your mold.

Lakers
Lakers
Etc.


so of the last almost 15 years we have seen the following:
4 big market champs not fitting your mold.

10 small market teams of which two fit your mold and drafted their own players.

I see the last 15 years showing trading for the top players wins more than drafting for top players.

I think this shows that the odds are damn near the same, if not, in favor of trading for the right players over drafting the right players.

The facts above show it is not illogical or uneducated to have a differing opinion than yours.
Both may work. Both have proven not to work.

Obviously the best case is to scout better than other teams. Both in the draft and trading options( good fit, balancing rosters, etc.)

But if anything, i find it illogical to claim its illogical to not want to hard tank forever.
You may disagree but it doesn't make it illogical, uneducated or any other demeaning words that can be summed up.

Its simply understanding that there is more than one way to win and some prefer one way over the other and vice versa.

There is no need to claim others are not being logical, living in their own reality or posting uneducated words.
This is where you started getting push back from me and will continue to get it as long as you demean my differing desire on what the team does moving forward.
Click to expand...
good post
there is 1 Blazers rebuttal:

1974, Portland selects Bill Walton #1
1976, Portland selects Maurice Lucas with the #2 pick of the ABA draft.

1977 Blazers win the World Championship
 
Whyachi said:
good post
there is 1 Blazers rebuttal:

1974, Portland selects Bill Walton #1
1976, Portland selects Maurice Lucas with the #2 pick of the ABA draft.

1977 Blazers win the World Championship
Click to expand...

* 1997: Spurs select Tim Duncan with 1st pick. 1999-2003-2005-2007-2014 Spurs win 5 championships

* 1978 Celtics draft Larry Bird with 6th pick; 1980 draft McHale with 3rd pick. Celtics win 3 championships

* 1970 Celtics draft Dave Cowens with 3rd pick. Celtics win 2 championships

* 1979 Lakers draft Magic Johnson with 1st pick. Lakers win 5 championships

* Miami drafts Dwayne Wade with 5th pick. Miami with 3 championships (yeah, I know)

* 2009 Warriors draft Stephen Curry with 7th pick. Warriors win 4 championships

*1969 Bucks draft Kareem with 1st pick. 1971 Bucks win championship
 
GriLtCheeZ said:
Out of habit I bought NBA2K24 when it went on sale in December and ended up never even installing it.
Click to expand...
the kids are up to 2K27. They've saved up treasure tokens and spliced all the good players from high school & college.
 
Whyachi said:
good post
there is 1 Blazers rebuttal:

1974, Portland selects Bill Walton #1
1976, Portland selects Maurice Lucas with the #2 pick of the ABA draft.

1977 Blazers win the World Championship
Click to expand...

2007, Portland selects Oden #1.....we all know how that went
 
wizenheimer said:
* 1997: Spurs select Tim Duncan with 1st pick. 1999-2003-2005-2007-2014 Spurs win 5 championships

* 1978 Celtics draft Larry Bird with 6th pick; 1980 draft McHale with 3rd pick. Celtics win 3 championships

* 1970 Celtics draft Dave Cowens with 3rd pick. Celtics win 2 championships

* 1979 Lakers draft Magic Johnson with 1st pick. Lakers win 5 championships

* Miami drafts Dwayne Wade with 5th pick. Miami with 3 championships (yeah, I know)

* 2009 Warriors draft Stephen Curry with 7th pick. Warriors win 4 championships

*1969 Bucks draft Kareem with 1st pick. 1971 Bucks win championship
Click to expand...

You do realize you're helping SharpeScooterShooter argument right? As all of those you just listed, only 2 were players #1 picks and the other 5 you listed were picked #3 and lower...and one of his points were we don't have to try to get a top #1-2 pick but also more so just make the RIGHT pick with a high pick and the odds of getting a generational talent is just as good or super close with a 3-7 draft pick...

So, you listed 7 players, 5 were #3 picked or worse... that means 5 out of your 7 (71%) were picked #3 or worse since probabilities were a big part of this discussion lol

Thanks for proving it's more so making the right pick with a top pick than just need to tank over and over every season until we get a top 1-2 pick...
 
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