Politics White Nationalist Rally turns to violence and terrorism

[Minstrel]

I don't understand. It really means that much to you guys if an elected republican or democrat specifically denounces this kind of stuff? why? why do you care about these people when they are professional liars? why to make you feel good do you need people you never met to denounce something? it's confusing. Shouldn't it go without being said that a majority of people do denounce this behavior? you would have to be a real idiot to think that behavior is okay

It's a big deal because silence from people with influence helps normalize behavior. The less something is perceived as a social disease, the more likely people who have some tendency in that direction to start acting on it. No one politician saying something makes a difference, but the more that do, the more entrenched it becomes and more difficult it becomes for people to believe that it's within the scope of acceptable behavior. It's not a question of whether "a majority" of people feel its wrong--it's a question of whether 5% think it's okay versus 6%. Bad social strains build or are weakened incrementally.

 

[Further]

I don't understand. It really means that much to you guys if an elected republican or democrat specifically denounces this kind of stuff? why? why do you care about these people when they are professional liars? why to make you feel good do you need people you never met to denounce something? it's confusing. Shouldn't it go without being said that a majority of people do denounce this behavior? you would have to be a real idiot to think that behavior is okay

because I have doubt that the white nationalist group as small as you seem to think. I see how Trump has courted them and how it has paid off in his support. It worries me, so seeing other Republicans denounce White Supremacy means that they don't have the foothold that I fear they are trying to obtain.

 

[Further]

It's a big deal because silence from people with influence helps normalize behavior. The less something is perceived as a social disease, the more likely people who have some tendency in that direction to start acting on it. No one politician saying something makes a difference, but the more that do, the more entrenched it becomes and more difficult it becomes for people to believe that it's within the scope of acceptable behavior. It's not a question of whether "a majority" of people feel its wrong--it's a question of whether 5% think it's okay versus 6%. Bad social strains build or are weakened incrementally.

Very well stated. I agree completely.

 

[Cippy91]

It's a big deal because silence from people with influence helps normalize behavior. The less something is perceived as a social disease, the more likely people who have some tendency in that direction to start acting on it. No one politician saying something makes a difference, but the more that do, the more entrenched it becomes and more difficult it becomes for people to believe that it's within the scope of acceptable behavior. It's not a question of whether "a majority" of people feel its wrong--it's a question of whether 5% think it's okay versus 6%. Bad social strains build or are weakened incrementally.

Here is my argument to this. You can't change everybody. You can't convert that 5 percent. Some people just have outrageous views no matter what you do. On this logic are Christians bad because they try and convert others to their religion? mormons? etc. I think the take away should be that a huge majority agree that this small group of people in the US are wrong and people recognize it as terrible behavior. If anybody thinks that is normal behavior then they are completely retarded. I mean go check the news or twitter. Nobody is saying this is okay. If anything people are making too big a deal about it and giving them too much credit

 

[Cippy91]

because I have doubt that the white nationalist group as small as you seem to think. I see how Trump has courted them and how it has paid off in his support. It worries me, so seeing other Republicans denounce White Supremacy means that they don't have the foothold that I fear they are trying to obtain.

I think they are a small group. I mean how often do we really see something of this caliber? people act like we see it all the time. Not really. I don't support trump, but come on the guy didn't "court" them. This dude was a liberal through out his life and one day decided to run for president because he has a huge ego and just wants everybody to like him. Whats important is that he did actually say something and did denounce it. Sure he didn't specifically say white supremacy but he denounced it. I mean I just don't know what people in this country want. It's always never enough, the fake outrage and getting sensitive over everything, it doesn't stop.

 

[Cippy91]

Wow guys Seattle is looking really great right now!! fight that hate!!!

This is just so predictable. People try to fight hate with hate, when will people learn?

 

[Cippy91]

Now we have the "rallies against hate" in which now we can watch the alt left make zero sense. Look at all the antifa! how great!


so now we have the alt right idiots do their rally. Then in response the alt left comes out and gets shit going then plays victim. Wow, great country

 

[Minstrel]

Here is my argument to this. You can't change everybody. You can't convert that 5 percent. Some people just have outrageous views no matter what you do.

Yeah, I don't think that's a good argument. First of all, you can reduce things to nearly 0%, even if you can't necessarily hit literally 0%. Second of all, even for people who never change their views, there's a lot of utility in ensuring that they don't feel emboldened to act on their views. Third of all, you can also prevent a belief from growing. Finally, the more people are willing to actively speak out against something, the more the Overton window moves. As it becomes more and more absurd to be a part of or support white supremacy, other race-related practices, like racial profiling, race-based gerrymandering, etc, will start to become less acceptable. It's not just about this one thing--everything is connected. You can't go from "racist society" to "100% non-racist society" in one step, it takes thousands of steps. One of those steps is loud denouncing of white supremacy by those in power on both sides of the aisle.

 

[Cippy91]

Yeah, I don't think that's a good argument. First of all, you can reduce things to nearly 0%, even if you can't necessarily hit literally 0%. Second of all, even for people who never change their views, there's a lot of utility in ensuring that they don't feel emboldened to act on their views. Third of all, you can also prevent a belief from growing. Finally, the more people are willing to actively speak out against something, the more the Overton window moves. As it becomes more and more absurd to be a part of or support white supremacy, other race-related practices, like racial profiling, race-based gerrymandering, etc, will start to become less acceptable. It's not just about this one thing--everything is connected. You can't go from "racist society" to "100% non-racist society" in one step, it takes thousands of steps. One of those steps is loud denouncing of white supremacy by those in power on both sides of the aisle.

Can reduce things to nearly 0 percent. Okay, well that's not true. Go do that with religion or extremists in the middle east. Or even these racists we are seeing. If you think you can reduce these things to nearly 0 percent you are just being delusional about it. You are trying to live in a near perfect world and it isn't possible. There will always be these kinds of people and there is nothing you can do about it. Trying to make everybody believe what you believe or the majority is pointless because it wont work. If you think people of power can just come out and denounce something and that changes everything, you are wrong. EVERY protest we see people always trying to shove an ideology down others throats and guess what? doesn't work. Actually just ends up producing more hate because Antifa comes out and creates violence which in result makes the other side violent. Mostly everybody doesn't give a shit about these racists, people are posting their info online and they are losing their jobs, that in itself should show you that it's not okay on a majority level. So you didn't tell me why that was a bad argument at all, but you did say something outrageous in saying that you can reduce things to nearly 0 percent.

 

[Minstrel]

Can reduce things to nearly 0 percent. Okay, well that's not true. Go do that with religion or extremists in the middle east.

How many people believe in virgin sacrifice in the US? I never said you can reduce anything to nearly 0%. There are plenty of things you can. And why should we believe that we've reduced the amount of white supremacy as far as possible? Just because you say so?

 

[Cippy91]

How many people believe in virgin sacrifice in the US? I never said you can reduce anything to nearly 0%. There are plenty of things you can. And why should we believe that we've reduced the amount of white supremacy as far as possible? Just because you say so?

No not because I say so, because I am realistic and it's a logical thing to think not just some hope and dream. Yeah dude in my perfect world, there would be no racists and people would stop focusing on color and rather the contents of the person. Shit I would end homelessness. In my perfect world there would be no poverty, no war.

Guess what? you can't stop these things.

 

[Cippy91]

And some of the same people you want to denounce things, are the same people who are for war, who do crooked shit behind closed doors, these are the people you give a shit about. Crazy

 

[Minstrel]

No not because I say so, because I am realistic and it's a logical thing to think

It's not a logical thing to think that we've reduced it as much as possible. We have no idea what the "best realistic case" looks like, so we have no way to know how close we are to it. I'm sure 1960s Clippy was also saying, "Dude, we've already reduced racism as far as it's going to go--I'm just being realistic. It's only logical to think we can't reduce the level of racism further because, like, nothing can go to zero, you dig?"

 

[H.C.]

Such a negativity takes so much work and effort to maintain.

 

[Cippy91]

It's not a logical thing to think that we've reduced it as much as possible. We have no idea what the "best realistic case" looks like, so we have no way to know how close we are to it. I'm sure 1960s Clippy was also saying, "Dude, we've already reduced racism as far as it's going to go--I'm just being realistic. It's only logical to think we can't reduce the level of racism further because, like, nothing can go to zero, you dig?"

You can't even make that comparison. Many white people back then stood with MLK, many were against it. Which is why it changed over time. I mean yeah I hope this small group of racists go away too but you can't change everybody, stop trying to actually. We have enough of that in society right now. People wanna make me believe a hajib is liberating or they wanna make me believe gender is a social construct, etc. It's cool to be progressive to an extent but as soon as you start getting silly with it, I am out.

 

[Minstrel]

You can't even make that comparison. Many white people back then stood with MLK, many were against it. Which is why it changed over time.

The point was not that there is as much racism now as then. The point is, we have no idea where the "low" in racism is. There were surely people in the 1960s who said, "Look at all the progress made since the 1800s--this is probably as good as it'll get, you can't convert everyone." You keep fighting something that's wrong and you let it hit its low where it's going to be, not where people who don't really care one way or the other claim it is. Perhaps you believe in 50 years, things will look identical from a racism perspective--I certainly don't.

 

[Cippy91]

The point was not that there is as much racism now as then. The point is, we have no idea where the "low" in racism is. There were surely people in the 1960s who said, "Look at all the progress made since the 1800s--this is probably as good as it'll get, you can't convert everyone." You keep fighting something that's wrong and you let it hit its low where it's going to be, not where people who don't really care one way or the other claim it is. Perhaps you believe in 50 years, things will look identical from a racism perspective--I certainly don't.

I am not sitting here saying I wouldn't want that either. I mean yeah sounds great I agree with you there

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[MarAzul]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/31/my-party-is-in-denial-about-donald-trump-215442

That article doesn't even seem relevant with your statement; "He stands for so many things that conservatives traditionally don't.".

 

[Cippy91]

so deep bro

 

[Denny Crane]

Intimidate OR coerce.

Sure seems like it was striking a blow for white nationalism against an ideological foe for political purposes and I'm guessing it was fairly intimidating, no?

EDIT: I'm referring to the driver of the car, not the movement writ large.

I would agree if there was some sort of planning, especially with some organized white supremacist group.

The sight of these awful people, many armed and dressed like soldiers, was certainly intimidating. Lots of things are intimidating but aren't terrorism.

At face value, these people were protesting the removal of the statue and nothing more.

 

[Denny Crane]

protesting the removal of the statue while chanting ....gas the jews....just another peaceful rally eh?

As ugly as it is, they are entitled to free speech. It's hateful and hurtful. I didn't say it was a peaceful rally - both sides that went there were spoiling for, or willing to, fight.

From the videos, both sides were throwing punches and worse.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

so deep bro

 

[Minstrel]

Trust our resident "a pox on both their houses, I'm an independent" libertarian to bring out the "both sides were wrong, the neo Nazis and the people protesting the neo Nazis" guns.

 

[Cippy91]

 

[Cippy91]

Holy fuck the silly string really showed these cops whats up, god damn I would be shook

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Holy fuck the silly string really showed these cops whats up, god damn I would be shook

Not a progressive but let me show them how it's done.

Damn you horrible people for silly stringing the police. Shame... shame on you!

Watch, I'll be the only one brave enough to say this.

 

[Minstrel]

Not a progressive but let me show them how it's done.

Damn you horrible people for silly stringing the police. Shame... shame on you!

Watch, I'll be the only one brave enough to say this.

It's regrettable, but it's not terrorism. What were they trying to coerce?

 

[Nikolokolus]

I would agree if there was some sort of planning, especially with some organized white supremacist group.

The sight of these awful people, many armed and dressed like soldiers, was certainly intimidating. Lots of things are intimidating but aren't terrorism.

At face value, these people were protesting the removal of the statue and nothing more.

The driver committed a politically motivated act of murder. How hard is this to grasp?

 

[SlyPokerDog]