Who Was the Better C: Ayton or Clingan

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Who was Better

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UKRAINEFAN said:
The eye test favored Clingan and the stats seem to indicate it's not close. Will be interesting to see how Billups tries to figure this out.....
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We all saw it this season. He started Ayton. But hey, we won 14 more games , so ……
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
The eye test favored Clingan and the stats seem to indicate it's not close. Will be interesting to see how Billups tries to figure this out.....
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I really like Clingan's potential, but he was slightly behind Ayton in PER. In the brief time we saw DA when Deni started going off, he was really good at rolling to the hoop and finishing. That combo is one of Portland's best offensive options.

If Ayton isn't moved this offseason, I'd expect he's the starter next year. Portland isn't winning a title next season, so the year should be about improvement. Starting DA creates much less drama and lets them profile him for a trade that may or may not happen while they still feed DC plenty of minutes in a reserve role and when DA is "injured". If he's not moved, I truly doubt they'll resign him & instead opt to clear cap space with him and several others to become 2026 FA players

STOMP
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
Wait. So Clingan is the better center, but we won 14 more games by starting Ayton? How does that logically work???
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Not sure where you’re getting 14 games? My research can be off though, but

Clingan was 17-20 as a starting center
Clingan was +2.7 as a starter

Ayton was 17-23 as a starter
Ayton was -6.6 as a starter

So our winning% was actually a bit better with Clingan.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Not sure where you’re getting 14 games? My research can be off though, but

Clingan was 17-20 as a starting center
Clingan was +2.7 as a starter

Ayton was 17-23 as a starter
Ayton was -6.6 as a starter

So our winning% was actually a bit better with Clingan.
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I think the 14 games was a reference to the win differential between this season and last, the improvement being pointed to by many as indicating that this team is on the upswing.
 
I'm just not a fan of Ayton at all. I think his style of basketball player is toxic to a team. Far worse than Ant ball hogging. Ayton literally has some of the worst defense I've ever seen from a center and it's pure lack of effort. On offense he basically tries to shoot inefficient jumpers like LMA but has none of the shooting skill.

Ayton stats are fine, but it's similar to Hassan Whiteside. He got ran out of Phoenix, has multiple NBA players that want nothing to do with him.

I'd prefer he has nothing to do with our rotation next year. I'd rather see Duop Reath or Jabari Walker get those minutes, and I've been in favor of cutting Jabari Walker.

Ayton max contract makes it very unlikely to cut him at least until February. He's just a complete waste of space for an NBA center.

I want Grant gone since his contract runs until 2028 - but on the court I want Ayton not playing far more than any player. It's wasn't a coincidence the Blazers defensive stats and wins took a massive leap when Ayton stopped playing.
 
Ayton vs Clingan is a joke. One was way more effective as a rookie and 7 years younger. Next year it'll be an even bigger gap.

I'd honestly much rather have Nurk playing on the floor next year than Ayton, not that I'm hoping to bring Nurk back.
 
STOMP said:
I really like Clingan's potential, but he was slightly behind Ayton in PER. In the brief time we saw DA when Deni started going off, he was really good at rolling to the hoop and finishing. That combo is one of Portland's best offensive options.

If Ayton isn't moved this offseason, I'd expect he's the starter next year. Portland isn't winning a title next season, so the year should be about improvement. Starting DA creates much less drama and lets them profile him for a trade that may or may not happen while they still feed DC plenty of minutes in a reserve role and when DA is "injured". If he's not moved, I truly doubt they'll resign him & instead opt to clear cap space with him and several others to become 2026 FA players

STOMP
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I guess I am a fan of advanced stats.
 
I'll take Clingan but I'm also not entirely out on Ayton. I think when you set a culture, players are more willing to buy in. If you get rid of Ant and Grant, I think Ayton will mold more to the Deni/Tou culture that is setting in. I'd like to see Ayton with a full season with the young core with Scoot starting at the point. If he flourishes, I know everyone will say it's because he's in a contract year.
 
SharpesTriumph said:
Ayton vs Clingan is a joke. One was way more effective as a rookie and 7 years younger. Next year it'll be an even bigger gap.

I'd honestly much rather have Nurk playing on the floor next year than Ayton, not that I'm hoping to bring Nurk back.
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If I was to make my own subjective a list of priorities for a modern NBA C, it would look something like:

Rim Protection (Clingan)
Paint Defense (Clingan)
Focus & Intensity (Clingan)
Rebounding (Clingan)
Upside (Clingan)
Switch-ability on defense (Draw)
Offensive Rebounding (Clingan)
Salary & Contract (Clingan)
Post Passing (Draw)
Strong Hands in Traffic (Ayton)
Shooting % at Rim (Ayton)
3 point Shooting (Clingan)
Mid Range Shooting (Ayton)

I know other people will want to rearrange those priorities; maybe add some. But in my view this really isn't close
 
wizenheimer said:
If I was to make my own subjective a list of priorities for a modern NBA C, it would look something like:

Rim Protection (Clingan)
Paint Defense (Clingan)
Focus & Intensity (Clingan)
Rebounding (Clingan)
Upside (Clingan)
Switch-ability on defense (Draw)
Offensive Rebounding (Clingan)
Salary & Contract (Clingan)
Post Passing (Draw)
Strong Hands in Traffic (Ayton)
Shooting % at Rim (Ayton)
3 point Shooting (Clingan)
Mid Range Shooting (Ayton)

I know other people will want to rearrange those priorities; maybe add some. But in my view this really isn't close
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I'd probably give Ayton the slight edge on switch-ability - he's actually decent here for being such a tall big. But Ayton mid range shooting is a liability as he jacks up so many of those inefficient shots. Maybe that should be a shot selection attribute which Clingan would be superior in. So yes to your overall point that about 80% of the attributes you want from a center have Clingan as clearly superior.

The main justification I read for starting Ayton over Clingan is just because Clingan would accept being benched while Ayton would pout. If they were identical performers on the court but Clingan was in his 8th season and Ayton in his 2nd it would be set in stone that Clingan is the starter.

It will be stupid if the Blazers start an inferior Ayton just to appease him at the cost of wins, cost at building a better long term center, and cost of players earning their minutes.
 
I pray Jerami is gone and we can make it work filling in his minutes with more Deni/DA/DC.

Toumani and Deni are so versatile you can start to plug and play these guys around each other and experience net positives.

I personally trust DA to keep him around, I think him plus DC is a killer center duo that can make it far.

Keep in mind ayton was still part of a 64 win group. He has the acumen to be a part of a winning team that wins playoff games. I say invest in that a bit.

I think they split this 50/50 this year, for all of Donovan’s struggles and conditioning issues - DA was a bit more consistent
 
DA and Deni seem to have a real connection (Maybe it is a DA to DA connection). I would not be too upset if we get to see this a bit more, but DC is obviously a part of the future and DA is a maybe...
 
STOMP said:
I really like Clingan's potential, but he was slightly behind Ayton in PER. In the brief time we saw DA when Deni started going off, he was really good at rolling to the hoop and finishing. That combo is one of Portland's best offensive options.

If Ayton isn't moved this offseason, I'd expect he's the starter next year. Portland isn't winning a title next season, so the year should be about improvement. Starting DA creates much less drama and lets them profile him for a trade that may or may not happen while they still feed DC plenty of minutes in a reserve role and when DA is "injured". If he's not moved, I truly doubt they'll resign him & instead opt to clear cap space with him and several others to become 2026 FA players

STOMP
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If Ayton is the starter the Conductor needs to be fired after the first preseason game
 
Foxx said:
I pray Jerami is gone and we can make it work filling in his minutes with more Deni/DA/DC.

Toumani and Deni are so versatile you can start to plug and play these guys around each other and experience net positives.

I personally trust DA to keep him around, I think him plus DC is a killer center duo that can make it far.

Keep in mind ayton was still part of a 64 win group. He has the acumen to be a part of a winning team that wins playoff games. I say invest in that a bit.

I think they split this 50/50 this year, for all of Donovan’s struggles and conditioning issues - DA was a bit more consistent
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A bit more consistently bad
 
Mediocre Man said:
Not sure where you’re getting 14 games? My research can be off though, but

Clingan was 17-20 as a starting center
Clingan was +2.7 as a starter

Ayton was 17-23 as a starter
Ayton was -6.6 as a starter

So our winning% was actually a bit better with Clingan.
Click to expand...

From your post? We won 14 more games???
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
The eye test favored Clingan and the stats seem to indicate it's not close. Will be interesting to see how Billups tries to figure this out.....
Click to expand...

Mediocre Man said:
We all saw it this season. He started Ayton. But hey, we won 14 more games , so ……
Click to expand...

SharpeScooterShooter said:
Wait. So Clingan is the better center, but we won 14 more games by starting Ayton? How does that logically work???
Click to expand...

Mediocre Man said:
Not sure where you’re getting 14 games? My research can be off though, but

Clingan was 17-20 as a starting center
Clingan was +2.7 as a starter

Ayton was 17-23 as a starter
Ayton was -6.6 as a starter

So our winning% was actually a bit better with Clingan.
Click to expand...

Mediocre Man said:
Which had nothing to do with Mr -6.6 as a starter
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@Mediocre Man
You didn't bring up the -6.6 until AFTER the 14 game comment. You lost me lol....

What is the 14 game referencing then?
 
SharpeScooterShooter said:
@Mediocre Man
You didn't bring up the -6.6 until AFTER the 14 game comment. You lost me lol....

What is the 14 game referencing then?
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It was a sarcastic comment about our coaches ability to determine who should be on the floor. I was responding to Ukrainefan’s comment about the eye test. Clingan CLEARLY better, but our fucktard coach still ran Ayton out there. But hey, we won 14 more games…..which had nothing to do with Ayton, and little to do with the Conductor
 
I am legitimately shocked that Ayton has any votes, much less as many as he does. Especially after seeing +\- and record as starter. Of course Ayton’s PER is higher, Clingan can’t make a fucking layup, but he’s still a better overall player
 
Mediocre Man said:
If Ayton is the starter the Conductor needs to be fired after the first preseason game
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I sure am looking forward to you continuing to be continually outraged... that act never ever grows stale

STOMP
 
UKRAINEFAN said:
I guess I am a fan of advanced stats.
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PER is an advanced stat too. I pointed to it as a counter to your contention that this season was a statistical blowout in DC's favor.

Again, I like Clingan. I wanted them to draft him and he exceeded my expectations this year. If they move Ayton this offseason I won't be shedding any tears, but if they keep him I think it will be best for the team that he remains a starter for the reasons I stated prior. I am absolutely sure that Donavan will get plenty of run next year regardless of whether he's the starter as he's the future.

STOMP
 
STOMP said:
I sure am looking forward to you continuing to be continually outraged... that act never ever grows stale

STOMP
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I get it. Truly I do. I feel for everyone that doesn’t have me on ignore because I can be a broken record. BUT, when this franchise CONTINUALLY rewards average. When every single person watching without Rose Garden colored glasses can see it’s asinine to trot out Ayton and Grant in the starting line up, maybe our coach could see that also?
 
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STOMP said:
PER is an advanced stat too. I pointed to it as a counter to your contention that this season was a statistical blowout in DC's favor.

Again, I like Clingan. I wanted them to draft him and he exceeded my expectations this year. If they move Ayton this offseason I won't be shedding any tears, but if they keep him I think it will be best for the team that he remains a starter for the reasons I stated prior. I am absolutely sure that Donavan will get plenty of run next year regardless of whether he's the starter as he's the future.

STOMP
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Even though we lose 6.6 points when he starts?

Id rather have a team of 10 PER guys that were all + in the +\- stat than a team of 20 PER guys that were -

Legit asking….does that make sense?
 
Mediocre Man said:
I get it. Truly I do. I feel for everyone that doesn’t have me on ignore because I can be a broken record. BUT, when this franchise CONTINUALLY rewards average. When every single person watching without Rose Garden colored glasses can see it’s asinine to trot out Ayton and Grant in the starting line up, maybe our coaches could see that also?
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Did the pizza guy tell you that it's definitely the coach's call? I mean with that revelation from Joe's presser with the coach, they have to both hear what Bert wants every week.

So what I'm asking is do you think Chauncey has the autonomy to make those bad decisions? Could he have been told not to sit those guys to preserve their trade value? Just wondering if you have more insight than some of the rest of us because to me the only thing that makes sense is that he was told not to sit Jerami, Deandre or Ant.
 
blazerkor said:
Did the pizza guy tell you that it's definitely the coach's call? I mean with that revelation from Joe's presser with the coach, they have to both hear what Bert wants every week.

So what I'm asking is do you think Chauncey has the autonomy to make those bad decisions? Could he have been told not to sit those guys to preserve their trade value? Just wondering if you have more insight than some of the rest of us because to me the only thing that makes sense is that he was told not to sit Jerami, Deandre or Ant.
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Chauncey set the lineup.

The one thing I know is neither Joe nor Chauncey was grantees to come back next season. Chauncey’s job was to win games. Chauncey played and started who he thought gave him the best chance to win
 
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