Which is More Significant: Finishing 3rd in the West or the Playoff Sweep?

[Chris Craig]

So rebuilding is only when you're at the foundation stage? If you haven't completed your build, what do you call that? https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rebuilding 2015, we dismantled our core (Wes, Nico, LA), The past three years we've been (albeit slowly) take your pick: replacing, restrengthening, reinforcing, revising, reshaping, reorganizing.

Retooling...a 6 year retooling

Look, its a 6 year retooling coughrebuildcough, we got the guys we wanted.

 

[Chris Craig]

The Blazers (Neil) won't admit it....didn't Neil call it that in his exit interview...the Blazers are rebuilding. Just not the way teams usually do it. The Blazers are trying a new fangled and arguably not successful (At least Neil's way) method to rebuild on the go, adding a guy here and a guy there each season until it the roster is a contender. When a team is rebuilding this way they shouldn't offer guys like Turner, Meyers, and Crabbe large contracts...it should be in fact shorter contracts for the most part to enable players to be moved easier if they don't work out, or a deal needs to be done to bring in a better talent.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Anyone who voted 49 wins should give up their fan card, IMO. Playoffs are all that matter, and we sucked.

By fan card, I assume you mean one of these:

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Sounds like you're more interested in an analyst card. You can have it.

They even make a special fan card just for Kobe fans:

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

Most go into a rebuild wit ha 3-5 year plan. 6 isnt outrageous.

Not unless you don't tear it down first. NO is trying it by staying average

 

[Mediocre Man]

By fan card, I assume you mean one of these:

BNM

If you feel you're as victim, sure, I guess?

Not sure what that has to do with this though?

Or are you saying Portland was the victim of assault in the playoffs?

 

[hoopsjock]

Seriously, you’re arguing that three years is an unusually long time to complete a rebuild? That’s quite a take, but you’re welcome to your opinion.

The Blazers undertook the most unusual of rebuilds: the no missing the playoffs, no lottery picks model. I don’t think that was the plan on Olshey’s part, but Dame and CJ didn’t get the memo about tanking in 2015-16. Olshey screwed up the summer of 2016’s cap space by blowing it on guys who haven’t helped much. He hasn’t been able to make a significant trade in that period other than Nurk (and I’m not sure he really was convinced that Nurk was going to be a keeper). He’s drafted well, but mainly from outside of lottery territory (got Collins by consolidating two lower picks). I’d say the rebuild being as far along as it is after three years like that is a testament to just how good Dame and CJ are.

The Blazers are still making do with stop-gap guys at PF and SF (Aminu and Harkless). Maybe Collins grows into the starting PF this year. Maybe Harkless finally matures and puts in a full season of quality work and earns the title of starting SF. If those things happen then, yeah, the rebuild is done. If not, the team needs a trade or some real draft luck.

But then, I think you’re a smart enough guy to know all of the above and you just enjoy arguing over things ad infinitum.

I see both yours and Bones points on this. In my opinion the last 3 years have been a rebuild. My problem with the rebuild phase is that going into the 4th year you shouldn't still have stop gap players with major roles.

In order to have a successful rebuild my belief is you have to add one major piece in each off season. If you get two or three in one off season then even better and that can offset the off seasons where no piece was added. If you aren't adding a major piece then you aren't building. Now the first off season of this rebuild we already had Dame and CJ on the roster so I guess you can either count those as the two for that off season or you can say that they don't count.

Off Season #1: Plumlee, Aminu, Davis, Vonleh, Henderson, Connaughton, Harkless, Montero, Alexander, Roberts (In Season)

While several of those guys were good pick ups and have played a key roles I wouldn't count any of them as adding a major piece (although more about Plumlee next). Harkless is the only one who still could evolve into that. Aminu could be a solid role player on a good team. These moves were all pretty solid in my opinion but fail to provide any foundational type talents.

Off Season #2: Layman, Napier, Turner, Ezeli, Quarterman, Nurkic (In Season)

With how much cap space we had this was a complete and utter failure in terms of a 2nd year of a rebuild. Instead of adding another major piece we got Turner who most don't even think should be on the court. Olshey's job was saved by getting Nurkic. It took two off seasons and until the trade deadline of the 2nd season to add another major piece to the two you already had.

Off Season #3: Collins, Swanigan, Baldwin, PapaG (In Season)

It's too early to tell on Collins and even maybe Baldwin but lets say for the sake of being optimistic that Collins is going to be the foundational piece that Olshey thought he would. So best case scenario after 3 years you have Dame, CJ, Collins, and Nurk as major pieces. Worst case scenario you only have Dame, CJ, and Nurk, two of which you started the process with.

Off Season #4: Simons, Trent, Stauskas, Curry

By the 4th season you should be able to tell if the rebuild is going to translate into contention, a good team without a super high celing, mediocrity, or a perennial lottery team still. I think this is a good team without a championship ceiling even if all the best case scenarios pan out for individual players. Drafting a guy like Simons could be a great pick but it looks like at least a 2 year project which would be outside of the 5 year rebuild. I don't mind thinking of the future but that is the type of player that signifies that you are still early in the rebuild. Especially combined with adding other Aminu/Harkless type role players in Curry and Trent.

There could still be a miracle trade (hopefully) but this means that after 4 off seasons of rebuilding we've added Nurkic during one of the seasons and only if you include Collins can you say that even one of the 4 off seasons Olshey was able to add a major piece. What does this mean? If the claim is that we are only in year 4 of a 5 year rebuild then this rebuild is terrible so far in terms of actually building something.

 

[Chris Craig]

I see both yours and Bones points on this. In my opinion the last 3 years have been a rebuild. My problem with the rebuild phase is that going into the 4th year you shouldn't still have stop gap players with major roles.

In order to have a successful rebuild my belief is you have to add one major piece in each off season. If you get two or three in one off season then even better and that can offset the off seasons where no piece was added. If you aren't adding a major piece then you aren't building. Now the first off season of this rebuild we already had Dame and CJ on the roster so I guess you can either count those as the two for that off season or you can say that they don't count.

Off Season #1: Plumlee, Aminu, Davis, Vonleh, Henderson, Connaughton, Harkless, Montero, Alexander, Roberts (In Season)

While several of those guys were good pick ups and have played a key roles I wouldn't count any of them as adding a major piece (although more about Plumlee next). Harkless is the only one who still could evolve into that. Aminu could be a solid role player on a good team. These moves were all pretty solid in my opinion but fail to provide any foundational type talents.

Off Season #2: Layman, Napier, Turner, Ezeli, Quarterman, Nurkic (In Season)

With how much cap space we had this was a complete and utter failure in terms of a 2nd year of a rebuild. Instead of adding another major piece we got Turner who most don't even think should be on the court. Olshey's job was saved by getting Nurkic. It took two off seasons and until the trade deadline of the 2nd season to add another major piece to the two you already had.

Off Season #3: Collins, Swanigan, Baldwin, PapaG (In Season)

It's too early to tell on Collins and even maybe Baldwin but lets say for the sake of being optimistic that Collins is going to be the foundational piece that Olshey thought he would. So best case scenario after 3 years you have Dame, CJ, Collins, and Nurk as major pieces. Worst case scenario you only have Dame, CJ, and Nurk, two of which you started the process with.

Off Season #4: Simons, Trent, Stauskas, Curry

By the 4th season you should be able to tell if the rebuild is going to translate into contention, a good team without a super high celing, mediocrity, or a perennial lottery team still. I think this is a good team without a championship ceiling even if all the best case scenarios pan out for individual players. Drafting a guy like Simons could be a great pick but it looks like at least a 2 year project which would be outside of the 5 year rebuild. I don't mind thinking of the future but that is the type of player that signifies that you are still early in the rebuild. Especially combined with adding other Aminu/Harkless type role players in Curry and Trent.

There could still be a miracle trade (hopefully) but this means that after 4 off seasons of rebuilding we've added Nurkic during one of the seasons and only if you include Collins can you say that even one of the 4 off seasons Olshey was able to add a major piece. What does this mean? If the claim is that we are only in year 4 of a 5 year rebuild then this rebuild is terrible so far in terms of actually building something.

It has not been a "successful rebuild."

 

[Boob-No-More]

If you feel you're as victim, sure, I guess?

Not sure what that has to do with this though?

Or are you saying Portland was the victim of assault in the playoffs?

Nope, I'm saying many posters around here do more complaining than cheering. For them, the victim card is more appropriate than a fan card.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

It has not been a "successful rebuild."

Its not over.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Nope, I'm saying many posters around here do more complaining than cheering. For them, the victim card is more appropriate than a fan card.

BNM

Those posters complain because they want so badly for their team to win. Are they better or worse than the 45-50 wins and a first round playoff exit most years fans?

 

[Boob-No-More]

So a 6 year retooling by adding role players?

We've added more than role players over the past 6 years.

6 years ago, we added Damian Lillard. 4th in MVP and 1st team all-NBA is definitely not a role player.

5 years ago, we added C.J. McCollum. A player capable who averaged 23 ppg while having one of the 6 best shooting seasons in the entire history of the league is not a role player.

1.5 years ago we added Nurk. While some may consider him a role player, I consider a 23-year old who completely transforms your defense from bottom 5 to top 8, while also averaging 15 ppg as your 3rd option more of a foundation piece than a role player. He will only continue to get better and is locked up for 4 more years on a very team friendly contract.

If you only look at the last four years, and consider Nurk a role player, I could see your point.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

Ill just say this. We dont all go through puberty at the same time.

3 teams could pick relatively the same players for their rebuild. Some might get it in year one. Some might get it in year three.

A rebuild shouldnt have a specific timeline or you leave yourself caught in a corner all too often, trying to adhere to a timeline can force you to make moves you shouldnt.

The more I think about it the more I am content with what NO has done recently. 2016 sucked for sure, we can all agree. But since then sooo many people want some quick fix when there isn't one.

Even when all the pcs to the puzzle are there some teams may take a couple years ot gel. some get it in half a season. All teams dont mature at the same time.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Those posters complain because they want so badly for their team to win. Are they better or worse than the 45-50 wins and a first round playoff exit most years fans?

Not if you go by the Miriam Webster definition of fanatic - which fan is short for: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Constantly complaining about anything and everything dos not meet my definition of excessive enthusiasm or intense uncritical devotion. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

I chose to enjoy and savor every win. Sure, I'm disappointed when they lose, but like the players, I put the loss in the rear view mirror and look forward to the next game.

Is the team perfect? No, I'm devoted, not blind, but all the complaining in the world won't make them better. So, what's the point? You can choose to enjoy the team for what they are - a 49-win team with a 1st team All-NBAer, our you can constantly grumble and complain about things you can't control. It's a choice.

BNM

 

[Gronk Brady]

The only purpose of regular season is to put you in the best position to make and win in the playoffs... 3rd seed and 49 wins means absolutely nothing if you can’t do anything with it. It’s like getting a masters degree then getting a job bussing tables at Applebee’s. This roster has major flaws and Neil failed to address any of them... we got swept by the freakin Pelicans and Neil’s solution to the problem is Seth Curry. Neil is now selling to the fans that Seth Curry is the difference between Blazers getting swept and Blazers winning a playoff series against the Pelicans... he is an even bigger used car salesman con artist than I ever imagined.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Not if you go by the Miriam Webster definition of fanatic - which fan is short for: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Constantly complaining about anything and everything dos not meet my definition of excessive enthusiasm or intense uncritical devotion. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

I chose to enjoy and savor every win. Sure, I'm disappointed when they lose, but like the players, I put the loss in the rear view mirror and look forward to the next game.

Is the team perfect? No, I'm devoted, not blind, but all the complaining in the world won't make them better. So, what's the point? You can choose to enjoy the team for what they are - a 49-win team with a 1st team All-NBAer, our you can constantly grumble and complain about things you can't control. It's a choice.

BNM

I disagree about complaining not making them better. The only way change will happen is if fans voice their unhappiness and PA sees it in dollars

 

[Boob-No-More]

I disagree about complaining not making them better. The only way change will happen is if fans voice their unhappiness and PA sees it in dollars

How does your constant complaining impact Paul Allen's bottom line? You don't even live in Portland or attend games.

Home attendance last season averaged 19,398. That was 8th best in the league and 99.8% of capacity.

If complaining is the answer, you're not very effective at it, in spite of how hard you try.

BNM

 

[Mediocre Man]

How does your constant complaining impact Paul Allen's bottom line? You don't even live in Portland or attend games.

Home attendance last season averaged 19,398. That was 8th best in the league and 99.8% of capacity.

If complaining is the answer, you're not very effective at it, in spite of how hard you try.

BNM

It would be a fun game to see which ones here does not have season tickets. I feel I've earned the right to bitch and complain.

But your point is spot on. 99.8% full is what I'm t as long about. Why change if you PA?

 

[Boob-No-More]

It would be a fun game to see which ones here does not have season tickets. I feel I've earned the right to bitch and complain.

But your point is spot on. 99.8% full is what I'm t as long about. Why change if you PA?

So, you admit your constant complaining has zero impact on Paul Allen's bottom line.

Yet, you persist.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Seriously, you’re arguing that three years is an unusually long time to complete a rebuild? That’s quite a take, but you’re welcome to your opinion.

The Blazers undertook the most unusual of rebuilds: the no missing the playoffs, no lottery picks model. I don’t think that was the plan on Olshey’s part, but Dame and CJ didn’t get the memo about tanking in 2015-16. Olshey screwed up the summer of 2016’s cap space by blowing it on guys who haven’t helped much. He hasn’t been able to make a significant trade in that period other than Nurk (and I’m not sure he really was convinced that Nurk was going to be a keeper). He’s drafted well, but mainly from outside of lottery territory (got Collins by consolidating two lower picks). I’d say the rebuild being as far along as it is after three years like that is a testament to just how good Dame and CJ are.

The Blazers are still making do with stop-gap guys at PF and SF (Aminu and Harkless). Maybe Collins grows into the starting PF this year. Maybe Harkless finally matures and puts in a full season of quality work and earns the title of starting SF. If those things happen then, yeah, the rebuild is done. If not, the team needs a trade or some real draft luck.

But then, I think you’re a smart enough guy to know all of the above and you just enjoy arguing over things ad infinitum.

Not at all. People have different definitions I guess, but I'm tired of "We're rebuilding" being used as an excuse to suck.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Not at all. People have different definitions I guess, but I'm tired of "We're rebuilding" being used as an excuse to suck.

49 wins sucks? What's that say about the 23 teams that won fewer that 49 games? What about the 9 teams that won fewer than 29 games? If 49 wins is the definition of sucking, what do you call teams that won half that many games?

BNM

 

[Gronk Brady]

49 wins sucks? What's that say about the 23 teams that won fewer that 49 games? What about the 9 teams that won fewer than 29 games? If 49 wins is the definition of sucking, what do you call teams that won half that many games?

BNM

Those 9 teams that won fewer than 29 regular season games won the exact same amount of playoff games as the Blazers... ZERO... and they added a lottery pick to their roster while Blazers added Seth Curry

 

[e_blazer]

So a 6 year retooling by adding role players?

If you're looking for me to try to make excuses for Olshey, that boat has long since left port. I think he's done an okay job of drafting, a horrible job of managing the cap, and a terrible job of bringing in free agents or making trades that have benefited the team. I think he'd probably be done if it weren't for the fact that there's not likely to be another quality GM willing to take on the Blazers until they get closer to being out of cap hell.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Not if you go by the Miriam Webster definition of fanatic - which fan is short for: marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion.

Constantly complaining about anything and everything dos not meet my definition of excessive enthusiasm or intense uncritical devotion. In fact, it's exactly the opposite.

I chose to enjoy and savor every win. Sure, I'm disappointed when they lose, but like the players, I put the loss in the rear view mirror and look forward to the next game.

Is the team perfect? No, I'm devoted, not blind, but all the complaining in the world won't make them better. So, what's the point? You can choose to enjoy the team for what they are - a 49-win team with a 1st team All-NBAer, our you can constantly grumble and complain about things you can't control. It's a choice.

BNM

Great post.

I disagree about complaining not making them better. The only way change will happen is if fans voice their unhappiness and PA sees it in dollars

Yeah. My $42.50 denial for my seats will show PA!!!

You cant be serious with that. For every person not going ot a game, there will be another wanting to go. This is almost Gronk worthy.

If I yell at the wall long enough, it wont be a wall anymore....

Yeah right....

 

[BonesJones]

49 wins sucks? What's that say about the 23 teams that won fewer that 49 games? What about the 9 teams that won fewer than 29 games? If 49 wins is the definition of sucking, what do you call teams that won half that many games?

BNM

Don't add your own context to what I said. Hopefully I can clear this up:

Notice how people were saying "the rebuild is over" at the end of the season, and then after the sweep it changed to "Well, we're still rebuilding"...

 

[e_blazer]

Not at all. People have different definitions I guess, but I'm tired of "We're rebuilding" being used as an excuse to suck.

I've never used rebuilding as "an excuse to suck". In the first place, I don't think the Blazers suck. In the second place, I don't get caught up in either blaming or excusing things relating to the Blazers. Sometimes I'll point out my opinion as to why something happened, but I'm more here for the enjoyment of rooting for the team and having fun with fellow Blazers fans. I guess I just don't see that my opinion on what the Blazers should or shouldn't do amounts to much more than an opportunity to kick things around with friends.

 

[Gronk Brady]

.

 

[Gronk Brady]

I've never used rebuilding as "an excuse to suck". In the first place, I don't think the Blazers suck. In the second place, I don't get caught up in either blaming or excusing things relating to the Blazers. Sometimes I'll point out my opinion as to why something happened, but I'm more here for the enjoyment of rooting for the team and having fun with fellow Blazers fans. I guess I just don't see that my opinion on what the Blazers should or shouldn't do amounts to much more than an opportunity to kick things around with friends.

Some teams actually value what the fans think

Masai: “The fans are always on my mind, but they don’t have the information that we have and that sometimes makes it hard. If we didn’t do anything, I think everybody would by (mad). ‘It’s the same team ... will only lose in the playoffs again would be the narrative.’”

vs.

Neil: "But this idea that (we need) sweeping changes. Where were all these people that wanted sweeping changes 10 days ago? Where were they? They were the ones bouncing off the walls in the Moda Center when we got the third seed for the first time since 1999-00... Relative to people back in December who were complaining that we weren't going to make the playoffs and we were in purgatory because we weren't going to make the playoffs and we weren't going to pick high enough. Right? That was the rallying cry. Then it was, 'Oh my God. They're going to blow the third seed because they're going to lose all these games. They're not even going to get home court advantage.' They overreacted to that.”

 

[e_blazer]

Don't add your own context to what I said. Hopefully I can clear this up:

Notice how people were saying "the rebuild is over" at the end of the season, and then after the sweep it changed to "Well, we're still rebuilding"...

Nope. I didn't notice that. If it happened, I don't agree with it. As long as Aminu and Harkless are still on the starting roster, my view is that there's still rebuilding to be done.

 

[e_blazer]

Some teams actually value what the fans think

Masai: “The fans are always on my mind, but they don’t have the information that we have and that sometimes makes it hard. If we didn’t do anything, I think everybody would by (mad). ‘It’s the same team ... will only lose in the playoffs again would be the narrative.’”

vs.

Neil: "But this idea that (we need) sweeping changes. Where were all these people that wanted sweeping changes 10 days ago? Where were they? They were the ones bouncing off the walls in the Moda Center when we got the third seed for the first time since 1999-00... Relative to people back in December who were complaining that we weren't going to make the playoffs and we were in purgatory because we weren't going to make the playoffs and we weren't going to pick high enough. Right? That was the rallying cry. Then it was, 'Oh my God. They're going to blow the third seed because they're going to lose all these games. They're not even going to get home court advantage.' They overreacted to that.”

Any GM who pays the least little bit of attention to what fans think should be done with respect to actual moves by the team ought to be fired on the spot. Jeez, what a stupid notion.