Why?

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Why is this happening?

To me it's a combination of several things-

I think the main issues are the overwhelming dosage of violence in movies, TV, music and video games. It has been marketed to be cool and even fun and is inescapable. Add to that an inadequate mental health system and more people mentally/emotionally ill and the increase of both illicit RX and street drugs and finally easy access to guns and it creates a toxic mix that breed tragedy on an epic scale that has no end in sight.

So what to do? Needless to say thats a massive debate, but take these catagories- movie/music/TV/video violence, mental/emotional health, drugs and guns, break them down and find a way to fight this within those and maybe some headway can be made.

Just my opinion.

 

[PapaG]

...do birds suddenly appear ... every time ... you're near?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

...do birds suddenly appear ... every time ... you're near?

If that's you little way of poking fun and school kids being shot up, then go to hell.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Why is this happening?

To me it's a combination of several things-

I think the main issues are the overwhelming dosage of violence in movies, TV, music and video games. It has been marketed to be cool and even fun and is inescapable. Add to that an inadequate mental health system and more people mentally/emotionally ill and the increase of both illicit RX and street drugs and finally easy access to guns and it creates a toxic mix that breed tragedy on an epic scale that has no end in sight.

So what to do? Needless to say thats a massive debate, but take these catagories- movie/music/TV/video violence, mental/emotional health, drugs and guns, break them down and find a way to fight this within those and maybe some headway can be made.

Just my opinion.

I don't totally disagree with you, but I'll say that 17 year old are legally not allowed to see R-rated movies unless with their parents/guardians, or play M video games. Does that help?

 

[PapaG]

If that's you little way of poking fun and school kids being shot up, then go to hell.

First thing that popped into my mind. You have your policy debate today, if you must. I'll worry about viewing these deaths to fit my own politics later, if ever.

How I was "poking fun" at 20 dead kindergartners, well, that's your issue, and totally fucking wrong in your assumption.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

as info comes out there will be time to discuss if it could have been prevented, early warning signs, etc

right now its best to just hug your kids, mourn for the victims families, and if you believe in a god, pray

 

[Nikolokolus]

There is no two paragraph explanation for "why?" All I can say is that I suspect what you are talking about BP are merely the symptoms of what ails us. There is a deep seeded sense of paranoia and a proclivity for resolving our issues with violence in our society that goes all the way back to the founding.

I think that fundamentally this is who we are on some level, the only thing that seems to have changed in the last fifty years is that the veneer of civility and decency that used to temper our collective behavior has been gradually eroded. It seems we live in a culture that celebrates bloodsport (UFC, football, etc.) lionizes violent resolutions to conflicts and drapes it all in a red, white and blue flag and calls it "freedom."

changing some laws, pointing fingers and looking for some institution, form of entertainment or whatever else as the root cause misses the point ... and it won't change a damned thing.

 

[PapaG]

as info comes out there will be time to discuss if it could have been prevented, early warning signs, etc

right now its best to just hug your kids, mourn for the victims families, and if you believe in a god, pray

Pretty much my take, too. Lashing out with a valid opinion, and there are a lot of them when it comes to politicizing this massacre, while fueled with emotion isn't a foundation for a productive debate.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i guess my point is, the why might become apparent as info comes out the next few days

 

[MARIS61]

There is no great increase in violence in America, the opposite is actually true. There is no great increase in mass shootings, they are less frequent than death by bee sting or death by lightning strike.

The increase is in media prostitution of these extremely rare but tragic events, and in the guileless opportunism by gun control advocates. Both should be utterly ashamed of their actions.

 

[Denny Crane]

The "why" is not going to satisfy anyone. It's likely to be "the voices in my head told me to"

 

[Denny Crane]

Gun control is a firm grip.

 

[PapaG]

i guess my point is, the why might become apparent as info comes out the next few days

I have friends on Facebook who are going off on rants right now, and huge flame wars are breaking out. Kind of sad to see adults jump right into the blame game without taking time to appreciate what they have themselves, and to mourn 20+ families who are in similar situations as many of us, at least in terms of having kids in school.

 

[Nikolokolus]

There is no great increase in violence in America, the opposite is actually true. There is no great increase in mass shootings, they are less frequent than death by bee sting or death by lightning strike.

The increase is in media prostitution of these extremely rare but tragic events, and in the guileless opportunism by gun control advocates. Both should be utterly ashamed of their actions.

Shut up.

 

[Draco]

I'm a believer in positive motivation trumping negative motivation. I'd like to hope its more effective to make positive improvements in peoples wellbeing then to add restrictions on what people can't do out of our fear of bad events happening.

 

[Draco]

There is no great increase in violence in America, the opposite is actually true. There is no great increase in mass shootings, they are less frequent than death by bee sting or death by lightning strike.

The increase is in media prostitution of these extremely rare but tragic events, and in the guileless opportunism by gun control advocates. Both should be utterly ashamed of their actions.

"Half the nation's worst shootings ever have occurred since 2007"

With at least 27 people confirmed dead in the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting in Connecticut, the tragedy has taken the second-most lives of any such incident in American history, and stands as one of the most horrific school shootings around the world. Thirty-two people were killed by student Seung-Hui Cho at Virginia Tech University in 2007 before he turned his gun on himself in the deadliest shooting on U.S. soil. In 2004, pro-Chechen rebels in Russia took more than 1,200 schoolchildren and adults hostage in Beslan, and at least 386 eventually died in gunfire between the rebels and security forces. In all, half of the nation's deadliest shootings have occurred in the last five years. [Source]

1. April 16, 2007: Virginia Tech campus in Blacksburg; 32 dead + shooter

2. Oct. 16, 1991: Luby's Cafeteria, in Killeen, Tex.; 23 dead + shooter

3. July 18, 1984: McDonald's restaurant in San Ysidro, Calif.; 21 dead + shooter

4. Aug. 1, 1966: University of Texas at Austin; 16 dead + shooter

5. Aug. 20, 1986: Post office in Edmond, Okla.; 14 dead + shooter

6. April 20, 1999: Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo.; 13 dead + 2 shooters

7. April 3, 2009: Immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y.; 13 dead + shooter

8. Nov. 5, 2009: Soldier Readiness Processing Center at Fort Hood, Texas; 13 dead

9. Sept. 6, 1949: Camden, N.J.; 13 dead

10. July 20, 2012: Movie theater in Aurora, Colo.; 12 dead

http://now.msn.com/newtown-school-shooting-ranks-among-the-worst-in-history?ocid=ansnowrel1

 

[Wheels]

I came into this thread expecting to see certain scriptures that talk about the state of mankind.

 

[RR7]

"Half the nation's worst shootings ever have occurred since 2007"



http://now.msn.com/newtown-school-shooting-ranks-among-the-worst-in-history?ocid=ansnowrel1

But is there an increase in the number, or frequency of them? That statistic just shows that they have become increasingly more violent, possibly due to the choice of weapons.

 

[donkiez]

I posted this in the other thread but now that this one is up its probably more appropriate here. A little outside the box...

I believe the root cause is our governments monetary policy and constant inflation. What you say? Here goes....

Think back to the 50's family structure. We had mostly single income family supported by the Dad with the Mom taking care of the kids. These kids had their Mom available to help nurture and support kids through their deveolpment and teaching them how to deal with issues. When inflation really kick started, once we got off the gold standard, the American family compensated by sending the Mom to work, at least part time, to make up the income difference. As time goes on and it bacame harder for these familys to make ends meat so the Moms became more and more career orientated spending less time at home to support their children emotionally so they could support their kids financially. Even when the parents were home they are often were so exhausted and not willing to deal with their kids. Each generation became less family oriented and more work oriented and with less parenting skills or abilities leading to a higher divorce rate and single parents with even less support for raising their children. Fast forward to the 90's where many more kids were raised by TV's and to the 2000's where TV's were replaced by video games and we are seeing an exponential increase in these types of troubled kids who are now becomeing young adults and have no copeing abilities.

 

[Denny Crane]

But is there an increase in the number, or frequency of them? That statistic just shows that they have become increasingly more violent, possibly due to the choice of weapons.

Exactly.

California at one point had over 4,000 gun deaths in a year - more than we lost soldiers in Iraq in 10 (Iraq much more violent, and similar sized population). Last year, 877 gun deaths in California.

 

[magnifier661]

So what's the excuse of mass murders before video games and violent TV was out to corrupt the children? Stuff like this has happened throughout human history. There are some that aren't able to function like the normal masses and their way of coping is to kill, maim or go into seclusion.

 

[Masbee]

Why?

It is too easy for mentaly unstable people to obtain extermely lethal and portable weapons in a short timeframe to carry out their impulsive desires.

In addition:

there is no law that can be passed and enforced that would eliminate the hundreds of millions of weapons in the U.S., so we are stuck with a being a gun country.

Stronger regulations may help somewhat in preventing such easy and convenient access to the most lethal of the weapons, however they come at great cost in money and loss of liberty.

Stronger regulations poorly implemented (the only way the goverment tends to operate) will have the effect of disarming more of the sane, law-abiding citizens who are afraid of running afoul of laws that could ensnare them. The more disarmed the general populace is the more shootings succeed. See article here which discusses regulations and an armed public.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...se-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/

It would seem sensible to keep easy access to firearms from mentally unstable people - for their own protection and ours. That runs into conflict with privacy laws and ethical conduct of doctors. How do you balance that?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/what-can-we-do-to-stop-massacres/266300/

And one issue that you seldom see mentioned, but which I brought up in the Blazer board after Columbine:

Antipsychotics.

One of the known side-effects of anti-psychotics drugs is creating extreme thoughts of suicide and violence. (Ironic no?)

Most of the Rampage murderers turn out to have been on antiphychotics. Some say that is damning evidence. I think it is a good chicken/egg question. Howver, that fact that strong feelings of violence/suicide are reported by non-violent users suggests that for some who are deeply troubled, taking antipsychotics pushes those feelings to the forefront until they explode.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20305596
http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/colorado-mass-murder-linked-to-prescription-drug-use/
http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/t...senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I posted this in the other thread but now that this one is up its probably more appropriate here. A little outside the box...

I believe the root cause is our governments monetary policy and constant inflation. What you say? Here goes....

Think back to the 50's family structure. We had mostly single income family supported by the Dad with the Mom taking care of the kids. These kids had their Mom available to help nurture and support kids through their deveolpment and teaching them how to deal with issues. When inflation really kick started, once we got off the gold standard, the American family compensated by sending the Mom to work, at least part time, to make up the income difference. As time goes on and it bacame harder for these familys to make ends meat so the Moms became more and more career orientated spending less time at home to support their children emotionally so they could support their kids financially. Even when the parents were home they are often were so exhausted and not willing to deal with their kids. Each generation became less family oriented and more work oriented and with less parenting skills or abilities leading to a higher divorce rate and single parents with even less support for raising their children. Fast forward to the 90's where many more kids were raised by TV's and to the 2000's where TV's were replaced by video games and we are seeing an exponential increase in these types of troubled kids who are now becomeing young adults and have no copeing abilities.

I enjoyed this post,although I see lost innocence as much to fault. Quantified by todays real time bombardment of information.

 

[magnifier661]

Why?

Is is too easy for mentaly unstable people to obtain extermely lethal and portable weapons in a short timeframe to carry out their impulsive desires.

In addition:

there is no law that can be passed and enforced that would eliminate the hundreds of millions of weapons in the U.S., so we are stuck with a being a gun country.

Stronger regulations may help somewhat in preventing such easy and convenient access to the most lethal of the weapons, however they come at great cost in money and loss of liberty.

Stronger regulations poorly implemented (the only way the goverment tends to operate) will have the effect of disarming more of the sane, law-abiding citizens who are afraid of running afoul of laws that could ensnare them. The more disarmed the general populace is the more shootings succeed. See article here which discusses regulations and an armed public.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...se-for-more-guns-and-more-gun-control/309161/

It would seem sensible to keep easy access to firearms from mentally unstable people - for their own protection and ours. That runs into conflict with privacy laws and ethical conduct of doctors. How do you balance that?

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/what-can-we-do-to-stop-massacres/266300/

And one issue that you seldom see mentioned, but which I brought up in the Blazer board after Columbine:

Antipsychotics.

One of the known side-effects of anti-psychotics drugs is creating extreme thoughts of suicide and violence. (Ironic no?)

Most of the Rampage murderers turn out to have been on antiphychotics. Some say that is damning evidence. I think it is a good chicken/egg question. Howver, that fact that strong feelings of violence/suicide are reported by non-violent users suggests that for some who are deeply troubled, taking antipshchotics pushes those feelings to the forefront until they explode.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20305596
http://healthimpactnews.com/2012/colorado-mass-murder-linked-to-prescription-drug-use/
http://www.cchrint.org/2012/07/20/t...senseless-shooting-another-psychotropic-drug/

And this kid that actually did this horrible thing. I wonder if that was even his guns? I wouldn't be surprised if it was his dads or he got it from the streets.

But what we could do is possibly have gun licenses and bi-annual psych evaluations? Who knows really.

 

[Masbee]

So what's the excuse of mass murders before video games and violent TV was out to corrupt the children? Stuff like this has happened throughout human history. There are some that aren't able to function like the normal masses and their way of coping is to kill, maim or go into seclusion.

I agree. I think the claim that violent media/games creates violence is pure horsepucky. There is no evidence for it. Look at Japan with its popular culture of very violent movies, comics, games, etc. Doesn't turn them into crazed killers.

 

[magnifier661]

I agree. I think the claim that violent media/games creates violence is pure horsepucky. There is no evidence for it. Look at Japan with its popular culture of very violent movies, comics, games, etc. Doesn't turn them into crazed killers.

Yep, I think there are just way too many factors to even pin point. Maybe something that set off one was completely different than what set off the other.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I firmly believe one factor is the upsurge in apocalyptic BS floating around. Everyone from some fundamentalist groups to extremist political groups to fans of ancient Mayan calenders are ranting about how the end of the world is nigh, and nothing can be done about it. Even a moron knows the difference between TV/video games and real life. This stuff, however, is coming from supposedly "respectable" authority figures.

You pour that nihilistic crap into the ear of a mentally disturbed person - and what do you expect?

 

[oldmangrouch]

And this kid that actually did this horrible thing. I wonder if that was even his guns? I wouldn't be surprised if it was his dads or he got it from the streets.

But what we could do is possibly have gun licenses and bi-annual psych evaluations? Who knows really.

Current reports indicate the guns belonged to his mother - who was also the first person he killed.

 

[magnifier661]

Current reports indicate the guns belonged to his mother - who was also the first person he killed.

Oh shit! I didn't know he killed his mom too.

 

[donkiez]

Just a thought but would it do any good to make people more responsible for their own guns? I mean the Clackamas guy stole his gun from a friend, should'nt the friend have some liability in not properly locking up and keep his gun safe? If you drink and drive and kill someone you get manslaughter, if you overserve at a bar and they kill someone you get charged also.