Who was Jesus?

[Further]

Your question about the impact of earlier pagan religions on the validity of Jesus is an interesting one. I'll admit that I haven't studied this issue. I do know that it has been raised by those seeking to discredit Jesus as nothing more than a knockoff of those earlier pagan religions. I suspect that they overstate their case, but let's assume that they're correct and that most of the stories about Jesus's miracles have similar elements to things found in stories of pagan gods. Jesus, living in the time he did, would certainly have knowledge of the pagan religions of his day. It seems likely to me that he might choose to do similar miracles for the purpose of showing that he actually was God living in human form. Your pagan god is said to have walked on water? Here's how it's actually done.

That's actually a pretty good answer, it allows for your faith and facts to coexist. Not my bag of tea, but I get it.

A separate question since we are somehow able to discuss instead of argue, Do you ever contemplate why atheists don't believe, I mean try and put yourself in our frame of mind? really try and understand what not believing without evidence is all about. I know I try and see the issues from a believers viewpoint. That doesn't mean I succeed, but I do attempt to understand the underpinnings of why theists view the world as they do. Especially more devout theists, it's very interesting to me how someone can walk that line.

 

[magnifier661]

That's actually a pretty good answer, it allows for your faith and facts to coexist. Not my bag of tea, but I get it.

A separate question since we are somehow able to discuss instead of argue, Do you ever contemplate why atheists don't believe, I mean try and put yourself in our frame of mind? really try and understand what not believing without evidence is all about. I know I try and see the issues from a believers viewpoint. That doesn't mean I succeed, but I do attempt to understand the underpinnings of why theists view the world as they do. Especially more devout theists, it's very interesting to me how someone can walk that line.

I know the question is directed towards e_blazer; but I was once a big time agnostic from 12-16; since I don't believe atheism actually a sound ideology. I would make jokes to my dad about how stupid believing in God was, etc. I believe I have a good framework in the mindset of those that want proof. The funny thing is how the proof presented itself to me.

Okay so here is my turn around; in case you wanted to read it...
It wasn't by force, but by love. The more I would try and piss those off, they would shower me with more love. I was getting confused and finally made the leap to go to church to see what the fuss was about. I was gothic back then and I always came to church dressed all in black, wearing make-up and painted nails. My hair was sticking straight up like Robert Smith, from the cure. I remembered what I felt back then. I wanted to expose the judgmental church and if they asked me to leave, it would give validity on what I was feeling all along.

Instead they welcomed me and always gave me hugs. Said I looked unusual to them, but didn't look anything different in God's eyes. Anyway, I felt a great pushing in my soul and during one invitation, I went forward and accepted Christ. Best decision I made!

 

[e_blazer]

That's actually a pretty good answer, it allows for your faith and facts to coexist. Not my bag of tea, but I get it.

A separate question since we are somehow able to discuss instead of argue, Do you ever contemplate why atheists don't believe, I mean try and put yourself in our frame of mind? really try and understand what not believing without evidence is all about. I know I try and see the issues from a believers viewpoint. That doesn't mean I succeed, but I do attempt to understand the underpinnings of why theists view the world as they do. Especially more devout theists, it's very interesting to me how someone can walk that line.

Given that I started out in my college years having the viewpoint that I was either an atheist or agnostic, yeah, I can certainly relate to your viewpoint. I think my change of view began when I came to accept that there are limits to what is knowable from a scientific standpoint. How could I demand scientific proof of God's role as creator of the universe when I came to the understanding that science can only test what exists within the realm of our physical reality? Where did I see in nature any evidence that something as intricate as life, even in the simplest forms, could generate spontaneously from inanimate materials? At the time when I was having these thoughts, I came into contact with some really wonderful people who shared their faith in Christ with me. To me it resonated as believable and true.

I've read that some biologists have found evidence that some of us have a genetic predisposition towards religious belief. Perhaps that's true. I only know that for me my faith is a basic part of who I am as an individual. It gives me a foundation and a purpose. I don't expect that everyone will agree with the decisions that have led me and others like me to where I am, and I try to be respectful of where they are on their own journey. I think that we can agree that the world would be a much better place if everyone took a similar stance.

 

[crowTrobot]

Where did I see in nature any evidence that something as intricate as life, even in the simplest forms, could generate spontaneously from inanimate materials?

the god you are proposing would have to be way (infinitely?) more complex than the simplest forms of life. in terms of probability how is postulating such a god a simpler, more likely solution to the origin of life than some sort of bootstrap self-organizing mechanism? if you think life on its own is improbable for reasons of complexity, doesn't adding god just add a whole new layer of improbability for the same reasons?

this is something that's obvious to non-believers than theists tend to trivialize.

 

[magnifier661]

the god you are proposing would have to be way (infinitely?) more complex than the simplest forms of life. in terms of probability how is postulating such a god a simpler, more likely solution to the origin of life than some sort of bootstrap self-organizing mechanism? if you think life on its own is improbable for reasons of complexity, doesn't adding god just add a whole new layer of improbability for the same reasons?

this is something that's obvious to non-believers than theists tend to trivialize.

Actually no since one that believes in God would agree that he was already here in all it's complexity. The faith that is the driving force of creation.

When someone with that complexity designs life; it's pretty simple. As simple as a biologist growing bacteria culture because they know how.

 

[crowTrobot]

Actually no since one that believes in God would agree that he was already here in all it's complexity.

yes that's the double standard being used.

 

[magnifier661]

yes that's the double standard being used.

Not even close to a double standard because a theist believes in things existing outside this natural world. The agnostic doesn't because they put their belief on the observable.

 

[e_blazer]

the god you are proposing would have to be way (infinitely?) more complex than the simplest forms of life. in terms of probability how is postulating such a god a simpler, more likely solution to the origin of life than some sort of bootstrap self-organizing mechanism? if you think life on its own is improbable for reasons of complexity, doesn't adding god just add a whole new layer of improbability for the same reasons?

this is something that's obvious to non-believers than theists tend to trivialize.

It's a good question, but one that's totally unanswerable. The Bible says that God is eternal and has always existed. And, yes, it says that he's infinitely more complex than any lifeform that we know. I know you don't like that answer and I understand why. I don't see how atheism or agnosticism have any better answers. All they say is that one can only believe in what can be seen and tested scientifically. When you reach the great untestable barriers of the origins of our universe and life, ultimately you either have to say, okay, there's something greater going on here than I can understand, and I accept it, or, nope, I simply can't believe in something I can't test.

 

[Further]

I know the question is directed towards e_blazer; but I was once a big time agnostic from 12-16; since I don't believe atheism actually a sound ideology. I would make jokes to my dad about how stupid believing in God was, etc. I believe I have a good framework in the mindset of those that want proof. The funny thing is how the proof presented itself to me.

Okay so here is my turn around; in case you wanted to read it...
It wasn't by force, but by love. The more I would try and piss those off, they would shower me with more love. I was getting confused and finally made the leap to go to church to see what the fuss was about. I was gothic back then and I always came to church dressed all in black, wearing make-up and painted nails. My hair was sticking straight up like Robert Smith, from the cure. I remembered what I felt back then. I wanted to expose the judgmental church and if they asked me to leave, it would give validity on what I was feeling all along.

Instead they welcomed me and always gave me hugs. Said I looked unusual to them, but didn't look anything different in God's eyes. Anyway, I felt a great pushing in my soul and during one invitation, I went forward and accepted Christ. Best decision I made!

Given that I started out in my college years having the viewpoint that I was either an atheist or agnostic, yeah, I can certainly relate to your viewpoint. I think my change of view began when I came to accept that there are limits to what is knowable from a scientific standpoint. How could I demand scientific proof of God's role as creator of the universe when I came to the understanding that science can only test what exists within the realm of our physical reality? Where did I see in nature any evidence that something as intricate as life, even in the simplest forms, could generate spontaneously from inanimate materials? At the time when I was having these thoughts, I came into contact with some really wonderful people who shared their faith in Christ with me. To me it resonated as believable and true.

I've read that some biologists have found evidence that some of us have a genetic predisposition towards religious belief. Perhaps that's true. I only know that for me my faith is a basic part of who I am as an individual. It gives me a foundation and a purpose. I don't expect that everyone will agree with the decisions that have led me and others like me to where I am, and I try to be respectful of where they are on their own journey. I think that we can agree that the world would be a much better place if everyone took a similar stance.

My development. I don't think I was ever a believer even though I grew up in a Jewish household and went to synagogue weekly. When I was in Kindergarten (I don't recall this, but my parents do) the class was discussing Jesus and I was singled out as going to hell because I didn't believe. A couple years later, I remember very well, some kids in the neighborhood came to calling me Efry (my name is Eli) because I was going to fry in the afterlife.

I did not believe in any religion, but at least I was loved fully by my family, so I never felt out of place, even though I had a purple afro and other freakish traits like Mags. There is a great picture of my Grandma and me on the beach, happy and laughing when I was a teenager, my hair was 18inches high at the time. It's pretty funny next to an elderly Jew.

But as it turns out, my parents don't really believe to much either. My mom tries, but my Dad just goes through the routine because he loves his heritage and wants to be respectful of all those who came before him. But he has told me he really doesn't believe in god or even care much if there is a god. My mom I don't think truly believes, but she acts as if she does.

The vast majority of those whom I came in contact with growing up who were devout Christians treated me with disdain and were often outright mean. I have a very poor view of devout Christians. It's nice to know, now that I am older, that some Christians are non-judgmental, but in my formation they all seemed to be quite ready and willing to judge.

Up until recently, I never spoke about my beliefs, I just didn't believe and that was that. I am not as well versed as many atheists in the reasons or arguments for and against atheism, I did not read about it, talk about it, or do anything to learn about it. I just personally saw that too much evil was done in the world in the name of some religion, I didn't want to ever be one of "those people". I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, I don't have a need or want for anything to guide those personal ethics.

 

[magnifier661]

That's really unfortunate GOD. I'm sorry your experience with Christianity was of the hell fire and brimstone kind. It really isn't like that. I know those types and despise what they stand for. That isn't Christianity; that's being a Pharisee.

When they meet God; I expect many Christians will be ashamed for misleading people like that.

 

[e_blazer]

My development. I don't think I was ever a believer even though I grew up in a Jewish household and went to synagogue weekly. When I was in Kindergarten (I don't recall this, but my parents do) the class was discussing Jesus and I was singled out as going to hell because I didn't believe. A couple years later, I remember very well, some kids in the neighborhood came to calling me Efry (my name is Eli) because I was going to fry in the afterlife.

I did not believe in any religion, but at least I was loved fully by my family, so I never felt out of place, even though I had a purple afro and other freakish traits like Mags. There is a great picture of my Grandma and me on the beach, happy and laughing when I was a teenager, my hair was 18inches high at the time. It's pretty funny next to an elderly Jew.

But as it turns out, my parents don't really believe to much either. My mom tries, but my Dad just goes through the routine because he loves his heritage and wants to be respectful of all those who came before him. But he has told me he really doesn't believe in god or even care much if there is a god. My mom I don't think truly believes, but she acts as if she does.

The vast majority of those whom I came in contact with growing up who were devout Christians treated me with disdain and were often outright mean. I have a very poor view of devout Christians. It's nice to know, now that I am older, that some Christians are non-judgmental, but in my formation they all seemed to be quite ready and willing to judge.

Up until recently, I never spoke about my beliefs, I just didn't believe and that was that. I am not as well versed as many atheists in the reasons or arguments for and against atheism, I did not read about it, talk about it, or do anything to learn about it. I just personally saw that too much evil was done in the world in the name of some religion, I didn't want to ever be one of "those people". I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, I don't have a need or want for anything to guide those personal ethics.

You know, it truly sucks that you had such a lousy introduction to people who claimed to be Christian. They were flat out wrong in the way they treated you. If you've walked the earth for very many years you know that there's no shortage of jackasses. Unfortunately, there's no denying that Christianity has had more than its share of jackasses of various stripes within our midst. But to blame Christianity for the failings of these people would be akin to blaming soccer for the actions of soccer houligans at World Cup matches. The message of Jesus is one of all-surpassing love. Unfortunately, that's not the message that has been spread by many fundamental Christians.

Eli, I'm glad you started this thread. My name is Rick and I don't know that there's anything I could ever say that would make a dent in the armour of disbelief that you wear. I'd be happy to talk with you about it any time you like. I assume that the purple 'fro is a thing of the past?

 

[Further]

Eli, I'm glad you started this thread. My name is Rick and I don't know that there's anything I could ever say that would make a dent in the armour of disbelief that you wear. I'd be happy to talk with you about it any time you like. I assume that the purple 'fro is a thing of the past?

homo



just kidding


i couldn't help myself. I love homos and no homos and heteros and no heteros and the like. just cracking wise.


I have never been to one of the Blazer board meet ups, but I will go to one sometime, and hope that you are there. Not so much to talk about Jesus, religion or atheism, but just to have a beer (or whatever) and jive a bit. As far as talking about the issues in this thread, I'm cool with that too, but don't think that in anyway shape or form am I interested from a personal belief standpoint, I am very happy with my atheism. I just find the topic interesting, the history interesting, the individuals interesting and the willingness for opposite sides to engage in pleasant discussion fun.

As far as the other Christians being fire and brimstone dickheads, I know very well they don't represent all Christians.

Peace

 

[magnifier661]

homo



just kidding


i couldn't help myself. I love homos and no homos and heteros and no heteros and the like. just cracking wise.


I have never been to one of the Blazer board meet ups, but I will go to one sometime, and hope that you are there. Not so much to talk about Jesus, religion or atheism, but just to have a beer (or whatever) and jive a bit. As far as talking about the issues in this thread, I'm cool with that too, but don't think that in anyway shape or form am I interested from a personal belief standpoint, I am very happy with my atheism. I just find the topic interesting, the history interesting, the individuals interesting and the willingness for opposite sides to engage in pleasant discussion fun.

As far as the other Christians being fire and brimstone dickheads, I know very well they don't represent all Christians.

Peace

As long as you admit there are dicks on the agnostic atheism side as well.

 

[Further]

As long as you admit there are dicks on the agnostic atheism side as well.

Me admitting it should not make any difference to there being dicks on the Christian side.


Of course there are dicks everywhere, dick atheists, dick Jews, dick Christians, dick Disney employees. It could be a matter of perspective, but I see fewer dicks in the atheist realm, but they most certainly exist. Just ask Vanilla Gorilla (JUST KIDDING VG, I think you're one dope dude as well).

EDIT: Also, i called the fire and brimstone ones dickheads, not all Christians.

 

[magnifier661]

Me admitting it should not make any difference to there being dicks on the Christian side.


Of course there are dicks everywhere, dick atheists, dick Jews, dick Christians, dick Disney employees. It could be a matter of perspective, but I see fewer dicks in the atheist realm, but they most certainly exist. Just ask Vanilla Gorilla (JUST KIDDING VG, I think you're one dope dude as well).

EDIT: Also, i called the fire and brimstone ones dickheads, not all Christians.

Thanks for the clarification

 

[e_blazer]

homo



just kidding


i couldn't help myself. I love homos and no homos and heteros and no heteros and the like. just cracking wise.


I have never been to one of the Blazer board meet ups, but I will go to one sometime, and hope that you are there. Not so much to talk about Jesus, religion or atheism, but just to have a beer (or whatever) and jive a bit. As far as talking about the issues in this thread, I'm cool with that too, but don't think that in anyway shape or form am I interested from a personal belief standpoint, I am very happy with my atheism. I just find the topic interesting, the history interesting, the individuals interesting and the willingness for opposite sides to engage in pleasant discussion fun.

As far as the other Christians being fire and brimstone dickheads, I know very well they don't represent all Christians.

Peace

Ha!

Yeah, a beer and some general BS would be fun.

 

[MarAzul]

And just where in the Bible does it say anything like this? As Christopher Hitchens would say, the God of the Bible is more in line with the dictator of North Korea.

Neither the constitution nor articles of confederation had anything to do with christianity or the bible, try reading them sometime. They were purely secular legal documents.

Very Good? Yes the Constitution is a secular Document and as such I think you must agree that it is a significant step in establishing the Government Mr. Jefferson alluded to for protecting the rights endowed upon us by our Creator. See Genesis in the Bible for the creating reference.

But I think you can credit Mr. Jefferson with informing us that our rights come to us as a result of our creation. We need not look to mortal men, panjanders or pandering politician for the things that come from God. This is a prescription for freedom for any man with the wit to grasp it. Our rights come to us naturally from our creator, we employ the politicians to create the Government to secure those rights. Your rights came to you regardless where you are in your belief system under this government that was created to allow men to fully prosper living within the Christian philosophy.

Of Course Caesar's documents are rightfully secular. But the philosophy of the creation of the this nation, the Declaration of Independents was inspired by the need to recognize and support the basic need of men desiring to live free within the Christian Philosophy. Page one of the creation of the nation is supported by page one of the Bible, the Genesis of creation.

I am not sure what Mr Jefferson might have said about this Question, Who was Jesus. I know he was not a religious man, But I am very sure he did not miss the big picture.

 

[Jesus Christ Son of God]

I'm more popular than the Beatles.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

was jesus like half god, and half human from his human mother? or like put into her womb as an in vitro clone of god himself (all god)? i mean jesus was a human, so he must have had dna and fingerprints and stuff, so he cant be all god, but where did he get his dna from then? wonder if he had a blood type? blue eyes? did he get all that stuff from his mom (probably would have had to right?)?

hmm

 

[ABM]

was jesus like half god, and half human from his human mother? or like put into her womb as an in vitro clone of god himself (all god)? i mean jesus was a human, so he must have had dna and fingerprints and stuff, so he cant be all god, but where did he get his dna from then? wonder if he had a blood type? blue eyes? did he get all that stuff from his mom (probably would have had to right?)?

hmm

He got it from the Holy Spirit (God). If He had got it from Joseph's seed, He would have had then inherited a sin nature....which would have entirely defeated the purpose of His coming to Earth.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

so he wasnt human? or was he half human?

 

[ABM]

so he wasnt human? or was he half human?

All man....all God.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

what?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i mean, you said he wasnt a man because then he would have sin right? so he was just sort of placed in marys womb, and not carrying any of her dna or characteristics right? im not trolling i really would like to know

 

[ABM]

i mean, you said he wasnt a man because then he would have sin right? so he was just sort of placed in marys womb, and not carrying any of her dna or characteristics right? im not trolling i really would like to know

That is correct. The seed carries the dna, etc. Born of a woman, conceived by the Holy Spirit.

It's a God thing, dude.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

so he was placed there as a fertilized egg? or the holy spirit fertilized one of marys eggs?

 

[ABM]

so he was placed there as a fertilized egg? or the holy spirit fertilized one of marys eggs?

Dunno.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

something to ponder i guess

seems like if he was half human, that would explain the needing to eat and pee and having blood and whatnot

 

[magnifier661]

was jesus like half god, and half human from his human mother? or like put into her womb as an in vitro clone of god himself (all god)? i mean jesus was a human, so he must have had dna and fingerprints and stuff, so he cant be all god, but where did he get his dna from then? wonder if he had a blood type? blue eyes? did he get all that stuff from his mom (probably would have had to right?)?

hmm

The spirit has no DNA. God is of spirit; and sense Jesus was also man; he was of flesh, but god in spirit.

 

[magnifier661]

so he was placed there as a fertilized egg? or the holy spirit fertilized one of marys eggs?

You are thinking that god is bound by our natural laws. I would assume its pretty easy for someone that had the ability to create a universe would be able to seed a virgin.