Politics White Nationalist Rally turns to violence and terrorism

[Phatguysrule]

I think Phatguysrule inferred from your statement about being infuriated which he should not have done. He should have checked with you first. But it's not the worst offense I've seen.

I understand your point, and I appreciate it. However, I don't feel that my line of thinking is at all controversial.

I simply inferred from his insistence that the white supremacists had the right to be there, and the right to speak their mind, that he thought somebody was advocating for the restriction of those rights.

If so, I was trying to understand why he thought that.

If nobody advocated for restrictions then there is no reason to advocate for a right everybody already knows and supports.

I'm still confused as to how this can be at all controversial.

You either support violence, terrorism, and/or hate or you don't.

If you don't support those things, and don't want to be called out for supporting those things, then don't publicly defend the actions of people who are supporting those things.

It seems very simple to me. Unless somebody specifically proposed a restriction on freedom of assembly or freedom of speech, advocating for those things in this thread (and refusing to discuss why) just seems like a straw man argument to distract against the real issues.

 

[Lanny]

I understand your point, and I appreciate it. However, I don't feel that my line of thinking is at all controversial.

I simply inferred from his insistence that the white supremacists had the right to be there, and the right to speak their mind, that he thought somebody was advocating for the restriction of those rights.

If so, I was trying to understand why he thought that.

If nobody advocated for restrictions then there is no reason to advocate for a right everybody already knows and supports.

I'm still confused as to how this can be at all controversial.

You either support violence, terrorism, and/or hate or you don't.

If you don't support those things, and don't want to be called out for supporting those things, then don't publicly defend the actions of people who are supporting those things.

It seems very simple to me. Unless somebody specifically proposed a restriction on freedom of assembly or freedom of speech, advocating for those things in this thread (and refusing to discuss why) just seems like a straw man argument to distract against the real issues.

White Supremacists should not have been there and were not wanted there by the locals even the locals who wanted the statues to remain did not want the White Supremacists there. Period, exclamation point.

 

[Phatguysrule]

White Supremacists should not have been there and were not wanted there by the locals even the locals who wanted the statues to remain did not want the White Supremacists there. Period, exclamation point.

Exactly. There is no middle ground. White Supremacists should not be tolerated. They should be shouted down and made to feel foolish for their insane views.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Have i ever let on that i think they (racists, kkk, etc)should hold any political power or seat at any political table? If so please show me, as I'm sure there is a misunderstanding. Otherwise, I've never refuted anything you just said, so I'm not sure about this hill I'm dieing on?…unless…

LOL…

 

[Lanny]

LOL…

Whatever else, I know you to be a good person and would raise my beer as a toast to that fact anytime.

 

[crandc]

Hits 'em where it hurts most.

Jury finds Unite the Right defendants liable for more than $26 million in damages

Bravo

 

[Chris Craig]

You've seen the former leader of the proud boys right?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

You've seen the former leader of the proud boys right?

No

 

[Chris Craig]

@Orion Bailey

I understand what you are saying in that all Americans are free to think and believe what they want. Sure they are. There is a right to free speech sure. A right to peaceful assembly.

I get that is all you were saying. I don't think you were trying to defend white supremacists or agree with their rhetoric or ideologies.

But, it goes beyond that. Just because they are allowed to believe it, doesn't mean it should tolerated. Because what they believe is not ok.

Hate speech is not free speech. Their assembly is not peaceful. And, I'm not just talking about their fights with Antifa and such or even the assault rifles alit of them carry around in public to intimidate others.

I'm talking about the flags they brandish and what those flags stand for. Their ideologies preaching superiority of one race over all others. They seek genocide of all other races. That's not peaceful. Nothing peaceful about it.

I'm sorry if you think everyone against that is treating them unfairly. Tough.

I don't care if they believe it. There are always going to be people believing fucked up shit. But, when it threatens to become main stream, when a person who supports them is elected to the highest power and other leaders in our government are buying into it, lending credence to these hateful ideologies, it can't be tolerated.

And, you can argue well the other side gets to believe what they want and don't get attacked for it. Well, for one we are under attack from the right and often.

Two, look at what the left is protesting for. Equality for everyone. BLM matter is about equality. Something good, not hateful.

And, if you want to bring in the riots. That's mostly Antifa who just wants chaos. All of that breaking windows and starting of fires and all that bs shouldn't be tolerated either and isn't ok.

 

[Chris Craig]

No

You gotta be bullshitting me

Go look at Enrique Tarrio

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

You gotta be bullshitting me

Go look at Enrique Tarrio

The other two perps were part of Virginia Democrats. This guy was also likely a plant, since they were coordinated.

 

[Chris Craig]

The other two perps were part of Virginia Democrats. This guy was also likely a plant, since they were coordinated.

Tarrio was not a plant

Sorry

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Tarrio was not a plant

Sorry

Sorry, I don't follow the Proud Boys. Sounds kinda sus.

 

[Orion Bailey]

@Orion Bailey

I understand what you are saying in that all Americans are free to think and believe what they want. Sure they are. There is a right to free speech sure. A right to peaceful assembly.

I get that is all you were saying. I don't think you were trying to defend white supremacists or agree with their rhetoric or ideologies.

But, it goes beyond that. Just because they are allowed to believe it, doesn't mean it should tolerated. Because what they believe is not ok.

Hate speech is not free speech. Their assembly is not peaceful. And, I'm not just talking about their fights with Antifa and such or even the assault rifles alit of them carry around in public to intimidate others.

I'm talking about the flags they brandish and what those flags stand for. Their ideologies preaching superiority of one race over all others. They seek genocide of all other races. That's not peaceful. Nothing peaceful about it.

I'm sorry if you think everyone against that is treating them unfairly. Tough.

I don't care if they believe it. There are always going to be people believing fucked up shit. But, when it threatens to become main stream, when a person who supports them is elected to the highest power and other leaders in our government are buying into it, lending credence to these hateful ideologies, it can't be tolerated.

And, you can argue well the other side gets to believe what they want and don't get attacked for it. Well, for one we are under attack from the right and often.

Two, look at what the left is protesting for. Equality for everyone. BLM matter is about equality. Something good, not hateful.

And, if you want to bring in the riots. That's mostly Antifa who just wants chaos. All of that breaking windows and starting of fires and all that bs shouldn't be tolerated either and isn't ok.

i have no sympathy for any verbal assault against someone who wants to advertise hatred of anyone.
Its when one uses violence to silence a loud mouth that i disagree with.
Everyone is fully free to counter protest or protest against gatherings of people who are for some sort of racial domination. Its when we go to cut them out of the equation that it becomes an act that lowers us to their level.

Once violence is used to silence racist voice who wants some people to be eliminated, the offender lowers themselves down to the level of the racist.

We will never beat racism with violence. Because that paves the path for the children to grow up seeking revenge. This has pretty much been the case since the beginning of time because there has always been someone who wants someone else gone.

Unfortunately people hate for no real good reason. My opinion is the best way to have it fade away is by goving it as little attention as possible while still monitoring it to make sure if isnt growing.
And i dont think racism is growing.
I think it has been diminishing for a long time but in todays media world, We see one thing and think everyone is like that.

i think the few who are racist did come out of the closet when trump took office so it seems like racism is growing.
I think its just publicized more to make people think its growing and cause hysteria.

 

[Chris Craig]

LOL I hope you're not saying the guy in the photo of the tweet @EL PRESIDENTE posted is Tario (it's not him).

No I'm not

He posted a picture of that guy saying a smart choice to play a white supremacist because he is black

I pointed out Tarrio, a real white supremacist and former leader of the proud boys is African American/Cuban

 

[Hoopguru]

i have no sympathy for any verbal assault against someone who wants to advertise hatred of anyone.
Its when one uses violence to silence a loud mouth that i disagree with.
Everyone is fully free to counter protest or protest against gatherings of people who are for some sort of racial domination. Its when we go to cut them out of the equation that it becomes an act that lowers us to their level.

Once violence is used to silence racist voice who wants some people to be eliminated, the offender lowers themselves down to the level of the racist.

We will never beat racism with violence. Because that paves the path for the children to grow up seeking revenge. This has pretty much been the case since the beginning of time because there has always been someone who wants someone else gone.

Unfortunately people hate for no real good reason. My opinion is the best way to have it fade away is by goving it as little attention as possible while still monitoring it to make sure if isnt growing.
And i dont think racism is growing.
I think it has been diminishing for a long time but in todays media world, We see one thing and think everyone is like that.

i think the few who are racist did come out of the closet when trump took office so it seems like racism is growing.
I think its just publicized more to make people think its growing and cause hysteria.

The media is all political now. Its all indoctrination that young people are growing up with.
Todays media is like religious zealots of all faiths.

 

[crandc]

Evil does not disappear if ignored.

 

[Orion Bailey]

If one thinks they can or will rid the world of evil…


Lol. Wanna but a bridge???

 

[crandc]

So lazy. We can't rid the world of all evil so just ignore it and let the vicious, racists, antiSemites, bigots do whatever they want. Even make their representative president.

 

[Orion Bailey]

As long as there are humans, evil will exist. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fight it.

At what cost though and how though?

verbal condemnation of evil is always good.

ignoring it and monitoring it are much different. And then absolving it is yet another difference.

Sometiems its best to lose the battle to win the war. Pick and choose the fights that matter. Not send troops to every front line that exists. Some are false fronts. Like this okay symbol thing.
False battle line people are choosing to wall up at and drawing a line.

many worse things to be worried about than an ok hand sign.
Thats not ignoring. Thats prioritizing.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Just being a decent human is often good enough. You've told stories of you stepping in to help people when they were being threatened/harmed. That's fighting evil right there.

imminent threat during a situation though. Step in or literally witness evil.

This war of words does nothing but give them a spotlight and a megaphone in todays media crazed communication world.
By giving the ok sign attention, we are giving them exactly what they want. And the more people push back against it, the more they will do it.

however my biggest contention over all of this discussion, are those who think they are right in insulting others who are trying to point out the ok symbol is used for many other things. to say if you use it you racist, is wrong. Even though the person who said that retracted it, Another person goes on and belittles other people for defending the use of it in other facets.

how quick some are to put someone else down for disagreeing, is just pathetic in my opinion. It is extremely telling…

 

[Phatguysrule]

i have no sympathy for any verbal assault against someone who wants to advertise hatred of anyone.
Its when one uses violence to silence a loud mouth that i disagree with.
Everyone is fully free to counter protest or protest against gatherings of people who are for some sort of racial domination. Its when we go to cut them out of the equation that it becomes an act that lowers us to their level.

Once violence is used to silence racist voice who wants some people to be eliminated, the offender lowers themselves down to the level of the racist.

We will never beat racism with violence. Because that paves the path for the children to grow up seeking revenge. This has pretty much been the case since the beginning of time because there has always been someone who wants someone else gone.

Unfortunately people hate for no real good reason. My opinion is the best way to have it fade away is by goving it as little attention as possible while still monitoring it to make sure if isnt growing.
And i dont think racism is growing.
I think it has been diminishing for a long time but in todays media world, We see one thing and think everyone is like that.

i think the few who are racist did come out of the closet when trump took office so it seems like racism is growing.
I think its just publicized more to make people think its growing and cause hysteria.

Don't think so. Being quiet about it allowed it to fester and grow until Trump took office.

It's not just racism, it's ignorance in general. Climate change denial, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, opposition to government spending on math and the sciences (basically anti-education).

It's been a long trend toward allowing ignorance to expand. It culminated in a terrible president who made an attempt at insurrection. And people actually supported it. And still support him.

Silence is no longer acceptable.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The media is all political now. Its all indoctrination that young people are growing up with.
Todays media is like religious zealots of all faiths.

They are owned by the elite. Literally.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Don't think so. Being quiet about it allowed it to fester and grow until Trump took office.

It's not just racism, it's ignorance in general. Climate change denial, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, opposition to government spending on math and the sciences (basically anti-education).

It's been a long trend toward allowing ignorance to expand. It culminated in a terrible president who made an attempt at insurrection. And people actually supported it. And still support him.

Silence is no longer acceptable.

Huh?
i never said silence is acceptable. As a matter of fact, i said im all for verbal condemnation.

Reread the post you just quoted.

 

[Phatguysrule]

i have no sympathy for any verbal assault against someone who wants to advertise hatred of anyone.
Its when one uses violence to silence a loud mouth that i disagree with.
Everyone is fully free to counter protest or protest against gatherings of people who are for some sort of racial domination. Its when we go to cut them out of the equation that it becomes an act that lowers us to their level.

Once violence is used to silence racist voice who wants some people to be eliminated, the offender lowers themselves down to the level of the racist.

We will never beat racism with violence. Because that paves the path for the children to grow up seeking revenge. This has pretty much been the case since the beginning of time because there has always been someone who wants someone else gone.

Unfortunately people hate for no real good reason. My opinion is the best way to have it fade away is by goving it as little attention as possible while still monitoring it to make sure if isnt growing.
And i dont think racism is growing.
I think it has been diminishing for a long time but in todays media world, We see one thing and think everyone is like that.

i think the few who are racist did come out of the closet when trump took office so it seems like racism is growing.
I think its just publicized more to make people think its growing and cause hysteria.

But nobody has advocated for violence for against racist speech...

 

[Phatguysrule]

Huh?
i never said silence is acceptable. As a matter of fact, i said im all for verbal condemnation.

Reread the post you just quoted.

You were originally opposed to people shouting down Proud Boy and other racist rallies. You advocated for ignoring them if we disagreed.

But I'm glad we agree now. They should be shouted down and made to feel silly when they try to publicly support and spread racism, sexism, ignorance, and bigotry.

 

[Orion Bailey]

But nobody has advocated for violence for against racist speech...

go back to the beginning of the thread….

And why does someone need to advocate something for a statement to be said?
I simply clarified my thoughts/opinions.
you then countered that by agreeing with what i said, while saying i was wrong.

And this is your response?
Why is this even a point of contention?…

if you wanna argue, at least pick something of importance….
better yet, wife is waking up and im hungry.
Enjoy.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You were originally opposed to people shouting down Proud Boy and other racist rallies. You advocated for ignoring them if we disagreed.

But I'm glad we agree now. They should be shouted down and made to feel silly when they try to publicly support and spread racism, sexism, ignorance, and bigotry.

not against. Just think its a waste of time. Shouting them down in a forum is different than showing up at thier rallies snd creating a scene the media spreads, giving them light vs letting them have their little corner.

Also many counter protests have turned violent. Initiated by the counter protestors. Thats what im against.
Gotta go.

 

[Phatguysrule]

go back to the beginning of the thread….

And why does someone need to advocate something for a statement to be said?
I simply clarified my thoughts/opinions.
you then countered that by agreeing with what i said, while saying i was wrong.

And this is your response?
Why is this even a point of contention?…

if you wanna argue, at least pick something of importance….
better yet, wife is waking up and im hungry.
Enjoy.

Because you arguing against something that nobody proposed changes the conversation in what is called a straw man argument.

It's frequently how people support an indefensible stance without actually addressing why.

 

[crandc]

Very fine people, right?