Where do you stand on OCCUPY WALLSTREET?

[Further]

Where do you stand

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I find them to be extremely superficial. Not even at their core do they have any redeeming qualities. I think they are attention whores with no direction or objective other than hating the wealthy and wanting something for nothing. Its nothing more than class warfare, orchestrated by progressive special interest groups.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Awareness is all that will come from this.

Wall Street/Washington could really care less about these protests. An all-out Revolution wouldn't change Wall Street.

 

[Natebishop3]

I am somewhere between fully supporting it and somewhat supporting it. I like the basic principle of it, but the disorganization of the movement is hurting it (similar to the Tea Party). They need a clear message.

 

[blazerboy30]

It's hard to know if you agree with it when nobody even knows what it means or is trying to accomplish.

 

[BrianFromWA]

that's the point. They could be for solving world hunger and world peace, and I would be against hundreds of slackers looking for handouts who are disrespecting laws and maintaining their status as part of the problem, not the solution.

 

[MARIS61]

Throughout history, whenever the people actually have had the courage to take to the streets to protest undue governmental influence by the uberwealthy, Freedom takes a giant step forward.

If this keeps growing, DHS will eventually try to crush the movement with drones, assassinations, and mass detainment of civilians. Marshall law is but a Presidential whim away.

Nice to see some Americans still have backbones.

 

[Denny Crane]

I am all for people getting off their asses and protesting for whatever cause they can get behind. We don't have to be so passive that we elect our one representative and let the whole government act against our interests.

 

[Fogojam]

It's hard to know if you agree with it when nobody even knows what it means or is trying to accomplish.

I don't follow them closely but what they want seems pretty obvious to me. They want corporations to stop buying politicians who then act on behalf of the corporations versus the citizens.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

No, they want free student loans and their mortgages forgiven and high paying jobs that would utilize their Master's in Gender studies.

 

[Fogojam]

A simple google search led to a list of "demands" which are currently being voted on.

http://coupmedia.org/occupywallstreet/occupy-wall-street-official-demands-2009

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

a proposed list of hypothetical demands that do not represent the entire movement. bravo.

 

[Fogojam]

No, they want free student loans and their mortgages forgiven and high paying jobs that would utilize their Master's in Gender studies.

You must be referring to this:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

Admin note: This is not an official list of demands. This is a forum post submitted by a single user and hyped by irresponsible news/commentary agencies like Fox News and Mises.org. This content was not published by the OccupyWallSt.org collective, nor was it ever proposed or agreed to on a consensus basis with the NYC General Assembly. There is NO official list of demands.

 

[HailBlazers]

a proposed list of hypothetical demands that do not represent the entire movement. bravo.

how is that any different than your gross generalization of the people participating and what they stand for / want?

I stand along side anyone who is committed to reforming this Country's broken political system.

Occupy Wall Street is a horizontally organized resistance movement to restore democracy in America
http://occupywallst.org/about/

Do you think Democracy is working in America? I don't, it's pretty obvious Corporations along with News/Media Conglomerates are undermining self-government. The election process is a joke.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I thought they wanted a redistribution of wealth?
Many of the protestors are socialists and are advocating this instead of capitalism.

 

[mook]

Much like with the Tea Partiers, my sympathy is always with the little guy trying to fight against bought-out politicians and a corrupt political system. The media portrays one group as cranky old white people, and the other as slacker potheads. *shrug* That's the media for you.

I think corporations and the Republican party have co-opted the Tea Party, which is in some ways unfortunate. I can see how Democrats and unions will try to do so on the left with OWS. But hopefully it's more substantial than that. I'd like to see real campaign reform implemented.

I do think student loans are more than just something kids always whine about. Students are racking up $100b in loans just this year. There's over a trillion dollars in student loan debt out there. Simple napkin math tells you that debt grew by over 10% in one year. That level of growth is unsustainable. In much the way housing price growth was not terribly long ago. Then you look at the jobs situation--it's really, really grim right now for college grads. Yelling at them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps won't do much good.

Vietnam and the draft showed us that kids only vote when shit gets real for them. I would not be shocked at all if they wake up one of these days and decide to vote themselves their own bailout, financed by taxes on some of the total $55 trillion in wealth in this country.

 

[HailBlazers]

Many of the protestors are socialists and are advocating this instead of capitalism.

The Nature of the protest may have drew in some far left leaning people, but by no means does it define the movement.

Back to the Issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html

"Corporations do not equal people and are not covered by free speech. I suppose it's time to amend the Gettysburg Address to "that government of the corporations, by the corporations, for the corporations, shall not perish from the earth."

 

[Denny Crane]

The Nature of the protest may have drew in some far left leaning people, but by no means does it define the movement.

Back to the Issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html

Sorry, but that is utter bullshit. SCOTUS narrowly defined a corporation as a Person for purposes of the 14th Amendment. It only means that States must treat all corporations equally.

They should have certain rights. Free speech would be one of those.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Much like with the Tea Partiers, my sympathy is always with the little guy trying to fight against bought-out politicians and a corrupt political system. The media portrays one group as cranky old white people, and the other as slacker potheads. *shrug* That's the media for you.

I think corporations and the Republican party have co-opted the Tea Party, which is in some ways unfortunate. I can see how Democrats and unions will try to do so on the left with OWS. But hopefully it's more substantial than that. I'd like to see real campaign reform implemented.

I do think student loans are more than just something kids always whine about. Students are racking up $100b in loans just this year. There's over a trillion dollars in student loan debt out there. Simple napkin math tells you that debt grew by over 10% in one year. That level of growth is unsustainable. In much the way housing price growth was not terribly long ago. Then you look at the jobs situation--it's really, really grim right now for college grads. Yelling at them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps won't do much good.

Vietnam and the draft showed us that kids only vote when shit gets real for them. I would not be shocked at all if they wake up one of these days and decide to vote themselves their own bailout, financed by taxes on some of the total $55 trillion in wealth in this country.

Couple of rebuttal questions:
1) Did those racking up "trillions in student loan debt" get forced by the gov't to do so?
2) Did those racking up "trillions in student loan debt" get forced by the gov't to choose fields that are "really, really grim?" The jobs market is pretty damn good right now for engineers, IT and professional trades. Unfortunately, NOT the jobs that English, PE and "Minority Group of Choice Studies" degrees help out with.
3) Vietnam and the draft may have shown that, but there was no "shit get(ting) real for them" in 2008. They voted in that President, and that Congress, and now seem pissed off that their poor choices have manifested results yet again.
4) How, exactly, does Wall Street influence student loan debt?
5) How, exactly, do they plan on getting their Congressman to stop listening to Wall Street and listening to the people?
6) "Vote themselves their own bailout, financed by taxes on some of the total $55T in wealth?" Here's an idea...paying better attention to how those taxes ALREADY FINANCING THE BAILOUT OF NARCISSISTIC SPECIAL INTERESTS are utilized, and then having the people who vote for those who spend the money take responsibility and pay for some of it, too?
Here's some math. I'll accept as fact your $55T in wealth number. But let's go back to another thread, where we show that "wealth" is a horrible way of defining who pays taxes or not. If you assume that each of the 76,000,000 tax returns that didn't pay a cent in income taxes last year paid 1000 each, then you could finance the entire dept. of Defense and all the wars. If you taxed them 2000 a year, it do that AND completely fund Medicare. If you taxed them 2200 each, you could fund the entire budget overrun.
How much "wealth" do those returns entail?

 

[Denny Crane]

Much like with the Tea Partiers, my sympathy is always with the little guy trying to fight against bought-out politicians and a corrupt political system. The media portrays one group as cranky old white people, and the other as slacker potheads. *shrug* That's the media for you.

I think corporations and the Republican party have co-opted the Tea Party, which is in some ways unfortunate. I can see how Democrats and unions will try to do so on the left with OWS. But hopefully it's more substantial than that. I'd like to see real campaign reform implemented.

I do think student loans are more than just something kids always whine about. Students are racking up $100b in loans just this year. There's over a trillion dollars in student loan debt out there. Simple napkin math tells you that debt grew by over 10% in one year. That level of growth is unsustainable. In much the way housing price growth was not terribly long ago. Then you look at the jobs situation--it's really, really grim right now for college grads. Yelling at them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps won't do much good.

Vietnam and the draft showed us that kids only vote when shit gets real for them. I would not be shocked at all if they wake up one of these days and decide to vote themselves their own bailout, financed by taxes on some of the total $55 trillion in wealth in this country.

Hogwash.

Who's the treasury secretary? Who did Obama reappoint as Fed Chairman.

Obama spent 1/2 of TARP. He rescued a corporation with it and gave vast sums to banks. The wall street folks that these occupy wall street protesters are angry with. AIG ring a bell? They got massive bailouts so Goldman Sachs would be made 100% whole.

 

[MARIS61]

Hogwash.

Who's the treasury secretary? Who did Obama reappoint as Fed Chairman.

Obama spent 1/2 of TARP. He rescued a corporation with it and gave vast sums to banks. The wall street folks that these occupy wall street protesters are angry with. AIG ring a bell? They got massive bailouts so Goldman Sachs would be made 100% whole.

You seem to be under the delusion that the protesters are supporters of the Democratic Party.

Nothing could be further from the truth. They support no party and accuse all parties.

They recognize we have in truth a one-party system run entirely by Big$ which demands us to pick one of their many puppets over the rest of their many puppets. It's all smoke and mirrors and we've been serving the same master(s) for decades.

 

[Denny Crane]

You seem to be under the delusion that the protesters are supporters of the Democratic Party.

Nothing could be further from the truth. They support no party and accuse all parties.

They recognize we have in truth a one-party system run entirely by Big$ which demands us to pick one of their many puppets over the rest of their many puppets. It's all smoke and mirrors and we've been serving the same master(s) for decades.

That's bullshit, too.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...82965745362.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_News_BlogsModule

An overwhelming majority of demonstrators supported Barack Obama in 2008. Now 51% disapprove of the president while 44% approve, and only 48% say they will vote to re-elect him in 2012, while at least a quarter won't vote.

vs.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

Obama's job approval is 39%. So these people are 9% more likely to support him.

 

[MARIS61]

That's bullshit, too.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...82965745362.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_News_BlogsModule

An overwhelming majority of demonstrators supported Barack Obama in 2008. Now 51% disapprove of the president while 44% approve, and only 48% say they will vote to re-elect him in 2012, while at least a quarter won't vote.

vs.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

Obama's job approval is 39%. So these people are 9% more likely to support him.

You prove my point.

So does your link:

Fewer than one in three (32%) call themselves Democrats, while roughly the same proportion (33%) say they aren't represented by any political party.

I could see Occupy becoming a political party of it's own, with Ralph Nader as it's candidate.

Where is Ralph? I'd expect him to be very vocal about this. Ill health?

 

[barfo]

Obama's job approval is 39%. So these people are 9% more likely to support him.

Bzzt. Job approval not equal to likely to vote for. Correlated? Sure. The same? No.

barfo

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

you've got to be on crack if you don't think the majority of these are liberal nutjobs. or voted for Obama. or will vote for him in 2012.

"BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE IT...DERRRRR!"
\
:MARIS61:

 

[Denny Crane]

Bzzt. Job approval not equal to likely to vote for. Correlated? Sure. The same? No.

barfo

Bzzzt. 56% of the occupy wall street people voted in 2008. 78% of those voted for Obama. 2% of those surveyed say they're republicans.

it's quite slanted to the left, bzzt like it or not.

 

[barfo]

you've got to be on crack if you don't think the majority of these are liberal nutjobs. or voted for Obama. or will vote for him in 2012.

"BUT YOU CAN'T PROVE IT...DERRRRR!"
\
:MARIS61:

It's rather like the tea party not being republicans. Of course they had been in the past, and would be in the future.
However, like at the beginning of the tea party, the occupiers are not currently acting as democrats. It seems highly likely that the movement will either fizzle or be acquired by the democratic party, much as the tea party is now a branch of the republican party. However, it is possible that the democratic party doesn't play it's cards right and the occupiers become a 3rd party instead. Liberals being somewhat less into discipline than conservatives, there is probably a slightly higher chance of the occupiers escaping than there was of the tea party escaping.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Bzzzt. 56% of the occupy wall street people voted in 2008. 78% of those voted for Obama. 2% of those surveyed say they're republicans.

it's quite slanted to the left, bzzt like it or not.

Did I say it wasn't? Throwing out non sequiturs doesn't make your previous statement any less incorrect.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

My hunch is the fleabaggers stay home instead of voting.

 

[Denny Crane]

Did I say it wasn't? Throwing out non sequiturs doesn't make your previous statement any less incorrect.

barfo

With all of Obama's class warfare rhetoric, and now this "movement" starts, you obviously don't see the connection.