Why can't we solve Dame traps

[wizenheimer]

I'm starting to think that Dame himself, his style of play, is the problem.

with Dame, and his style of play, the Blazers would likely have a top-10 pick this year

they sure as shit wouldn't have played in the bubble

 

[blazerkor]

I'm starting to think that Dame himself, his style of play, is the problem.

You and Skip Bayless. Thanks for making what I consider to be the dumbest post I've seen in this forum all season. Dame is coachable and if he were given a way to get rid of the ball earlier or be effective off the ball (oh and we've seen him do both of those things and the team have some limited success with them) then Dame would do it. Dame has been getting blitzed and boxed in all season but he's still had a historic season and is the reason we got into the playoffs. Does Dame demand to be the man all of the time and demand to dominate the ball? No, he gets the ball to Nurk when he can to facilitate and he is constantly inbounding to or telling teammates to have CJ bring the ball up and instigate the offense... in my opinion a little too much. If you're going to point to his record in the playoffs please do. His stats are incredibly similar, a little lower and we're talking about less than a whole point, assist, rebound, turnover, or steal and we are talking about less than two percentage points in both overall field goals and three-pointers. Advanced stats don't tell you a lot because they are incredibly different for all players in the playoffs. You can say that it's Dame's fault or that it makes sense because the level of competition goes up. You can also make the case that a point guard above any other position, especially one of Dame's size could benefit more from personnel around him. Basically every expert and almost every fan that pays attention and thinks is going to tell you that you're wrong about this being the fault of Dame or his style of play and they are going to talk about the teams around Dame and the ways in which coaching has utilized Dame. I know this isn't where you were going but if anything I think Dame could be a little more selfish and more ball dominant, shoot through slumps instead of looking to his teammates and be a little, not a lot, more of the superstar that his outstanding leadership and character make him not want to be but I don't know if I'm right or if he could even be like that. In summation, I don't think you could be more wrong.

 

[wizenheimer]

Portland is not going to be able to scheme their way out of this. Changing role players solves nothing. Trying to cheap-screw lower rotation solutions like Turner and Hezonja is pointless.

this is all about talent and Portland only has one elite player. That's not enough

the Pelicans swept Portland when CJ & Nurkic were healthy. Sorry, but this is a problem with the core pieces

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I remember when Chip Kelly was at the UofO and he would hold up picture signs to call plays.

We should get Stotts a sign like this.

#ProblemSolved

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I remember when Chip Kelly was at the UofO and he would hold up picture signs to call plays.

We should get Stotts a sign like this.

#ProblemSolved

 

[wizenheimer]

the irony is this thread and question could have been posted during:

the Memphis series in 2015

and during the warrior series in 2016

and during the Warrior series in 2017

and during the Pelicans' series in 2018

and during the Warrior series in 2019

and now it's the Laker series in 2020

Blazers are now 3-21 in those series, and 2-21 against that trapping defense, and unless they find an answer, it could be 2-24

maybe it's the wrong question

 

[blazerkor]

Portland is not going to be able to scheme their way out of this. Changing role players solves nothing. Trying to cheap-screw lower rotation solutions like Turner and Hezonja is pointless.

this is all about talent and Portland only has one elite player. That's not enough

the Pelicans swept Portland when CJ & Nurkic were healthy. Sorry, but this is a problem with the core pieces

I think that Nurk is elite and fits well with Dame. I think CJ is an elite level talent and what we can do with that should be discussed after the season. These guys are no less elite than the talent that surrounded some of the Tim Duncan teams in San Antonio or what Dirk had in Dallas. They might not fit next to Dame in the same way but they are of an equivalent level of talent to the second and third options on a lot of those championship teams. Hakeems first championship team with Houston had no one more elite than CJ or Nurk and the second championship was spurred by a Clyde who by that time may not have been more elite than Nurk will be by next season. The Pistons that won with Chauncey, Rasheed, Rip, Tayshaun and Ben didn't really have any all around elite talent outside of Sheed and maybe Chauncey but a lot of players who were elite at their roles but not guys who could garner more on the trade market than the guys we have now... how much overall elite talent would you give up for Rip Hamilton or Chauncey Billups for that matter? Make sure you look at their numbers. If you were trying to get someone well rounded and elite for Ben Wallace, how far would you really get. We saw what they had to give up to get Sheed... was that elite? I'm sorry but the narrative that building a championship needs two or more hall of famers or even two or more first team all nba caliber players is a false one. The narrative that you even need two or more perennial all stars is also false. We need the right pieces and already have a first teamer/perennial all star, we also have someone who could be a rung below that in Nurk and an excellent specialist in CJ who in the right situation would be a multiple time all star. We have an up and coming three and D star in Gary. I don't know how much we have in Nas but I think it could be something special. So while I'm pretty sure we won't win a championship this season... we aren't mathematically out of it so I'm not talking about players that need to be moved or anything. We have a high level of assets and talent on this team that very well could translate into championships.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think that Nurk is elite and fits well with Dame. I think CJ is an elite level talent and what we can do with that should be discussed after the season. These guys are no less elite than the talent that surrounded some of the Tim Duncan teams in San Antonio or what Dirk had in Dallas. They might not fit next to Dame in the same way but they are of an equivalent level of talent to the second and third options on a lot of those championship teams. Hakeems first championship team with Houston had no one more elite than CJ or Nurk and the second championship was spurred by a Clyde who by that time may not have been more elite than Nurk will be by next season. The Pistons that won with Chauncey, Rasheed, Rip, Tayshaun and Ben didn't really have any all around elite talent outside of Sheed and maybe Chauncey but a lot of players who were elite at their roles but not guys who could garner more on the trade market than the guys we have now... how much overall elite talent would you give up for Rip Hamilton or Chauncey Billups for that matter? Make sure you look at their numbers. If you were trying to get someone well rounded and elite for Ben Wallace, how far would you really get. We saw what they had to give up to get Sheed... was that elite? I'm sorry but the narrative that building a championship needs two or more hall of famers or even two or more first team all nba caliber players is a false one. The narrative that you even need two or more perennial all stars is also false. We need the right pieces and already have a first teamer/perennial all star, we also have someone who could be a rung below that in Nurk and an excellent specialist in CJ who in the right situation would be a multiple time all star. We have an up and coming three and D star in Gary. I don't know how much we have in Nas but I think it could be something special. So while I'm pretty sure we won't win a championship this season... we aren't mathematically out of it so I'm not talking about players that need to be moved or anything. We have a high level of assets and talent on this team that very well could translate into championships.

c'mon...CJ is not elite...that's diluting the meaning of the word. Top-10, maybe top-15 if you're stretching things, that's about the cut-off for elite talent

and CJ is not close to the level of a prime Tony Parker or a prime Manu or an aging DRob. That's really not debatable IMO

Nurkic? he's a top-5 C in my view, but a C is not going to solve the Dame-trap defense. Nurk can't come out 10 feet past the 3-point line, receive the escape pass from Dame, then turn, and consistently dribble drive into either running the offense or scoring his shot

if CJ and Nurk were elite, WTF happened against the Pelicans? What happened against the warriors last year? CJ was worse than Dame and he was single covered. What happened last night? I've seen 5 years of people arguing that the answer to the stop-Dame defense was lurking somewhere on the roster. I'd think in that time, the answer would have been unleashed already. What the hell are they waiting for? How much seasoning does CJ need to consistently show his elite credentials? He's played in 430 NBA games and will be 29 in a month. In two games this season, he's scored 34 points on 36 shots while having 3 assists and 6 turnovers....that's elite?

it's true, the series isn't over and the Blazers still have a shot. If you go by game 1, a decent shot....if you go by last night....uh-oh here we go again

 

[blazerkor]

c'mon...CJ is not elite...that's diluting the meaning of the word. Top-10, maybe top-15 if you're stretching things, that's about the cut-off for elite talent

and CJ is not close to the level of a prime Tony Parker or a prime Manu or an aging DRob. That's really not debatable IMO

Nurkic? he's a top-5 C in my view, but a C is not going to solve the Dame-trap defense. Nurk can't come out 10 feet past the 3-point line, receive the escape pass from Dame, then turn, and consistently dribble drive into either running the offense or scoring his shot

if CJ and Nurk were elite, WTF happened against the Pelicans? What happened against the warriors last year? CJ was worse than Dame and he was single covered. What happened last night? I've seen 5 years of people arguing that the answer to the stop-Dame defense was lurking somewhere on the roster. I'd think in that time, the answer would have been unleashed already. What the hell are they waiting for? How much seasoning does CJ need to consistently show his elite credentials? He's played in 430 NBA games and will be 29 in a month. In two games this season, he's scored 34 points on 36 shots while having 3 assists and 6 turnovers....that's elite?

it's true, the series isn't over and the Blazers still have a shot. If you go by game 1, a decent shot....if you go by last night....uh-oh here we go again

Whoa there. I don't think CJ as our second best player is the answer... I just think he has the value and we have other assets and I do believe in Nurk being able to help more than you do, to where I don't think we're too far from being able to solve the trapping problem and legitimately contend. Now what Olshey will do and/or what he should do to get us there is a conversation for the off season. For now, our guys need to hit their open shots, Dame needs to be a little more assertive/aggressive, we have to rebound better and not let there be so many scrambles for loose balls and when there are then we need to win far more of them. That is the only way we can win this series and advance... we don't have the option of changing the coach or players right now.

 

[Natebishop3]

the irony is this thread and question could have been posted during:

the Memphis series in 2015

and during the warrior series in 2016

and during the Warrior series in 2017

and during the Pelicans' series in 2018

and during the Warrior series in 2019

and now it's the Laker series in 2020

Blazers are now 3-21 in those series, and 2-21 against that trapping defense, and unless they find an answer, it could be 2-24

maybe it's the wrong question

And Stotts still has a job.

 

[wizenheimer]

Whoa there. I don't think CJ as our second best player is the answer... I just think he has the value and we have other assets and I do believe in Nurk being able to help more than you do, to where I don't think we're too far from being able to solve the trapping problem and legitimately contend. Now what Olshey will do and/or what he should do to get us there is a conversation for the off season. For now, our guys need to hit their open shots, Dame needs to be a little more assertive/aggressive, we have to rebound better and not let there be so many scrambles for loose balls and when there are then we need to win far more of them. That is the only way we can win this series and advance... we don't have the option of changing the coach or players right now.

ok...thanks for explanation

I guess my biggest issue would be, and I know you don't want to discuss the off-season...but my biggest issue is seeing how Portland can add another high level talent with CJ's contract clogging flexibility

 

[blazerkor]

ok...thanks for explanation

I guess my biggest issue would be, and I know you don't want to discuss the off-season...but my biggest issue is seeing how Portland can add another high level talent with CJ's contract clogging flexibility

Yeah, I am excited to see if we can do more in the playoffs first but I'm also excited to discuss with everyone, a lot of different ideas about how this team can seriously improve in the off season. So when the time comes I'll be all for that discussion. If the unlikely happens and we advance so far that moves don't seem to be the way the team should go... I'll still be posting about the moves I'm currently thinking they should make in the future. I'm not hedging my bets, I just want to pull for this team to do the best that they possibly can do until there's nothing left to play for and then address what needs to be done and what can be done.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

the irony is this thread and question could have been posted during:

the Memphis series in 2015

and during the warrior series in 2016

and during the Warrior series in 2017

and during the Pelicans' series in 2018

and during the Warrior series in 2019

and now it's the Laker series in 2020

Blazers are now 3-21 in those series, and 2-21 against that trapping defense, and unless they find an answer, it could be 2-24

maybe it's the wrong question

I sort of gave them a pass previously because there is no shame in losing multiple tumes to the warriors and you expect maybe a couple years of overcoming a playoff only strategy.

But if they still can't do anything to solve the trap in the next 3(hopefully 3+) games I'll have had enough.

Dame is now 30, he is declining athletically, its a shame to lose his prime seasons with the inability to counter a very basic high school basketball scheme.

 

[wizenheimer]

I sort of gave them a pass previously because there is no shame in losing multiple tumes to the warriors and you expect maybe a couple years of overcoming a playoff only strategy..

I've never thought they should have beaten the Warriors. But it wasn't just the Warriors who used that strategy, it was also the Pels and Memphis set the template before the Warriors used it and the Pels copied it. The book is out there, and there's little doubt the Lakers read the book between game 1 and game 2

what bothers me about the 3 Warrior series losses is that it's realistic to expect that when facing the same team, using the same defense, a 3rd time, there should have been some improvement. But, there wasn't. Not a bit. I get that Nurkic was out but he was there the season before against the Pels and it didn't make any difference

again....if the answer was on the roster, we'd see improvement over a 5 year period. Maybe we will in the 6th year, but last night was pretty demoralizing

 

[Natebishop3]

I sort of gave them a pass previously because there is no shame in losing multiple tumes to the warriors and you expect maybe a couple years of overcoming a playoff only strategy.

But if they still can't do anything to solve the trap in the next 3(hopefully 3+) games I'll have had enough.

Dame is now 30, he is declining athletically, its a shame to lose his prime seasons with the inability to counter a very basic high school basketball scheme.

I legitimately don't understand how the fuck Stotts hasn't figured out how to counter this.

Teams trap Harden and yet he is successful.

Teams trap Curry and yet he is successful.

How is it that Kerr can figure out ways to use Curry in his offense and get him shots but Terry can't? It's pathetic. Any time we have to go away from hero ball we just flounder. We trade off between Dame and CJ playing hero ball, and if they're both cold we just lose.

 

[James lamphear]

Yeah the coach should have something in place for traps. But Dame has been in this league long enough to get rid the ball before the trap. Plus the other players have to move to help fold the trap. You got have someone come up the middle received the ball so you got numbers then. But our big problem is we got 2 guards that likes to dribble to much and plus go iso to much too. CJ is the worst at that part of his game plus he always looking for his shot.

 

[brooklynballer]

I don't understand how the fuck Stotts hasn't figured out how to counter this.

Teams trap Harden and yet he is successful.

Teams trap Curry and yet he is successful.

How is it that Kerr can figure out ways to use Curry in his offense and get him shots but Terry can't? It's pathetic. Any time we have to go away from hero ball we just flounder. We trade off between Dame and CJ playing hero ball, and if they're both cold we just lose.

I’m telling y’all, the man doesn’t coach. He lets CJ and Dame freelance which may be successful against lesser opponents during the regular season, but is a recipe for disaster in the playoffs as we’ve all seen for the last six seasons. One of the Stotts fanboys please explain to me why the Blazers come out flat after the half in almost every game? Why do they consistently get outscored in the third quarter and then try to claw their way back in the fourth? Is he incapable of firing his team up and getting them ready for the half? The man has no fire, because his job is safe... and that’s on Olshey.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Time for new management and coaching

 

[BonesJones]

 

[PCmor7]

I like that side pick and roll, but you can't run it as close to the sideline as the Lakers forced us to do it. It's like adding a third defender with the sideline.

And, honestly, Dame's not getting a lot of offense from the wing. He's much more effective from the top.

 

[BonesJones]

I like that side pick and roll, but you can't run it as close to the sideline as the Lakers forced us to do it. It's like adding a third defender with the sideline.

And, honestly, Dame's not getting a lot of offense from the wing. He's much more effective from the top.

You supposed to run side pick n roll from around FT line extended with Dame going middle with 3 players on the weakside. Would be a good thing to do against the trap.

That clip we were running it at halfcourt with Dame going towards the sideline with players in the corner. We do that way too much.

8 years into his tenure here and Stotts still has no idea what to do against the trap.

 

[Natebishop3]

The funniest part to me is that we have been playing into this shit for five years.

We screen for Dame like they're not just gonna trap. HOW THE FUCK HAS HE NOT FIGURED THIS OUT YET?!?!

 

[BonesJones]

The funniest part to me is that we have been playing into this shit for five years.

We screen for Dame like they're not just gonna trap. HOW THE FUCK HAS HE NOT FIGURED THIS OUT YET?!?!

But people blame it on the guys standing in the corners... Its comical.

 

[Natebishop3]

But people blame it on the guys standing in the corners... Its comical.

 

[blazerkor]

I don't know if this has already been posted in here but the solution is obvious or at least why it's not being solved is. Dame isn't turning the ball over when he sees these traps, he's not getting stripped, he's not making passes out of bounds or to opponents and he's not getting pinned against the half court or sideline... these things aren't happening. Dame is able to pass out of these traps giving his teammates four on three situations (sometimes Dame splits the double and just makes teams pay by doing Dame things but that's not to be relied upon). The problem also isn't that our guys don't have the right skills to take advantage of the four on three situations our guys can shoot open threes, our guys can pass and we have a big that we can throw it up to and can either pass, shoot or get to the hole for what should be an easy score. If the guys out there with Dame are CJ, Gary, Melo and Nurk which I think is obviously the best lineup to make teams pay for these extremely early traps, then there is no excuse for these guys not scoring. The two guys Dame tends to get the ball to when trapped are CJ and Nurk.

When CJ gets the ball instead of either taking the open three or rotating the ball around the perimeter to the open shooter, CJ tends to try to set up an offense or set up his own iso (almost always trying to set up his own iso) this nullifies the four on three advantage and gives the other team time to get back into their half court defense... therefore CJ doesn't punish teams for trapping Dame. Melo does the same thing the few times he gets the pass from Dame. Gary rarely gets that pass and is the most likely to either put up the open jumper or pass the ball, unfortunately he's passing the ball to one of the two guys who won't do the right thing. When Nurk gets the ball he either passes or hands it off and screens or if the lane is wide open he takes it to the hole. When Nurk hands it off the guy he hands it off to should take that shot that is now open because of the screen and lack of help due to the four on three. However that guy, almost always CJ, dribbles too much and lets the defense recover... if for some reason two of the three defenders are there on the hand off obviously a shooter would be open and the move would be to pass it immediately to that open shooter (CJ tends to not do this either and the same can be said for Melo). When Nurk has that open lane and takes the ball to the hole he often goes up rushed and weak when he has time to gather quickly and go up strong. These are the reasons we don't make them pay for trapping and they are the reasons teams continue to trap Dame.

Simple adjustments seem to be the obvious answer. Tell CJ, Melo and everyone else to take the fucking shot or rotate the ball. Tell Nurk to stop putting up that weak ass shit. That's it! That's all we have to do to make this work with this lineup. Either Stotts is too stupid to see these obvious answers, he sees them and doesn't say anything, he sees them says something and then doesn't hold his players accountable or CJ, Nurk and Melo are just completely belligerently uncoachable. We don't know which one of these scenarios is going on because this team is so goddamn polite... it's a fucking shame. I think, even with what is most likely very weak accountability from Stotts that Nurk will fix his problems around the basket offensively. CJ on the other hand has throughout his career passed up open shots and open teammates to senselessly dribble the ball and try to go one on one. Melo obviously has a similar history to CJ. I think the only reason that CJ doesn't have a reputation for being uncoachable is because Stotts hasn't come out and said it... like George Karl did about Melo. If Stotts or Dame would just tell the media or more productively Olshey that CJ is a ball hog then I think a lot of our offensive woes would make sense or be alleviated. If we weren't so busy singing Kumbaya and compelled players to play their roles and execute efficiently then we'd have the most dangerous offense in the league. If the players can't be compelled then that should be dealt with in the off season.

If we go with the big lineup then the solution is only a little different. You would have Nurk up high, CJ and Melo on the wings and either Hassan or Wenyen near the hoop. The situation is the same at that point except instead of the only two correct options being shoot the open shot or move the ball around the perimeter, there is a third option do dump the ball down to a wide open dunker. With their percentages you could even have Ant or Rio on the perimeter and it would punish teams enough to stop trapping Dame. This shit isn't rocket science.

 

[Natebishop3]

I don't know if this has already been posted in here but the solution is obvious or at least why it's not being solved is. Dame isn't turning the ball over when he sees these traps, he's not getting stripped, he's not making passes out of bounds or to opponents and he's not getting pinned against the half court or sideline... these things aren't happening. Dame is able to pass out of these traps giving his teammates four on three situations (sometimes Dame splits the double and just makes teams pay by doing Dame things but that's not to be relied upon). The problem also isn't that our guys don't have the right skills to take advantage of the four on three situations our guys can shoot open threes, our guys can pass and we have a big that we can throw it up to and can either pass, shoot or get to the hole for what should be an easy score. If the guys out there with Dame are CJ, Gary, Melo and Nurk which I think is obviously the best lineup to make teams pay for these extremely early traps, then there is no excuse for these guys not scoring. The two guys Dame tends to get the ball to when trapped are CJ and Nurk.

When CJ gets the ball instead of either taking the open three or rotating the ball around the perimeter to the open shooter, CJ tends to try to set up an offense or set up his own iso (almost always trying to set up his own iso) this nullifies the four on three advantage and gives the other team time to get back into their half court defense... therefore CJ doesn't punish teams for trapping Dame. Melo does the same thing the few times he gets the pass from Dame. Gary rarely gets that pass and is the most likely to either put up the open jumper or pass the ball, unfortunately he's passing the ball to one of the two guys who won't do the right thing. When Nurk gets the ball he either passes or hands it off and screens or if the lane is wide open he takes it to the hole. When Nurk hands it off the guy he hands it off to should take that shot that is now open because of the screen and lack of help due to the four on three. However that guy, almost always CJ, dribbles too much and lets the defense recover... if for some reason two of the three defenders are there on the hand off obviously a shooter would be open and the move would be to pass it immediately to that open shooter (CJ tends to not do this either and the same can be said for Melo). When Nurk has that open lane and takes the ball to the hole he often goes up rushed and weak when he has time to gather quickly and go up strong. These are the reasons we don't make them pay for trapping and they are the reasons teams continue to trap Dame.

Simple adjustments seem to be the obvious answer. Tell CJ, Melo and everyone else to take the fucking shot or rotate the ball. Tell Nurk to stop putting up that weak ass shit. That's it! That's all we have to do to make this work with this lineup. Either Stotts is too stupid to see these obvious answers, he sees them and doesn't say anything, he sees them says something and then doesn't hold his players accountable or CJ, Nurk and Melo are just completely belligerently uncoachable. We don't know which one of these scenarios is going on because this team is so goddamn polite... it's a fucking shame. I think, even with what is most likely very weak accountability from Stotts that Nurk will fix his problems around the basket offensively. CJ on the other hand has throughout his career passed up open shots and open teammates to senselessly dribble the ball and try to go one on one. Melo obviously has a similar history to CJ. I think the only reason that CJ doesn't have a reputation for being uncoachable is because Stotts hasn't come out and said it... like George Karl did about Melo. If Stotts or Dame would just tell the media or more productively Olshey that CJ is a ball hog then I think a lot of our offensive woes would make sense or be alleviated. If we weren't so busy singing Kumbaya and compelled players to play their roles and execute efficiently then we'd have the most dangerous offense in the league. If the players can't be compelled then that should be dealt with in the off season.

If we go with the big lineup then the solution is only a little different. You would have Nurk up high, CJ and Melo on the wings and either Hassan or Wenyen near the hoop. The situation is the same at that point except instead of the only two correct options being shoot the open shot or move the ball around the perimeter, there is a third option do dump the ball down to a wide open dunker. With their percentages you could even have Ant or Rio on the perimeter and it would punish teams enough to stop trapping Dame. This shit isn't rocket science.

Lol CJ pass the ball... that's rich.

 

[blazerkor]

Lol CJ pass the ball... that's rich.

That's the hardest I've laughed at a post in a while... well said.