Without Sanctuary (2 Viewers)

[julius]

Fair warning, the following link is to a website that shows pictures of lynchings from our own history (our history, being that of the US). While I suspect that the main point of this thread will be lost and hijacked, I wanted to present it anyways, because its an interesting part of our nations history that a lot of us want to ignore, deny and claim that it's not an issue anymore (even 100+ years later).

I contend that it is an issue, and one that we're still facing the ramifications from to this day. And one that we're too busy finding a sand to bury our heads in to thoughtfully discuss and address.

http://withoutsanctuary.org/movie1.html

 

[Mediocre Man]

I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have a question. I don't understand how a black child born 10-20 years ago to parents who are educated and living in the suburbs can be affected by events that happened 100+ years ago.

 

[crandc]

I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have a question. I don't understand how a black child born 10-20 years ago to parents who are educated and living in the suburbs can be affected by events that happened 100+ years ago.

Best place to ask would IMO not be here - I think this board is pretty white. For a bunch of white folks to answer that would IMO be like all these men mansplaining rape on this board. Like offensive as hell.

I know that I was born after the Nazi Holocaust, as were the vast majority of Jews now living. And it affects us. And that did not happen in my country. So I don't find it hard to imagine that lynchings still impact African-Americans, especially when, sadly, racial profiling is still very much an issue, and has led to killing of innocents.

 

[Eastoff]

These seems somewhat relevant to MM's question
edit: I meant this vidoe
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-august-6-2013/the-r-word

 

[Mediocre Man]

Best place to ask would IMO not be here - I think this board is pretty white. For a bunch of white folks to answer that would IMO be like all these men mansplaining rape on this board. Like offensive as hell.

I know that I was born after the Nazi Holocaust, as were the vast majority of Jews now living. And it affects us. And that did not happen in my country. So I don't find it hard to imagine that lynchings still impact African-Americans, especially when, sadly, racial profiling is still very much an issue, and has led to killing of innocents.

Again, I really hope this is the point of the OP because I don't want to derail the thread, but don't you think that maybe prison and crime statistics have something to do with racial profiling as well?

And as for the Nazis, yes they are horrible, just as the KKK and Arian Nation are, but not all German people aren't horrible. So how is that you, born years after that horrible time are affected?

I have to look at it from my own eyes, I guess. My mother lost a brother at Pearl Harbor. She absolutely hates the Japanese. Me on the other hand have no problem with Japanese people because they have never done anything to me.

 

[julius]

I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have a question. I don't understand how a black child born 10-20 years ago to parents who are educated and living in the suburbs can be affected by events that happened 100+ years ago.

Easy.

Think macro vs micro. You seem to be thinking that racism ends just because something horrific stopped happening over a 100 years ago.

Women are considered our (male) equals, but 100 years ago they weren't. Does that mean that there aren't still sexist beliefs being practiced in businesses or homes?

Does that mean that the sexist views of people 50 and 100 years ago, don't have any impact on the thoughts of people in charge of the country now? That everything is kosher in businesses when it comes to pay or job opportunities?

It's not like everything is erased after 1 generation, or even 2 or 3. The cultural acceptance of racism and sexism in our country was rampant. It took a LOT of action in the 60's to even get it noticed and barely in the majority (and even that, it wasn't actually in the majority).

When you have a cultural history of excluding people from business ownership, home ownership, voting and equality, it has a long term impact and doesn't just go away because the practice of hanging people stopped.

I think it's odd that you have to ask this considering we still live in a country where black people are disproportionately in jail, pulled over, frisked and accused of crimes they didn't commit. Institutionalized racism has a long term impact.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Easy.

Think macro vs micro. You seem to be thinking that racism ends just because something horrific stopped happening over a 100 years ago.

Women are considered our (male) equals, but 100 years ago they weren't. Does that mean that there aren't still sexist beliefs being practiced in businesses or homes?

Does that mean that the sexist views of people 50 and 100 years ago, don't have any impact on the thoughts of people in charge of the country now? That everything is kosher in businesses when it comes to pay or job opportunities?

It's not like everything is erased after 1 generation, or even 2 or 3. The cultural acceptance of racism and sexism in our country was rampant. It took a LOT of action in the 60's to even get it noticed and barely in the majority (and even that, it wasn't actually in the majority).

When you have a cultural history of excluding people from business ownership, home ownership, voting and equality, it has a long term impact and doesn't just go away because the practice of hanging people stopped.

I think it's odd that you have to ask this considering we still live in a country where black people are disproportionately in jail, pulled over, frisked and accused of crimes they didn't commit. Institutionalized racism has a long term impact.

I just see it as a black child has the exact same opportunities my children, who are white. The fact that both black and white people can be hurt walking in the wrong part of town says to me that it is a two way street. As for disproportionaly being pulled over, I think it is a catch 22. Crimes committed and prison % causes more black people to be looked at, unfairly.

 

[julius]

I just see it as a black child has the exact same opportunities my children, who are white. The fact that both black and white people can be hurt walking in the wrong part of town says to me that it is a two way street.

And again, you're thinking small level, not big level. I could be hurt walking in the wrong part of town, just because that part of town is bad.

I'm talking institutional racism, you're talking individual. This is a country that made it legal to own people, make them not count as a whole person, and legal to discriminate against them basically up until the 60's. That had a long term impact on people and our prejudices and beliefs about people.

As for disproportionaly being pulled over, I think it is a catch 22. Crimes committed and prison % causes more black people to be looked at, unfairly.

But the point is WHY are they disproportionately pulled over/frisked? Why are they targeted, despite the #'s suggesting they shouldn't be?

Why does what happened 100 years ago have an impact today? If it doesn't, why isn't, then, the south completely free of racism? why isn't Portland free of racism?

 

[MarAzul]

Fair warning, the following link is to a website that shows pictures of lynchings from our own history (our history, being that of the US). While I suspect that the main point of this thread will be lost and hijacked, I wanted to present it anyways, because its an interesting part of our nations history that a lot of us want to ignore, deny and claim that it's not an issue anymore (even 100+ years later).

I contend that it is an issue, and one that we're still facing the ramifications from to this day. And one that we're too busy finding a sand to bury our heads in to thoughtfully discuss and address.

http://withoutsanctuary.org/movie1.html

Gosh, that is a real heart string tug. What do you suggest be done to eliminate the guilt of the Nation? How do we move on? What will cleanse our sins? Where in Oregon did these atrocities take place?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I hope this doesn't hijack the thread, but I have a question. I don't understand how a black child born 10-20 years ago to parents who are educated and living in the suburbs can be affected by events that happened 100+ years ago.

Those pics don't talk to you at all, MM? I mean, these are people that were tortured to their death, and even AFTER their death. The people around them in pictures posing, some smiling, for the camera. You don't get anything out of that? It was prevalent. It was such an institution. It was a way of life. To me, we still have a long ways to go, but on some levels, it's crazy to think that this stuff didn't happen all that long ago.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Those pics don't talk to you at all, MM? I mean, these are people that were tortured to their death, and even AFTER their death. The people around them in pictures posing, some smiling, for the camera. You don't get anything out of that? It was prevalent. It was such an institution. It was a way of life. To me, we still have a long ways to go, but on some levels, it's crazy to think that this stuff didn't happen all that long ago.

Of course they do. They are horrible images, as are the images of the holocaust and torture pictures from WW2 concentration camps. While it was horrific and appalling, I don't understand what those hangings, some 100+ years ago have to do with today?

 

[Natebishop3]

Ok, so explain this to me... I have a friend who is white. He looks white, his family is white, he was raised white. He is part American Indian. Enough that he should have been able to get benefits from the government, but he's a white guy. Is it okay for him to explain the pain and suffering that his ancestors endured over 100 years ago?

 

[MarAzul]

Those pics don't talk to you at all, MM? I mean, these are people that were tortured to their death, and even AFTER their death. The people around them in pictures posing, some smiling, for the camera. You don't get anything out of that? It was prevalent. It was such an institution. It was a way of life. To me, we still have a long ways to go, but on some levels, it's crazy to think that this stuff didn't happen all that long ago.

If we had as many feeling people as necessary, volunteer for a mass Kari Kari, how many would need to step forward and participate to atone for these atrocities?

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Ok, so explain this to me... I have a friend who is white. He looks white, his family is white, he was raised white. He is part American Indian. Enough that he should have been able to get benefits from the government, but he's a white guy. Is it okay for him to explain the pain and suffering that his ancestors endured over 100 years ago?

As long as he explains the other side, too.

 

[Natebishop3]

My grandfather is 100% Norwegian, so my Viking ancestors raped and pillaged all of your ancestors. I apologize for nothing.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Of course they do. They are horrible images, as are the images of the holocaust and torture pictures from WW2 concentration camps. While it was horrific and appalling, I don't understand what those hangings, some 100+ years ago have to do with today?

I think it's more about respect and acceptance at this point. Don't forget what happens when you hold onto fear, hate, disgust, or even just blindly follow/listen to others. Remember what happened, where we were, but move forward with acceptance and love for those who are both different and alike.

You should hear the conversation I had with my 5-year old. Bullying is such a big thing these days, especially with social media. I fear for my children. So I've taught them to stick up for themselves, but I also made it very clear we wouldn't tolerate her picking on other kids, laughing at other kids (so it took some time to teach the difference between laughing "with" and "at"). Sure the circumstances were different 50, 100, 150, 200 years ago. But the lessons we can learn remain the same.

 

[MarAzul]

My grandfather is 100% Norwegian, so my Viking ancestors raped and pillaged all of your ancestors. I apologize for nothing.

The tales that go with my family Claymore say we killed a lot of those bastards, Without remorse.

 

[julius]

Gosh, that is a real heart string tug. What do you suggest be done to eliminate the guilt of the Nation? How do we move on? What will cleanse our sins? Where in Oregon did these atrocities take place?

Well, for starters we can not be childish in our responses to a serious issue.

 

[julius]

Ok, so explain this to me... I have a friend who is white. He looks white, his family is white, he was raised white. He is part American Indian. Enough that he should have been able to get benefits from the government, but he's a white guy. Is it okay for him to explain the pain and suffering that his ancestors endured over 100 years ago?

if he's been in a situation where his ethnicity was used against him, or he experienced discrimination, sure? why not?

I mean, all sorts of black people don't look black...

 

[julius]

My grandfather is 100% Norwegian, so my Viking ancestors raped and pillaged all of your ancestors. I apologize for nothing.

This is why I was about to not post this article/video. Apparently we're not adult enough to carry on conversations without hyperbole.

 

[Natebishop3]

This is why I was about to not post this article/video. Apparently we're not adult enough to carry on conversations without hyperbole.

Oh come on Jules, it was a joke.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Oh come on Jules, it was a joke.

I am learning, slowly at that, that you can't joke about race here.

No good jokes about Mrs HCP having had sex with so many black guys that every time she has a pap smear 50 crimes are solved. Which is fucking hysterical, but someone will be offended

 

[Natebishop3]

What I find ridiculous is that there has been persecution, killing, genocide, and war throughout human history. I think at some point every race and ethnicity has been treated badly, so I don't understand how one race or one group can claim to still understand or warrant reparations for something that happened so long ago.

The Japanese were rounded up during WWII, in America, and imprisoned for no crime other than being Japanese. That wasn't even 100 years ago. There are still people alive who had to endure that.

The Irish were treated like shit when they emigrated here. So were the Chinese. Our country created legislation to persecute the Chinese that had come over during the 1800s.

If you go back to Europe, I'm sure virtually every person living in the United States has ancestors who were at some point persecuted because of their race or their religion.

I just find it ridiculous that anyone living today understands what their ancestors experienced over 100 years ago. I find it absurd that anyone today is entitled to reparations for something that happened a long time ago. Wars have been fought, land has been won and lost, and races have been enslaved and freed. Humans are evil. They do evil things. Even today, evil is present in the world.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Well, for starters we can not be childish in our responses to a serious issue.

Thn could you hae given a serious answerohim, rather than yours? For example you could have explained that in the stste of Oregon until 1927 or so, a person of color couldnot own property, and were encouraged not to reside within the state as a matter of rule.

My two cents

I can only speak to the changes that I have seen. The excepted social norm from my grandfathers time, born in the 20s, 20 year navy and WW2 vetto my fathers generation are vast, as is the difference from his to mine. My Daughter and Son have never known acceptance of raciest actions or thought. My grandsons will have a hard time understanding the concept what so ever..

I believe that the answer is to allow the nation to heal, rather than pick at the scab at every turn. beating he drums of division and evoking cultural guilt of sins ten decades old does nothing to aid the melding of peoples.

 

[julius]

What I find ridiculous is that there has been persecution, killing, genocide, and war throughout human history. I think at some point every race and ethnicity has been treated badly, so I don't understand how one race or one group can claim to still understand or warrant reparations for something that happened so long ago.

The Japanese were rounded up during WWII, in America, and imprisoned for no crime other than being Japanese. That wasn't even 100 years ago. There are still people alive who had to endure that.

slightly different scenarios here. While the internment camps were bad, it's not like Japanese people were taken from Japan, sold into slavery, and beaten, dehumanized and racially isolated for generations.

The Irish were treated like shit when they emigrated here. So were the Chinese. Our country created legislation to persecute the Chinese that had come over during the 1800s.

They came here on their free will, weren't slaves, lynched, beaten, hunted, dehumanized and it wasn't made socially acceptable to call them ****** and coon and "boy".

If you go back to Europe, I'm sure virtually every person living in the United States has ancestors who were at some point persecuted because of their race or their religion.

which is related to people here, how?

I just find it ridiculous that anyone living today understands what their ancestors experienced over 100 years ago.

I find it ridiculous that you think that's actually what any of this is about.

Study the history of our country, and how we've treated different races. If you were white, you were accepted FAR sooner than if you weren't.

Hell, want proof? Look no further than the Miss America pageant just last week.

I find it absurd that anyone today is entitled to reparations for something that happened a long time ago. Wars have been fought, land has been won and lost, and races have been enslaved and freed. Humans are evil. They do evil things. Even today, evil is present in the world.

Reparations are a different subject and I think a very very VERY minority of people actually talk about it.

I don't get why people seem to be unable to accept any form of criticism without having to get defensive about things. Especially when, afaik, none of the people who have responded in this thread are black or experience institutional racism in the least.

It's OK to say that it was bad, and our country has had a history of playing favorites with different races. It won't take away anything from you to sit back and say "you know what? I accept that the events of 100 years ago have an impact today".

 

[julius]

Thn could you hae given a serious answerohim, rather than yours? For example you could have explained that in the stste of Oregon until 1927 or so, a person of color couldnot own property, and were encouraged not to reside within the state as a matter of rule.

My two cents

I can only speak to the changes that I have seen. The excepted social norm from my grandfathers time, born in the 20s, 20 year navy and WW2 vetto my fathers generation are vast, as is the difference from his to mine. My Daughter and Son have never known acceptance of raciest actions or thought. My grandsons will have a hard time understanding the concept what so ever..

I believe that the answer is to allow the nation to heal, rather than pick at the scab at every turn. beating he drums of division and evoking cultural guilt of sins ten decades old does nothing to aid the melding of peoples.

again, you guys are confusing micro with macro.

 

[MarAzul]

Thn could you hae given a serious answerohim, rather than yours? For example you could have explained that in the stste of Oregon until 1927 or so, a person of color couldnot own property, and were encouraged not to reside within the state as a matter of rule.

My two cents

I can only speak to the changes that I have seen. The excepted social norm from my grandfathers time, born in the 20s, 20 year navy and WW2 vetto my fathers generation are vast, as is the difference from his to mine. My Daughter and Son have never known acceptance of raciest actions or thought. My grandsons will have a hard time understanding the concept what so ever..

I believe that the answer is to allow the nation to heal, rather than pick at the scab at every turn. beating he drums of division and evoking cultural guilt of sins ten decades old does nothing to aid the melding of peoples.

"pick at the scab" Yes that do seem to be the point.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Thn could you hae given a serious answerohim, rather than yours? For example you could have explained that in the stste of Oregon until 1927 or so, a person of color couldnot own property, and were encouraged not to reside within the state as a matter of rule.

My two cents

I can only speak to the changes that I have seen. The excepted social norm from my grandfathers time, born in the 20s, 20 year navy and WW2 vetto my fathers generation are vast, as is the difference from his to mine. My Daughter and Son have never known acceptance of raciest actions or thought. My grandsons will have a hard time understanding the concept what so ever..

I believe that the answer is to allow the nation to heal, rather than pick at the scab at every turn. beating he drums of division and evoking cultural guilt of sins ten decades old does nothing to aid the melding of peoples.

Yes. There sins are not my sins.

 

[julius]

You guys are either missing the point purposely, or refusing to admit to the bigger point.

Events in our history plays a role in our lives today. The voting rights act, the abolishment of the draft, red lining, slavery and many other things.

It's not about YOU taking credit or blame for the sins of the past, it's accepting that they have wounded people, beyond what you experience or know of in your own life, and it created an atmosphere in our country that still is having an impact to this day.

bringing up your own children, or your grandfather, or trying to act liek this is about "division" and "cultural guilt" pretty much glorifies that you are missing the bigger point.

The psychology of the issue is what is being discussed, not passing blame or trying to divide us.

smfh. It's not a difficult concept people.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Yes. There sins are not my sins.

True. Also true is the old saying that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

When Jews say "never again", they are not trying to ruin your day. That saying is about the future - not just the past.