Why not Shavlik?

[Ed O]

Yes, I am watching the games. I've seen every minute of every game Ike has played in this year. And what I see over and over is a guy so determined to get a shot up he forces it up against double teams without ever even thinking about passing. It doesn't matter if they're from 20 feet or 20 inches - HE'S NOT MAKING THEM FOR A REASON. They are forced shots against multiple defenders when he has wide open teammates and he refuses to pass the ball. He's had over 30% of his FG attempts blocked. Why, because he's forcing up shots he has no chance of making.

Have you been watching the games? It sure doesn't sound like it.

I keep waiting for you to say, "Just kidding!"

You think that he's taking bad shots because he's "double teamed" 20 inches from the hoop?

And you think that 13 shots is enough to be an indicator of his ability to make shots?

Let me repeat something, again in all bold: he's missed NINE SHOTS ALL SEASON from the floor. Four of those have been blocked. That means he's actually missed five shots all year. A couple of those were layups that he just blew.

I seriously can't believe that you think he's forcing bad shots and all that based on a couple of missed layups. It boggles my mind.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

Shavlik is a far superior talent to Ike. I don't think most of you ever caught Shav's excellent season with Philly when he was healthy. He contributed regularly.

What season was he healthy and "excellent"? I'm honestly curious. He started six games in his second year, but he was shooting under 55% from the free throw line and 14 minutes a game. Was that when he was excellent?

Or his rookie year, when his PER was 12.6 in under 9 minutes a game?

Ed O.

 

[LameR]

I'd rather give Ike a bit more of a shot before switching to backup PF number 3. I like Ike's rebounding. Hopefully he can get a bit more comfortable and do more than that. I didn't get to watch the Toronto game, so I don't know how that went.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Ike seems like one of those players that dominates in high school and college and just isn't built for the NBA. Then there are also those players that are just pretty good players in college, and are pretty good in the NBA as well, which is what I think BNM is hoping for.

I'm actually all for giving Randolph a shot. He actually played well in the preseason, and i'm not a fan of Frye or Diogu.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

What season was he healthy and "excellent"? I'm honestly curious. He started six games in his second year, but he was shooting under 55% from the free throw line and 14 minutes a game. Was that when he was excellent?

Or his rookie year, when his PER was 12.6 in under 9 minutes a game?

Ed O.

So is it better to be not healthy and not playing or healthy and not playing? Because Ike Diogu has taken the latter approach to his career. You keep acting as if Ike is a guy about to break out but none of the teams seemed to think so despite being a lottery pick. Check the box scores, when Shavlik played minutes for Philly in 05-06, he produced. It's true that he hasn't been able to stay healthy most of his career, but that is pretty irrelevant when deciding who is best to man the backup power forward spot. Even less relevant is his 55% from the free throw line when Ike Diogu is shooting 30% from the field and can't seem to make layups because he is both undersized and unathletic for his position.

Not to mention the guy outplayed Ike in the preseason undoubtedly. Keep pointing out stats that are arbitrary.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I keep waiting for you to say, "Just kidding!"

You think that he's taking bad shots because he's "double teamed" 20 inches from the hoop?

And you think that 13 shots is enough to be an indicator of his ability to make shots?

Let me repeat something, again in all bold: he's missed NINE SHOTS ALL SEASON from the floor. Four of those have been blocked. That means he's actually missed five shots all year. A couple of those were layups that he just blew.

I seriously can't believe that you think he's forcing bad shots and all that based on a couple of missed layups. It boggles my mind.

Ed O.

So, he either gets his shot swatted back in his face or misses a contested lay-up - and you think those are good shots?

He didn't fare much better in the preseason playing against mostly scrubs.

Yeah, the data set is small, but the results have been awful. Every time he touches the ball I groan, becuase I know what's coming - a forced shot that has little chance to actually go in when he has wide open teammates to pass to. Maybe you don't consider those bad shots, but I do. How much more of his 30% shooting do you want to see before you think it might not be a bad idea to give the guy who totally outplayed him in preseason a chance at those 3 MPG?

BNM

 

[Ed O]

So, he either gets his shot swatted back in his face or misses a contested lay-up - and you think those are good shots?

He didn't fare much better in the preseason playing against mostly scrubs.

Yeah, the data set is small, but the results have been awful. Every time he touches the ball I groan, becuase I know what's coming - a forced shot that has little chance to actually go in when he has wide open teammates to pass to. Maybe you don't consider those bad shots, but I do. How much more of his 30% shooting do you want to see before you think it might not be a bad idea to give the guy who totally outplayed him in preseason a chance at those 3 MPG?

I'm sorry you groan, but you've got some sort of weird blind spot. He has been to the line almost twice as many times as he's missed shots.

Assuming no three point plays (which is not accurate, but for this ridiculously small sample we might as well continue to simplify), he's been fouled on eight shots.

Add those eight shots to his 13 attempts and that means he's either been fouled on the shot or scored a hoop on 12 of his 21 attempts.

That makes you groan? Seriously?

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

So is it better to be not healthy and not playing or healthy and not playing? Because Ike Diogu has taken the latter approach to his career.

Dude. Please stop making stuff up. Please.

First you say Randolph was "excellent", and now you act as if Ike has been healthy and just riding the bench his entire career.

I think you need to do some research before you post what you claim are facts.

Diogu played 69 games (including 14 starts... twice as many as Randolph has had in his entire career) as a rookie. He had fractured a bone in his left hand in training camp.

Diogu played in 59 games in his second year and missed 17 games with a sprained ankle.

He played 30 games last year. He missed around 20 games because of a torn calf muscle.

You seriously are claiming that he has been injury-free?

You keep acting as if Ike is a guy about to break out but none of the teams seemed to think so despite being a lottery pick.

I'm not acting as if he's about to break out. Please tell me where I've said that. I AM saying he's at least as good as Frye (and better than Frye has played this season) and that he's better than Shavlik.

Check the box scores, when Shavlik played minutes for Philly in 05-06, he produced.

You've gotta be kidding. His PER is 12.6 that year. He got fewer than 9 minutes a game. That's scrub territory.

It's true that he hasn't been able to stay healthy most of his career, but that is pretty irrelevant when deciding who is best to man the backup power forward spot.

Which player are you talking about again? The one who has the invisible "excellent" season or the one who's been mythically injury-free in his career?

Even less relevant is his 55% from the free throw line when Ike Diogu is shooting 30% from the field and can't seem to make layups because he is both undersized and unathletic for his position.

Not to mention the guy outplayed Ike in the preseason undoubtedly. Keep pointing out stats that are arbitrary.

I brought up the 55% FT% because I honestly wanted to know what year you think Shavlik was excellent.

I've never claimed that Diogu has been excellent, but if I had I guarantee you I would have a better response than "check the box scores".

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm sorry you groan, but you've got some sort of weird blind spot. He has been to the line almost twice as many times as he's missed shots.

Assuming no three point plays (which is not accurate, but for this ridiculously small sample we might as well continue to simplify), he's been fouled on eight shots.

Add those eight shots to his 13 attempts and that means he's either been fouled on the shot or scored a hoop on 12 of his 21 attempts.

That makes you groan? Seriously?

Ed O.

What makes me groan is that he has the same number of blocked shots as made FGs and NEVER even looks to pass the ball to an open teammate. If that's not a sign of forcing up bad shots, I don't know what is.

While I can see why you might be arguing that Diogu deserves more of a chance to prove himself before we give Shavlik a try, now you're trying to argue that Ike is better than Frye? You do know there's more to evaluating a player's performance than simply looking up their PER, right?

Frye makes a higher percentage of his FGs. His shooting also spreads the defense and creates space and scoring opportunities for his teammates. Unlike Ike, he actually passes the ball and gets an occasional assist. When Ike touches the ball, the offense grinds to a halt while he forces up a shot which is just as likely to get blocked as go in. Until Frye gets his shot swatted as often as he makes it (54 times so far this season), and refuses to pass the ball, I don't think there is a valid argument that Ike deserves more minutes than Channing.

Yes, Channing is having his worst year as a pro, but you keep wanting to bring up Ike's past performance (when he shot better than 0.308 from the field) as a reason he deserves PT over Shavlik. Well, if we're going by past performance and not current/recent performance, Channing definitely deserves to be playing in front of Ike.

We're obviously not going to agree on this. When I watch Ike play, I don't like what I see. I see a selfish player in his contract year trying to pad his own stats by forcing up shots every time he touches the ball - not a team player working with his teammates to try to win games. You can disagree all you want, but that's what I've seen every time he's played this season. Until I actually see him pass the ball, you'll have a hard time convincing me otherwise.

BNM

 

[Ed O]

Yes, Channing is having his worst year as a pro, but you keep wanting to bring up Ike's past performance (when he shot better than 0.308 from the field) as a reason he deserves PT over Shavlik. Well, if we're going by past performance and not current/recent performance, Channing definitely deserves to be playing in front of Ike.

What? Why?

Frye has a single good year year (his rookie season). He stunk his second year in NY and he didn't do much of anything in Portland, either.

Couple those two full years of mediocrity-to-crap with his career-worst basketball this season and I think that a pattern has definitely emerged and Ike deserves a chance.

By the way: you think that Ike is a ballhog, but his Usage is almost the same as Frye's this year (21.3 to 20.8).

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

By the way: you think that Ike is a ballhog, but his Usage is almost the same as Frye's this year (21.3 to 20.8).

And how many assists does Ike have? Channing has 16. Let me know when Ike gets his first. He doesn't even look to pass. So yes, in my book that makes him a selfish ballhog.

BNM

 

[Ed O]

And how many assists does Ike have? Channing has 16. Let me know when Ike gets his first. He doesn't even look to pass. So yes, in my book that makes him a selfish ballhog.

Do you want to know how many Frye would have if he'd get them at the same rate that he does this year but had played as many minutes as Ike?

2.29.

And in their careers (including this season, which you are inexplicably giving so much weight to re: Ike) they have a difference of 0.2 assists per 36 minutes (1.3 to 1.1).

Quite a difference there, huh? Frye's a regular John Stockton.

Of course, you might be right that since Ike doesn't have one in 51 minutes, he would go 357 minutes without one. It's just very, very unlikely.

If they both played 9 minutes next game and Ike got 3 assists to Frye's 0, would you consider Frye the black hole of the two? After all, Ike would have a higher assist/minute rate.

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

And in their careers (including this season, which you are inexplicably giving so much weight to re: Ike) they have a difference of 0.2 assists per 36 minutes (1.3 to 1.1).

I'm talking about this year and what I've seen from Ike. He is in a contract year (so is Frye) and playing VERY selfishly. I haven't seen him pass the ball once, let alone get an actual assist. Every time he touches it, he shoots - no matter what.

Quite a difference there, huh? Frye's a regular John Stockton.

Nice stretch. I never said anything remotely like that. I will say this. The way Ike Diogu is playing right now, he makes Eddie Curry look like a capable and willing passer.

Of course, you might be right that since Ike doesn't have one in 51 minutes, he would go 357 minutes without one. It's just very, very unlikely.

I would be less surprised to see him with zero assists in 357 minutes than the 16 Frye has in that many minutes. In fact, I would be absolutely stunned to see Ike rack up 16 assists in his next 306 minutes.

If they both played 9 minutes next game and Ike got 3 assists to Frye's 0, would you consider Frye the black hole of the two? After all, Ike would have a higher assist/minute rate.

Why would it change my opinion of Frye? It wouldn't lower the number of assists Frye has. If Diogu is suddenly less of a black hole, that doesn't make Frye more of one.

What it would do is totally shock me. Ike's career high for assists is 3. He did it once in his rookie year and once in his second season - and neither time in 9 minutes. It would be unprecedented. And, if anything he's playing much more selfishly now, in a contract year, than he was back than as a rookie and second year player and occasional starter. If Ike got three assists in nine minutes, it would be a total departure from the way he's played in the previous 13 games. Of course, it would change my opinion of him because it would be a total change in the way plays. If he starts to play like a team player it will definitely raise my opinion of his play. But, it would not change my opinion of Frye. Why would it?

BNM

 

[Ed O]

Did you see him pass last night? He had two near-assists where guys missed jumpers. I hadn't been watching to see if he'd passed earlier in the year, but since you seem to be actually claiming that he literally doesn't pass, I wanted to make sure you were paying attention.

He also (predictably) raised his field goal percentage, got an offensive rebound and got to the free throw line. All in six minutes.

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Did you see him pass last night? He had two near-assists where guys missed jumpers. I hadn't been watching to see if he'd passed earlier in the year, but since you seem to be actually claiming that he literally doesn't pass, I wanted to make sure you were paying attention.

He also (predictably) raised his field goal percentage, got an offensive rebound and got to the free throw line. All in six minutes.

Ed O.

No, unfortunately I didn't. I wasn't able to watch the first three quarters of the game last night, but from the box score it looks like Ike was productive in his 6 minutes - and that's a good thing.

My comments were based on what I'd seen in the previous 13 games. Admittedly, most of those minutes were garbage time late in the 4th quarter of blow outs. So, with the game not on the line, and playing with rest of the end-of-the-bench gang, maybe Ike was more inclined to try to pad his own stats by forcing up a shot everytime he touched the ball. It is, after all, a contract year for him.

Perhaps, with a regular role in the rotation. he will play more in the flow of the offense and not be so inclined to force up bad shots and actually pass to the open temmate when he's doubled. Based on his production, and your comments, it's encouraging. I'll want to see more of the same before I'll consider Ike a changed player (from his previous 13 appearances), but as I said earlier, if he changes the way he plays, it will change my opinion of him as a player.

BNM