WOJ: Dame wants the super max extension

[WillG]

I agree with everything John Law has been saying in this thread. Liilard is one of the most over-rated players around.
I've also really disliked watching the team play with Lillard running the team. Slow transitions, no defense - iso ball. Terrible. Not enjoyable to watch.

He's not a 'Superstar', he is an All-star for sure, but go back and watch his 'effort' on defense in the play-offs. Atrocious.
A player that takes 40% of a teams salary should be reserved for generational two-way players (ie. LeBron, Giannis) - they provide defense.
All of this talk about acquiring x player that has to be elite defender because of Lillards defeciencies. How about fixing the root of the problem by getting a star who actually plays defense. A two-way star doesn't need comromises to be made when filling out the rest of the roster because they are a human turnstyle.

(Also, when have you seen a so called 'Superstar' who's abilty declines in the play-offs. And - PLEASE, desist with the Lillard is clutch BS. He's very un-clutch and an average 3pt shooter.)

Loved watching the young guys push the tempo & move the ball around, last year, when Lillardless. Trading Lillard can't come soon enough.

 

[Natebishop3]

I agree with everything John Law has been saying in this thread. Liilard is one of the most over-rated players around.
I've also really disliked watching the team play with Lillard running the team. Slow transitions, no defense - iso ball. Terrible. Not enjoyable to watch.

He's not a 'Superstar', he is an All-star for sure, but go back and watch his 'effort' on defense in the play-offs. Atrocious.
A player that takes 40% of a teams salary should be reserved for generational two-way players (ie. LeBron, Giannis) - they provide defense.
All of this talk about acquiring x player that has to be elite defender because of Lillards defeciencies. How about fixing the root of the problem by getting a star who actually plays defense. A two-way star doesn't need comromises to be made when filling out the rest of the roster because they are a human turnstyle.

(Also, when have you seen a so called 'Superstar' who's abilty declines in the play-offs. And - PLEASE, desist with the Lillard is clutch BS. He's very un-clutch and an average 3pt shooter.)

Loved watching the young guys push the tempo & move the ball around, last year, when Lillardless. Trading Lillard can't come soon enough.

This has to be a troll post.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

This has to be a troll post.

Nah, check his history. Lot's of anti-Lillard posts going back years.

 

[B-Roy]

Thinking the team will never be contenders with Lillard is certainly a hot take, but not something that I would consider to be trolling. There are plenty of people who think that.

 

[TBpup]

Thinking the team will never be contenders with Lillard is certainly a hot take, but not something that I would consider to be trolling. There are plenty of people who think that.

It is what it is. Olshey wasted Dame's best years. Now he will begin to get older, skills will inevitably diminish, but he will cost more and more. We may get bailed out but the Cap going up, but it will go up for everyone else as well. Dame is an incredible talent and has been very clutch at times over the years, but I can understand those that aren't thrilled with his lack of defense and him walking the ball up the court almost all the time while teammates are running. He is almost always the last to cross half-court, unless he is ahead of Nurk....which isn't exactly a high bar.

Maybe that can change at least a little bit this season with a full year under Billups and new emphasis on defense and attacking downhill after a stop. But since we haven't seen that in 10 years, it seems at least reasonable to question if that will ever be the case. No matter how much we like him, how much he has done for the community, players are still measured in large part by post-season success. Dame has had precious little of that.

Walton had Luke and a bunch of role players. Clyde had Buck and a tons of 2nd round picks. By contrast, Dame has had a lot higher Draft selections, whether those worked out or not. Bill certainly made his teammates better and was dominant on both sides of the ball. Clyde was a dominant physical force would affected a game defensively just by his sheer size, strength and quickness. Dame has been very good offensively, but the other side of the ball, his teammates are left covering for him time after time.

That doesn't seem to be trolling, rather just what has been his career so far.

 

[Natebishop3]

Thinking the team will never be contenders with Lillard is certainly a hot take, but not something that I would consider to be trolling. There are plenty of people who think that.

Actually I was specifically looking at the part about Dame not being clutch.

 

[riverman]

This is quite a spin. The reality is that most players the Blazers have tried to sign in free agency while Lillard has been here have flatly said no thanks, or 'Noooooo sir' as Kevin Durant's brother recently commented. Pau Gasol was a glue factory candidate who would have signed anywhere, and he ended up retiring before playing a minute in Portland. It's funny to even mention him as evidence of anything. Carmelo came because the dearth of talent in Portland made him think he could still be a starter here despite his diminished skills. As soon as he was no longer a starter, he was gone like Moses through the corn. I am sure that Nurk and Ant get along great with Lillard, but it isn't like we can credit Dame with bringing them to Portland. Like Grant, Nurk came here via trade, and Ant was drafted. Heck, Ant is probably trying to drum up an offer sheet from another team as we speak, and if the Blazers don't match, he will be gone. It's not like he is taking less to play with Lillard. I suspect Grant also will be shopping around and taking the highest offer after this season. If he pre-emptively agrees to sign for less than market value, then you will have some evidence, but he came here because the Blazers paid multiple draft picks for him, not because of his being enamored with Lillard.

But by all means, let's see how many ring-chasers come to Portland during the upcoming free-agency period. If we get a bunch of talented guys lining up to take less money because they want to play with Lillard, I will happily eat my words.

well you've convinced yourself nobody wants to play here with Dame but we're going to disagree....Grant only wanted to be traded to Portland and Carmelo didn't think he'd start when he came here...he came as a bench player..as I said....what transpired under the Neil Olshey apron is not what we're talking about today..Dame has built a hell of a brand since his rookie years. but I'll send back the same idea to you that you have a hell of a spin to keep that old narrative alive...I don't think Portland is looked at the way you do anymore. Word gets out even from players who've left that they loved playing with the guy...once here..most of them have career years.....Pau Gasol wasn't any different from Chris Kaman....an old vet who might have been able to give you back up minutes and mentor young guys but he couldn't get healthy...he's playing in Spain now. Everyone following the team knows Grant wanted to come here and play with Lillard so the idea that Detroit really wanted that future Bucks pick was not the draw...we got Grant the way NO got CJ....Detroit sent him where he wanted to go. We'll just have to agree to disagree ...new chapter in Portland...don't need to drag all those old narratives into the future is my take. Unnecessary baggage...last season was a major transition for the team and I think a good one. Dame playing with team USA is connected to all that as well.

 

[blazerkor]

Wow! I remember when Roy's game started to break down due to his health and people started to turn on him and call him selfish. Dame's health and game are not diminishing. He's not one to bullshit and he says he's playing the best ball he's ever played. Is it realistic to think that he'll be at that level forever? No. Could he be at that level for the next four years? Yes. It's not likely but it's very possible given his dedication to his body rivaling guys like LeBron, his size, his lack of chronic injuries to joints or back and the fact that he's never relied on his athleticism as much as his timing, ability to shoot and find open teammates. He's never been a good defender but he's never had a coach who really put a lot into that end of the floor, he's also never had a scheme or teammates that could cover for him (I'm not sure that he even has those teammates now). The fact is he has been one of the top five most potent offensive weapons in the game for the five seasons previous to last... he has also stayed with us.

People alluded to the cap explosion that will take place the second year of this rumored extension but if we manage the cap between now and then in the right way, it would allow us to go way into the luxury tax that first year of the extension and then be out of it before the repeater tax would kick in when the cap makes the jump up. This extension would be a gamble on Dame and that has been the one gamble over the past ten years that in my opinion has actually had better than expected returns every time we've made it... it's the other gambles that this organization has double and trippled down on that have let us down.

When comparing the guys that Dame has played with to those who have gone further than Dame it's important to do so accurately. Oh and the implication that Walton made his teammates better than Dame made his is a misnomer when you look at the way guys have fallen off from being mediocre starters with Dame to being end of bench players without him and the allstar and all defensive teams guys made after playing with Bill. So let's look at those supporting casts. Walton had Luke... I don't know if anything else has to be said, he was a multiple time all star even without Walton, he was an allnba selection, an all defensive team selection twice. Dame hasn't played with one player that even comes close to being great and Luke was better than great... and lets not forget the impact one NBA player can have on wins. It wasn't just one all star though Lionell Hollins was also an all star (Dame hasn't played with one besides LaMarcus far before Dame's prime). Hollins was also a two time all defensive selection. Twardzik had previously been an ABA allstar. Gross was an all defensive selection the year after they won the championship. Steele even led the league in steals in '75 and he was the team's seventh man. Dame has played with one guy that has ever been selected to an all defensive team and it was Whiteside, obviously not the year that Dame played with him. Clyde played with Terry (two time allstar), Buck (3 time allstar, 4 time all defensive team), Duck (two time allstar), Cliff (future all star and all defensive selection), Jerome who doesn't have the acolades but most of us know what he did and Ainge (allstar and two time champion) the second time in the finals. The thing about those supporting casts wasn't even the immense difference in talent they had on them compared to what Dame has had to work with but moreso the fit which Dame has always had terrible clunky fit rosters around him. Dame has also had Terry Stotts as his head coach for every meaningful year he's played and I don't think I have to explain the implications of that.

Anyway keep on turning on Dame, it's fucking disgusting to see but keep on doing it and then those of you who I know have integrity will gladly eat crow starting next season and a bunch of you will just disappear. It's a sad discussion being had. I'm not saying there's no merit in discussing if the right move is to move Dame for a haul or try to win a championship with him and keep having only ever played in a Blazers uniform in the NBA... it's the turning on him to make your point or even agreeing with or liking the posts that do... gross!

 

[Natebishop3]

people started to turn on him and call him selfish.

I turned on him because he was selfish. The shit that went down with Andre Miller was inexcusable. Also there was rumblings at the time that he was unhappy because he felt that too much of the offense was going through Oden.

Plus.... you know.... he just completely turned his back on the city once he was gone.

 

[riverman]

It is what it is. Olshey wasted Dame's best years. Now he will begin to get older, skills will inevitably diminish, but he will cost more and more. We may get bailed out but the Cap going up, but it will go up for everyone else as well. Dame is an incredible talent and has been very clutch at times over the years, but I can understand those that aren't thrilled with his lack of defense and him walking the ball up the court almost all the time while teammates are running. He is almost always the last to cross half-court, unless he is ahead of Nurk....which isn't exactly a high bar.

Maybe that can change at least a little bit this season with a full year under Billups and new emphasis on defense and attacking downhill after a stop. But since we haven't seen that in 10 years, it seems at least reasonable to question if that will ever be the case. No matter how much we like him, how much he has done for the community, players are still measured in large part by post-season success. Dame has had precious little of that.

Walton had Luke and a bunch of role players. Clyde had Buck and a tons of 2nd round picks. By contrast, Dame has had a lot higher Draft selections, whether those worked out or not. Bill certainly made his teammates better and was dominant on both sides of the ball. Clyde was a dominant physical force would affected a game defensively just by his sheer size, strength and quickness. Dame has been very good offensively, but the other side of the ball, his teammates are left covering for him time after time.

That doesn't seem to be trolling, rather just what has been his career so far.

Dame's best years are ahead of him....the waste was playing with an injured core the last 5 years...Chauncey was able to convince him to shut it down as well as his Olympic teammates who redommended he get the surgery. Just watch what a healed, rested Dame is going to look like this season with an upgraded starting lineup. He's a winner. He has young talented backups now as well so he won't have to be on the court every second to keep us in games...big difference. ..having a two way bench is going to be a difference maker and extend Dame's career and production

 

[SlyPokerCat]

I turned on him because he was selfish. The shit that went down with Andre Miller was inexcusable. Also there was rumblings at the time that he was unhappy because he felt that too much of the offense was going through Oden.

Plus.... you know.... he just completely turned his back on the city once he was gone.

100%. Maybe @THE HCP has more perspective but from an outside perspective it seemed like Roy was the jerk, not Andre.

 

[Natebishop3]

100%. Maybe @THE HCP has more perspective but from an outside perspective it seemed like Roy was the jerk, not Andre.

It came from Quick, so take it with a grain of salt, but I remember him saying that Roy changed once he became a star. I don't think anyone has ever said anything remotely like that about Dame.

 

[riverman]

100%. Maybe @THE HCP has more perspective but from an outside perspective it seemed like Roy was the jerk, not Andre.

The Roy - Dre feud landed us none other than Raymond Felton......I'll never forgive Roy for chasing Dre out of Portland and then leaving for the Wolves almost immediately afterwards...then never showing his face in Portland again other than one brief visit at a game after he retired from the Wolves.

 

[Natebishop3]

leaving for the Wolves almost immediately afterwards

Technically we cut him, but the rest of your post is spot on.

 

[riverman]

Technically we cut him, but the rest of your post is spot on.

true but Roy medically retired saying he had to choose between playing with his kids and walking or playing basketball...then signed a two year deal with another team.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

The Roy - Dre feud landed us none other than Raymond Felton......I'll never forgive Roy for chasing Dre out of Portland and then leaving for the Wolves almost immediately afterwards...then never showing his face in Portland again other than one brief visit at a game after he retired from the Wolves.

F fake boy Roy. Sellout…

 

[TBpup]

Dame's best years are ahead of him....the waste was playing with an injured core the last 5 years...Chauncey was able to convince him to shut it down as well as his Olympic teammates who redommended he get the surgery. Just watch what a healed, rested Dame is going to look like this season with an upgraded starting lineup. He's a winner. He has young talented backups now as well so he won't have to be on the court every second to keep us in games...big difference. ..having a two way bench is going to be a difference maker and extend Dame's career and production

So Dame wasted 5 years of his own career by not getting surgery? I was willing to blast Olshey for it. It it's Dame's fault, that's a whole other issue.

 

[riverman]

So Dame wasted 5 years of his own career by not getting surgery? I was willing to blast Olshey for it. It it's Dame's fault, that's a whole other issue.

part of it was but then again...Dame hasn't wasted his career...he's lost a year because of playing injured now....so yeah..he had something to do with it getting worse. Today...it's resolved and no longer an issue so look forward to seeing a superstar beast.....I am. Playing in the Olympics actually changed Dame's perspective...watching CJ get traded and understanding it also changed his perspective....last season Dame got immersed in the Joe, Chauncey program and he's lobbied like never before in his career for the team...big change. I like it.

 

[blazerkor]

I turned on him because he was selfish. The shit that went down with Andre Miller was inexcusable. Also there was rumblings at the time that he was unhappy because he felt that too much of the offense was going through Oden.

Plus.... you know.... he just completely turned his back on the city once he was gone.

100%. Maybe @THE HCP has more perspective but from an outside perspective it seemed like Roy was the jerk, not Andre.

Yeah I don't know what it was like on here but I'm pretty sure those were still in my O-Live days and if my memory serves me people there didn't start to call him selfish (whether it's accurate or not) until his knees were going and his game was ineffective which even if he's a dick, is kinda shitty. You turn on a guy for things that you ignored when he was delivering for you because his health fails him. I'm not saying that's everyone but I am saying that's most of people.

The way that applies to Dame is, people are talking shit after they haven't seen him play for a year and I haven't seen these guys before. Both situations (to me) stink of people kicking others while they're down as opposed to having consistent opinions.

 

[SlyPokerCat]

Yeah I don't know what it was like on here but I'm pretty sure those were still in my O-Live days and if my memory serves me people there didn't start to call him selfish (whether it's accurate or not) until his knees were going and his game was ineffective which even if he's a dick, is kinda shitty. You turn on a guy for things that you ignored when he was delivering for you because his health fails him. I'm not saying that's everyone but I am saying that's most of people.

The way that applies to Dame is, people are talking shit after they haven't seen him play for a year and I haven't seen these guys before. Both situations (to me) stink of people kicking others while they're down as opposed to having consistent opinions.

On this forum a lot of people turned on Roy during the Andre Miller stuff. Not necessarily when his knees started to go. Miller was one of the best free agents we have ever signed. You'd hope to think a better leader would have made it work instead of throwing him under the bus like Roy did.

As far as Dame, saying he is 32 and that we aren't a contender isn't really a slight against Dame. He has never been great at defense, but he is a star player.

 

[blazerkor]

So Dame wasted 5 years of his own career by not getting surgery? I was willing to blast Olshey for it. It it's Dame's fault, that's a whole other issue.

It was kind of Dame's fault. He was playing through something that could have been corrected with surgery and likely was holding him back. That being said, the way I understand it is that he didn't get a diagnosis that let him know that it could be corrected with surgery, which is either just a simple miscomunication of symptoms or a failure by our training staff. I think he said it was Jrue at the Olympics who first told him exactly what it was and that he had had the same thing and had surgery in an offseason for it that didn't even really affect his offseason training too much, just gave him some rest time.

So yeah, probably just a thing that happens a lot in medicine where someone has a semi-rare condition that they don't know how to explain perfectly so the doctor doesn't get the right diagnosis or prescribed treatment. Who's to blame for that is up for interpretation but I usually lean towards the medical professional but it's a real sticky situation that happens to a lot of people.

 

[riverman]

Yeah I don't know what it was like on here but I'm pretty sure those were still in my O-Live days and if my memory serves me people there didn't start to call him selfish (whether it's accurate or not) until his knees were going and his game was ineffective which even if he's a dick, is kinda shitty. You turn on a guy for things that you ignored when he was delivering for you because his health fails him. I'm not saying that's everyone but I am saying that's most of people.

The way that applies to Dame is, people are talking shit after they haven't seen him play for a year and I haven't seen these guys before. Both situations (to me) stink of people kicking others while they're down as opposed to having consistent opinions.

I was never down on Roy until he got between Nate ane Andre....and the way he ended here....everyone cheered for Brandon to get past his bone on bone issue but he didn't come clean about it in the end. If he'd retired like he said and not signed with the wolves and stayed aroung the franchise..he'd be loved like Kersey...he didn't. Fans treated Roy really well. That love didn't come back in the end and that's not kicking somone when they're down....Dame is a different story...he doesn't have bum knees. I agree bashing Dame is stupid. Being disappointed in BRoy is not. Paul Allen offered BRoy any job he wanted with the organization before he medically retired..he didn't want to work here. His choice...not the fans

 

[Natebishop3]

Yeah I don't know what it was like on here but I'm pretty sure those were still in my O-Live days and if my memory serves me people there didn't start to call him selfish (whether it's accurate or not) until his knees were going and his game was ineffective which even if he's a dick, is kinda shitty. You turn on a guy for things that you ignored when he was delivering for you because his health fails him. I'm not saying that's everyone but I am saying that's most of people.

The way that applies to Dame is, people are talking shit after they haven't seen him play for a year and I haven't seen these guys before. Both situations (to me) stink of people kicking others while they're down as opposed to having consistent opinions.

Some people respond to loss differently. If Roy's personality and behavior shifted because he was injured and he could see his career ending, it's not our fault if we reacted to his change. I don't think people turned on him because he was hurt. They turned on him because of his behavior. That behavior didn't start until he was hurt.

 

[blazerkor]

I was never down on Roy until he got between Nate ane Andre....and the way he ended here....everyone cheered for Brandon to get past his bone on bone issue but he didn't come clean about it in the end. If he'd retired like he said and not signed with the wolves and stayed aroung the franchise..he'd be loved like Kersey...he didn't. Fans treated Roy really well. That love didn't come back in the end and that's not kicking somone when they're down....Dame is a different story...he doesn't have bum knees. I agree bashing Dame is stupid. Being disappointed in BRoy is not. Paul Allen offered BRoy any job he wanted with the organization before he medically retired..he didn't want to work here. His choice...not the fans

Not all fans treated him really well when his game was faltering that's a mischaracterization but like I said, I may have been on a different forum than you at the time. Sports fans are quick to turn on players, I don't need you to do research to find it... just look at the people that are turning on Dame in here at this very moment. I'm not just talking about the trolls @John Law I'm talking about the people that are always in here and are now agreeing with the trolls and posting shit along the same lines.

 

[Natebishop3]

Not all fans treated him really well when his game was faltering that's a mischaracterization but like I said, I may have been on a different forum than you at the time. Sports fans are quick to turn on players, I don't need you to do research to find it... just look at the people that are turning on Dame in here at this very moment. I'm not just talking about the trolls @John Law I'm talking about the people that are always in here and are now agreeing with the trolls and posting shit along the same lines.

There's a couple people shitting on him, but I think most of us still love the guy and respect him. I'm just shitting on our chances of winning while he's still good.

 

[blazerkor]

Some people respond to loss differently. If Roy's personality and behavior shifted because he was injured and he could see his career ending, it's not our fault if we reacted to his change. I don't think people turned on him because he was hurt. They turned on him because of his behavior. That behavior didn't start until he was hurt.

I guess that's fair enough, maybe I didn't have that perspective at that time. I know I don't share the perspective that Dame is being selfish and detrimental to the team by taking an extension when he feels his best ball is in front of him. I also think it's convenient that some in here are just popping up now talking about how they always thought he was overrated and shit like that. It just so happens that Dame has had one season of being unhealthy that's ending right now and people who will scatter like roaches or miaculpa are kicking him while he's down and to my knowledge isn't acting like an ass but I didn't really get that from Roy either but have read enough about it now to know that it was going on. So hey maybe I'm out of the loop, maybe Dame's a fucking asshole who will never be at the top of the game again or maybe I'm just wrong and he never has been at the top of the game despite you know having multiple seasons where he was number two in the league in points created and has been allnba five times. Like I said though I had the Roy thing a little wrong and maybe I've got the Dame situation misunderstood as well.

I have already said that it's not turning on him if you think he has been and will be great but want to trade him and look to the future... that's valid and although I think it's symptomatic of recency bias it isn't necessarily just because of that.

 

[blazerkor]

There's a couple people shitting on him, but I think most of us still love the guy and respect him. I'm just shitting on our chances of winning while he's still good.

Perfectly valid point of view that may or may not be affected by "out of sight out of mind".

 

[Natebishop3]

I guess that's fair enough, maybe I didn't have that perspective at that time. I know I don't share the perspective that Dame is being selfish and detrimental to the team by taking an extension when he feels his best ball is in front of him. I also think it's convenient that some in here are just popping up now talking about how they always thought he was overrated and shit like that. It just so happens that Dame has had one season of being unhealthy that's ending right now and people who will scatter like roaches or miaculpa are kicking him while he's down and to my knowledge isn't acting like an ass but I didn't really get that from Roy either but have read enough about it now to know that it was going on. So hey maybe I'm out of the loop, maybe Dame's a fucking asshole who will never be at the top of the game again or maybe I'm just wrong and he never has been at the top of the game despite you know having multiple seasons where he was number two in the league in points created and has been allnba five times. Like I said though I had the Roy thing a little wrong and maybe I've got the Dame situation misunderstood as well.

I have already said that it's not turning on him if you think he has been and will be great but want to trade him and look to the future... that's valid and although I think it's symptomatic of recency bias it isn't necessarily just because of that.

Dude there isn't a single player in the history of sports that doesn't have haters. Doesn't matter how good they are.

Jordan had em.
LeBron has em.
Magic... Bird.... Wilt.... it doesn't matter. There will always be haters.

 

[wizenheimer]

I, perhaps, have a different outlook on the team and this year (and not trading Dame now).

I actually enjoyed the tank. I was flat out bored watching same ‘old, same ‘old with the same results; solid mediocrity.

I enjoyed watching the young guys playing with heart and raw abandonment. Sometimes that was painful to watch but it had more of an energy as compared the traditional sameness.

I hope Dame seriously buys into Billups-ball and becomes at least slightly more defensively adept.

I would watch the Grizzlies and wonder why we didn’t play with such enthusiasm.

In some ways I kinda think getting top value for our guys last year was secondary and making the roster more Billups-able was primary.

I want to see what happens when we have everyone (hopefully) bought-in and playing Billups-ball.

Do I expect us to be contenders this year? No.

Do I expect them to be more watchable? Yes.

I am hoping for improvement and refinement as needed.

I hope to see the team playing with refined abandonment as compared to the reckless, playground abandonment we saw at the end of the year.

Go Blazers. Make us proud to be fans. Pedal-to-the-metal-don’t-hit-cruise.

I apologize that I didn't read what you wrote because I got obsessed with which letter you started each sentence with. By the way 9 I's, 2 D's, 1 G

 

[handiman]

Dude there isn't a single player in the history of sports that doesn't have haters. Doesn't matter how good they are.

Jordan had em.
LeBron has em.
Magic... Bird.... Wilt.... it doesn't matter. There will always be haters.

Gretzky? Can anything bad be said about him other than leaving Edmonton after a glorious run? I'm not sure they would even view that as a negative, all things considered.