Who was Jesus?

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If the bible is the word of god, who are all these blasphemers that think they can improve upon it? God has been around for what, eternity right? And his word already needs a more modern take? He's been working on his manuscript for infinite forevers, and then some weirdo yahoo swings in and "interprets" it for him???

Unbelievable, I'd send that dude to hell for sure, the stones on these assholes
 
genuine belief is compelled by evidence. it is not a decision.

So you get to decide "genuine belief" by your terms? It should be said "I believe this is the evidence that pursued me"

What you believe is evidence can be very different than what pursueds another.

Example: one could say they love a woman because of these factors. Another sees those factors and disagrees they are measurements or evidence of that love. But the other can't know for sure that the person truly loves, therefor; they are just using their perception.

You are just using your own perception and blanket all other beliefs to that perception.
 
Maybe, but I don't think that's necessarily considered an established fact even among secular scholars, and I'm wary of giving apologists ammunition by claiming it is. The main reference is certainly dubious.

It was pretty much universally known as a forgery by scholars since the 1800s. It wasn't until the fairly recently that the idea that it was a mixture has bubbled up to the surface. But this camp is comprised mostly of christian apologists and theologians. The Josephus forgery has been well dismantled.

Arguing whether something is an "established fact" is a distraction since none of this isn't really falsifiable, all you can do is look at the evidence at hand. Here's a snippet from a 19th century book, Christian Mythology Unvieled, that outlines the argument:

"Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the 'Christian Ajax,' even Lardner himself, against it are these: 'It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)
 
So you get to decide "genuine belief" by your terms? It should be said "I believe this is the evidence that pursued me"

What you believe is evidence can be very different than what pursueds another.

Example: one could say they love a woman because of these factors. Another sees those factors and disagrees they are measurements or evidence of that love. But the other can't know for sure that the person truly loves, therefor; they are just using their perception.

You are just using your own perception and blanket all other beliefs to that perception.


I was just responding to the statement that I am choosing not to believe. I don't have a choice.

love as you are using is too vague to be objectively evidence-based. if you define exactly what you mean by the term it is measurable.
 
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I was just responding to the statement that I am choosing not to believe.

love as you are using is too vague to be objectively evidence-based. if you define exactly what you mean by the term it is measurable.

How about war? How about foreign policies? Maybe we can discuss capital punishment? All of which has many in disagreement.
 
It was pretty much universally known as a forgery by scholars since the 1800s. It wasn't until the fairly recently that the idea that it was a mixture has bubbled up to the surface. But this camp is comprised mostly of christian apologists and theologians. The Josephus forgery has been well dismantled.

Arguing whether something is an "established fact" is a distraction since none of this isn't really falsifiable, all you can do is look at the evidence at hand. Here's a snippet from a 19th century book, Christian Mythology Unvieled, that outlines the argument:

"Mattathias, the father of Josephus, must have been a witness to the miracles which are said to have been performed by Jesus, and Josephus was born within two years after the crucifixion, yet in all the works he says nothing whatever about the life or death of Jesus Christ; as for the interpolated passage it is now universally acknowledged to be a forgery. The arguments of the 'Christian Ajax,' even Lardner himself, against it are these: 'It was never quoted by any of our Christian ancestors before Eusebius. It disturbs the narrative. The language is quite Christian. It is not quoted by Chrysostom, though he often refers to Josephus, and could not have omitted quoting it had it been then in the text. It is not quoted by Photius [9th century], though he has three articles concerning Josephus; and this author expressly states that this historian has not taken the least notice of Christ. Neither Justin Martyr, in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew; nor Clemens Alexandrinus, who made so many extracts from ancient authors; nor Origen against Celsus, have ever mentioned this testimony. But, on the contrary, in chap. 25th of the first book of that work, Origen openly affirms that Josephus, who had mentioned John the Baptist, did not acknowledge Christ. That this passage is a false fabrication is admitted by Ittigius, Blondel, Le Clerc, Vandale, Bishop Warburton, and Tanaquil Faber.'" (CMU, 47)



ok cool. I have seen a few secular scholars argue that it could be a mixture, but not a typical sentiment apparently.
 
How about war? How about foreign policies? Maybe we can discuss capital punishment? All of which has many in disagreement.


we were talking about belief in a claim about objective reality (jesus is god etc.), not subjective moral issues.
 
The whole love argument is weird, love is just science is it not?
 
Love is just a word, but sure, I believe in all of the emotions

So you would say an emotion doesn't need much proof to exist. You just know they exist because you have personally felt it right?

I mean you didn't need science or some teacher to explain what emotions are right?
 
I'm agnostic on all 3 things. What's your point?

No you are just agnostic. Atheism is just a faith

And you just proved it is. You don't require the evidence to believe that a first self replicating molecule existed or in singularity
 
So you would say an emotion doesn't need much proof to exist. You just know they exist because you have personally felt it right?

I mean you didn't need science or some teacher to explain what emotions are right?

chemistry and neuroscience do explain them. But no I don't need them to
 
chemistry and neuroscience do explain them. But no I don't need them to

And maybe chemistry and neuroscience explains man seeking God too. And maybe, just maybe nobody needs to explain either. They are extinctive.
 
I think if god exists that would be great, don't know though, how could I?

Fwiw, I think you have it right mags, faith can be a powerful thing for good and bad, but it seems it helps you be a better person

Its the self righteous bible literalism omniphobes who really grind my gears

Because there is no way of knowing for sure, that's why its called faith :cheers:
 
I used to think religion was a good thing because at the very least it would crate a good moral standard by which to live by. Now with all the religious fanatics and wars in god's name, the balance for me has tipped and I think religion is negative in our world.

As far as if god/jesus exists, in my humble opinion, I think humans desire for immortality has created the idea of god and the after life. I could be wrong, but just another opinion for the board.
 
I think if god exists that would be great, don't know though, how could I?

Fwiw, I think you have it right mags, faith can be a powerful thing for good and bad, but it seems it helps you be a better person

Its the self righteous bible literalism omniphobes who really grind my gears

Because there is no way of knowing for sure, that's why its called faith :cheers:

Thanks man and I agree. That's why I don't agree with religion. I can read things that people post; especially in Leviticus and see where people are coming from.

I also see all those righteous; I'm better than you; holy rollers that are quick to judge others. That burns my gears too. I also see the right wing liberal wannabe atheists that look at religion as some archaic philosophy; which also grinds my gears.

I have said it a thousand times. There is evil on both sides.
 
I used to think religion was a good thing because at the very least it would crate a good moral standard by which to live by. Now with all the religious fanatics and wars in god's name, the balance for me has tipped and I think religion is negative in our world.

As far as if god/jesus exists, in my humble opinion, I think humans desire for immortality has created the idea of god and the after life. I could be wrong, but just another opinion for the board.

Religion isn't a good thing. IMO. I think true Christianity is a good thing. It isn't about structure, but of grace. Grace is the key word. You should look it up and I think you would understand what I mean.

I actually love the ideas of Buddhism; which really doesn't believe in a God. They have bits and pieces of ideology that I can really agree on. Many times; understanding that you are only in control of yourself, your destiny is a good way at looking at things. Doing good for others; which rewards your inner spirit is also a good thing.
 
No you are just agnostic. Atheism is just a faith

And you just proved it is. You don't require the evidence to believe that a first self replicating molecule existed or in singularity


I don't believe in those things. I don't pretend to know how life or the universe started. You must be thinking of someone else.
 
Religion isn't a good thing. IMO. I think true Christianity is a good thing. It isn't about structure, but of grace. Grace is the key word. You should look it up and I think you would understand what I mean.


there's like 11 different definitions of grace
 
there's like 11 different definitions of grace

The other (so-called) 10 widely pale in comparison to God's Grace through His Son, Jesus Christ, though.

Literally, all of Christianity stems from that act of Love towards humanity.
 
The other (so-called) 10 widely pale in comparison to God's Grace through His Son, Jesus Christ, though.

Literally, all of Christianity stems from that act of Love towards humanity.

Thank you, I'd also like to point out it takes a bit of grace to be able to walk on water.
 
You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.
 
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You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) and believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.

Well said, Marazul!
 
You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.

Awesome!!!! Love it!
 
You all confuse me with your hard line, whether you (are of simply mind) believe in Jesus, or you reject (logical mind needing evidence) Jesus and scoff at those that don't.

The philosophy of Christianity (taken from the teachings of Christ) is followed by many churches each of which teach and follow their specific brand of religion. But the philosophy is also accepted by the vast majority of our countryman even those that do not belong to any church. This nation was founded within the principles of the Christian philosophy even though the Constitution prohibits the promotion of any specific Religion as practiced by anyone church..

If you embrace the philosophy of Christianity and most of us do knowingly or not, does it matter whether you firmly believe in physical existents of the man Jesus? The philosphy based on the teachings of Jesus are with us
everyday and that cannot be refuted by any of the self appointed nonbelievers.

If Jesus wasn't a real guy then this philosophy you speak of did not come from him. That's why that matters.

And I certainly do not embrace the philosophy of Christianity any more than I do of Harry Potter.

And I actually take more from Superman.
 

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