Where does Webster fit?

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I expect that they'll give a healthy Martell more opportunities as a backup SF to start the season. But unless his game has taken several steps forward, he will eventually fit in on the end of the bench. If what he's shown is what he's got more of, he's the 4th best option at SF (behind Batum, Roy & Outlaw), and those guys don't get much burn.

STOMP
 
MARIS61 said:
Webster hasn't fit this lineup for 2 years now, and without Sergio feeding him will probably look even more out of place this season as he and Blake have never clicked on court.
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Um Webster didn't get to play last year, and before he went out in pre season, he looked really good. So way to stretch the truth. The way you always do when you don't like a player. It would be much easiser if you said you didn't like them, because that is believable and acceptable. But there is no reason to really make stuff up.

Secondly, how does he not fit? Any SF that plays well fits this lineup. Period.
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
"Batum's offensive production was more efficient than Webster's in his rookie year"

the way you made it sound, you seem to refer to Webster's rookie year.
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I am sorry about it - but since I did give a link that compared them - I thought it would be clear for those that bothered to check it.
 
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BrianFromWA said:
Forgot to finish: I think Webster's going to be surprisingly good this year. I know stats don't predict that, but IF he gets Outlaw-esque minutes (either starting or off the bench) I think you'll be surprised.
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I hope you are right - but to be honest, during his 3rd year Webster did get 28.4 MPG - and Travis never got that many minutes per game (his highest was 27.7, last year).
 
andalusian said:
I hope you are right - but to be honest, during his 3rd year Webster did get 28.4 MPG - and Travis never got that many minutes per game (his highest was 27.7, last year).
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I also felt that Webster didn't get enough credit for his defense the last year he played. I felt he did a pretty good job on some really tough guys to guard.
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
Glad they were on the same team with the same players.
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Again, I find this argument strange. Because Batum was on a team with better offensive players - his usage% was lower. The same would have happened to Webster - when there are better offensive players on the roster - your minutes and touches would go down. Yet, in this lower minutes and usage - he produced more.

Again - I am really not sure why there is such a bind faith in Webster's ability to perform when history has shown us that in 3 years, with more chance to prove himself, he never did as well as Batum did in his rookie year.

Do I hope he proves me wrong - sure, he is a Blazer and him becoming a big start would be nothing but great - but I just find it questionable, at best.
 
hasoos said:
I also felt that Webster didn't get enough credit for his defense the last year he played. I felt he did a pretty good job on some really tough guys to guard.
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His defense, improved, no doubt about it - but again, in a lot more minutes, his defensive winscore was not higher than Batum's rookie defensive win-score.

There is no doubt that Webster is an NBA player, and maybe even a rotation player. But so far, in his career, he has been a below average one - and Batum produced more on both sides of the court during his rookie year.
 
andalusian said:
Again, I find this argument strange. Because Batum was on a team with better offensive players - his usage% was lower. The same would have happened to Webster - when there are better offensive players on the roster - your minutes and touches would go down. Yet, in this lower minutes and usage - he produced more.

Again - I am really not sure why there is such a bind faith in Webster's ability to perform when history has shown us that in 3 years, with more chance to prove himself, he never did as well as Batum did in his rookie year.

Do I hope he proves me wrong - sure, he is a Blazer and him becoming a big start would be nothing but great - but I just find it questionable, at best.
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Produced more? The stats would say otherwise. We had a big hole at the 3 last season. While Batum would have occasional streaks of great play, it was really up and down.

Not saying Martell is guaranteed but he's a few years older, we can bring up Batum more slowly.
 
hasoos said:
Um Webster didn't get to play last year, and before he went out in pre season, he looked really good. So way to stretch the truth.
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you're siting a meaningless preseason blowout of the woeful Kings who were missing their top 2 players as him looking really good??? way to stretch the truth indeed. I'd also point out that he had a good preseason the year before that... unfortunately when the real games started he came back to the mean that has characterized his looking up at mediocre career thus far

STOMP
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
Produced more? The stats would say otherwise. We had a big hole at the 3 last season. While Batum would have occasional streaks of great play, it was really up and down.

Not saying Martell is guaranteed but he's a few years older, we can bring up Batum more slowly.
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The stats do not say otherwise. The goal of the team is to win - and Batum produced more wins. It's pretty simple.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I think Webster's going to be surprisingly good this year. I know stats don't predict that, but IF he gets Outlaw-esque minutes (either starting or off the bench) I think you'll be surprised.
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I couldn't disagree more. He's going to start off mediocre, he'll see his minutes cut and he'll go into a deep state of despondency mixed with ennui that even his shrink can't fix. By December he's getting caught in airport security with both a handgun and a half a pound of weed, having sloppy seconds sex with one of Zach Randolph's dogs, and throwing used bubble gum at a group of rednecks during a kid's coat drive because he thinks they are going to lynch him. Why? It's the Blazers, and we've got years of crazy to catch up on.
 
andalusian said:
The stats do not say otherwise. The goal of the team is to win - and Batum produced more wins. It's pretty simple.
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yes, had nothing to do with an emerging Brandon Roy, LMA and the presence of Greg Oden and Rudy Fernandez.

:ohno: it was all nic Batum and his 5ppg!
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
yes, had nothing to do with an emerging Brandon Roy, LMA and the presence of Greg Oden and Rudy Fernandez.

:ohno: it was all nic Batum and his 5ppg!
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Win-score is calculated based on the players individual production and the delta it has from the league average for the position. Since Roy's, LMAs or Oden's production does not factor into this - this argument is lacking.

Sure, you could argue that having these guys on the team made his job easier - but on the other hand - as shown by usage% and FGA - it also made it harder for him to pad his stats - so generally speaking - I do not really think there is any real meat to this argument.

Again - you are fixated on the raw numbers instead of looking at a composite that considers usage, minutes and efficiency.
 
STOMP said:
you're siting a meaningless preseason blowout of the woeful Kings who were missing their top 2 players as him looking really good??? way to stretch the truth indeed. I'd also point out that he had a good preseason the year before that... unfortunately when the real games started he came back to the mean that has characterized his looking up at mediocre career thus far

STOMP
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Well how is it not a stretch of the truth if he didnt even play? How can he not fit if he isn't even on the court? That is total bullshit.
 
The only answer to this is going to be if Webster is 100% healthy and ready to go by training camp. I am still convinced that we have barely scratched the surface of the player Martell can be. He has really been hampered with low self confidence and lack of dicipline. He really turned a BIG corner last year coming into the season but, unfortunatly, we never got to see it. So, hopefully we will this year and have the SF spot locked up for years to come.

I am looking forward to seeing what Martell can do almost as much as I am looking forward to seeing Odens improvement. This could be an amazingly exciting year.
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
Batum was great at times but other times he totally disappeared
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That describes Webster well, if you change "great at times" to "great in one quarter of one game."

Just look at stats:

Martell: 10.8ppg/3.9rpg/1.2apg 42.4% FG, 38.5%3PT
Nic: 5.4ppg/2.8rpg/0.8apg 44.6%FG, 36.9% 3PT

I think people are overrating Batum based on a few nice runs. I don't see how he's "clearly outplayed him"
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Webster played his healthy seasons on much worse teams than last year's Blazers, so had the ball in his hands more (he would not have gotten as many possessions to use on last year's team, with Roy blowing up, Aldridge improving greatly as the season went on, Rudy playing well, etc). Batum actually had a higher scoring efficiency, Assist Rate (percentage of team's points he assisted on) and Rebound Rate (percentage of possible rebounds that he got).

When you also factor in that Batum is a much better defender, it's hard to find anything that Webster does better.
 
yeah, well, you can pull any random stat out of your ass and ignore others just to prove your point. You can also say that since Batum had more talent around him, his play improved and was better since he wasn't a focus defensively.

I'm not bagging on Batum...but he's still 19 or 20 years old and we haven't seen what Webster can bring....I personally think that Batum was more of a throw-in of a starting SF last year than anything and he played good for the situation. However, I think that Martell will be the starter...his main problem was mental toughness and hopefully he's gotten that with sitting a year and with age.
 
and we haven't seen what Webster can bring
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This is always my biggest problem with what people say about Webster. We saw 3 years of what Webster could bring. Why do you feel we haven't seen what he can bring?
 
Mediocre Man said:
This is always my biggest problem with what people say about Webster. We saw 3 years of what Webster could bring. Why do you feel we haven't seen what he can bring?
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straight to high school guys take a while sometimes. he's improved steadily every season.
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
yeah, well, you can pull any random stat out of your ass and ignore others just to prove your point.
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There's nothing random about using more sophisticated statistics that account for factors like how many possessions a player used, how many rebounds were available, etc. Also, I have no idea why you say "just to prove my point," since I almost exclusively use advanced numbers like PER, Assist Rate, Rebound Rate, etc. It's not like I'm using them here because they favour Batum.

You can also say that since Batum had more talent around him, his play improved and was better since he wasn't a focus defensively.
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You can say that, but since Webster basically only shot open shots, I don't find it convincing. He was never the "focus" of the defense. Randolph was and then Roy. Webster generally stood in one place and shot when open and was passed the ball. He wasn't creating against defensive focus.

I'm not bagging on Batum...but he's still 19 or 20 years old and we haven't seen what Webster can bring
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We've seen what Webster brought his first three seasons and it was very little. It's certainly possible that he'll improve, since he's still young, but his lack of improvement over his first three seasons doesn't inspire confidence that he's got a lot more ahead of him. And Batum will also improve...he's even younger, much less experienced and doesn't have an established stagnant development path, so I think Batum is likely to improve more next season than Webster will over his last healthy season.

I personally think that Batum was more of a throw-in of a starting SF last year than anything and he played good for the situation.
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However you label it, he played better than Webster has. There was no major difference between them offensively, but Batum was a far better defender.
 
One thing the stats don't take into account is how Batum would, on occasion, get that "deer in the headlight" look on his face. He would also, on occasion, get really aggressive and attack the rim (hi there Pau Gasol!). We saw this in the playoffs when Houston basically took Batum out of the equation. I would like to see Batum gain a bit more confidence this season, and attack the rim more often.

I feel like we were finally seeing Webster attack the rim when he was hurt. I had been wanting to see a more aggressive Martell for years, and it appeared like what was what we were finally getting. If Web can be aggressive, move without the ball, and attack the rim, I think he can be a very good player. When he stands around and jacks up threes, he is one dimensional and ineffective. When he runs off screens and looks for the open shot, he can be one of the deadliest shooters in the NBA. Just my opinion (and hope).
 
BTOWN_HUSTLA said:
OH MY GODSZ:

WEBSTER:
http://www.82games.com/0708/07POR7A.HTM

BATUM:
http://www.82games.com/0809/08POR6.HTM#pstats

someone tell me what the fuck these numbers mean! thanks!
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Sure. I will help.

The numbers say that if Webster was on the floor for 48 minutes a game, the Blazers, in 2007, would be -1.9 points to their opponents. The numbers also say that if Batum was on the floor for 48 minutes a game, the Blazers, in 2008, would be a +6.1 points to their opponents.

It also tells us that the Blazers won 47.3% of the time Webster was on the floor, but won 50% of the time when Batum was on the floor.

We also see that Webster is mostly used as a jump shooter - more than 4 out of every 5 shots he took were a distance jump shot - Batum is more versatile as only 2 out of every 3 shots he takes were jump shots.

We also see that Batum is a better passer than Webster, same with rebounds. He is a lot better at blocking.

The Hands rating shows that Webster does not really work well as a ball handling player. Batum was better - and I suspect that he will get much better as time goes on - he just seems like he can move laterally with the ball.

We do not have the following information for Webster - since they only started recording it (or publishing it) for the last year - but if you look at the 5 unit win rate - it seems that when Batum is asked to take a bigger load on offense - the team wins more. This leads me to suspect that Batum was actually under-utilized last year on offense. Another thing we see is that Batum was actually really succesful as SF - not so much at PF and not really as a SG. Surprisingly, where he was really successful defensively - was more against small-guards and power forwards - and not so much against small-forwards.
 
Natebishop3 said:
We're inching closer to the season, and it's looking like we won't be making any other moves, so I'm wondering where Martell fits into all this.

If he's healthy, where do you envision him? We have quite the logjam at small forward, especially with Rudy logging spot minutes there. How do we keep everyone happy?

Let's say that Miller and Blake play all the minutes at point guard. Brandon plays 35+ minutes per game, which could be split between three positions depending on who we play.

Who starts? Who comes off the bench? Does Martell sit? Batum? How many minutes does Outlaw log at power forward? Does Rudy play small forward at times?
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If Webster stays healthy, he isn't going to have a problem fitting in. Something inside of me really thinks and believes he is ready to take off. If he stays healthy and feels good. I expect him to start at three with Batum backing him up. Outlaw is slated in by the coaching staff at the four position. So he will get his minutes there. I still think, I would take that asset and move it for something more bulkier, physical and meaner.

But as long as Webs is healthy. He won't have any problems fitting in.
 
I'd like to see Martell succeed and hope he succeeds. He has the best pure stroke from the outside, and he's got some sneaky athleticism to his game ala B-Roy. But his injury definitely worries me if he's not 100 percent by training camp.
 
Mediocre Man said:
This is always my biggest problem with what people say about Webster. We saw 3 years of what Webster could bring. Why do you feel we haven't seen what he can bring?
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It's funny how some players attract a cult following. Look at how some fans are all pumped up about Cunningham, just because he was adequate in summer league. Even if Webster is 100% healthy and Batum still clearly outplays him, some fans will make excuses for the guy.

Personally, I suspect it is a form of defense mechanism.....the desperate desire to believe that Nash wasn't such a complete clown as to prefer this guy to Paul and Williams!
 
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