Would someone explain to me why Oden was so ineffective tonight?

[free_lafrentz]

(shakes head)

Everytime I think the kid is starting to "get it", he regresses. At some point, the excuses have to stop.

He's not even to the all-star break in his rookie season....

The point that you speak of, to me, won't come until 2 years from now. Then, if he still plays like he is now, I can clearly call him a "bust", or to a lesser extent, unworthy of a #1 pick. But lay off the kid for now.

And it's not like he has Steve Nash, CP3, Deron Williams or Jason Kidd feeding him the rock. He has Blake, Bayless, and Sergio. Not exactly the top level guards who see the floor.

I would imagine if we had Kidd, CP3, Nash, Deron, Parker, Billuos, the list goes on....we would see a much improved stat-line for Greg at this point in the season.

I hate to say this, but let it bake; he's a rookie.

 

[Tince]

I love GO and think he'll be great, but to simply say we need to get him the ball more doesn't make any sense to me.

Greg is only a threat when he catches it deep in the post, which is a position he doesn't easily obtain, nor does anyone in the league. When he gets it anywhere outside the block, teams know to just show a double team, then back off because GO is thinking pass first and he'll pick up his dribble and kick out with little advantage being obtained by the Blazers.

Until Greg is able to do anything more than dunk, and make 40% of his hook shots, we can't run our offense through him. I don't understand how the people who complain that Nate's offense is too slow, now want us to feed Greg the ball, which almost always results in a perimeter jump shot near the end of the shot clock.

He'll develop in time...

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I love GO and think he'll be great, but to simply say we need to get him the ball more doesn't make any sense to me.

Greg is only a threat when he catches it deep in the post, which is a position he doesn't easily obtain, nor does anyone in the league. When he gets it anywhere outside the block, teams know to just show a double team, then back off because GO is thinking pass first and he'll pick up his dribble and kick out with little advantage being obtained by the Blazers.

Until Greg is able to do anything more than dunk, and make 40% of his hook shots, we can't run our offense through him. I don't understand how the people who complain that Nate's offense is too slow, now want us to feed Greg the ball, which almost always results in a perimeter jump shot near the end of the shot clock.

He'll develop in time...

Well said

 

[Natebishop3]

He's not even to the all-star break in his rookie season....

The point that you speak of, to me, won't come until 2 years from now. Then, if he still plays like he is now, I can clearly call him a "bust", or to a lesser extent, unworthy of a #1 pick. But lay off the kid for now.

And it's not like he has Steve Nash, CP3, Deron Williams or Jason Kidd feeding him the rock. He has Blake, Bayless, and Sergio. Not exactly the top level guards who see the floor.

I would imagine if we had Kidd, CP3, Nash, Deron, Parker, Billuos, the list goes on....we would see a much improved stat-line for Greg at this point in the season.

I hate to say this, but let it bake; he's a rookie.

I get the feeling that CP3 would have Greg at an All-Star level this season.

 

[Tince]

I get the feeling that CP3 would have Greg at an All-Star level this season.

Easy to say, but we'll never know. I'd love to see GO get his mobility back and move around like Tyson Chandler does. To this point, Greg has struggled to catch ally-oops and rarely rolls hard to the hoop after any screen. I can't imagine the play is designed for a slow half heart roll to the hoop, but it hasn't changed all year, so maybe it is...

 

[Minstrel]

Sometimes it seems like this is the first season of watching basketball for some people. Why is it complicated to understand that rookies are often inconsistent as they get used to the NBA game?

It's like every week some people make that discovery for the first time.

Even great prospects often are inconsistent. James wasn't, but Kobe was. Dwight Howard had an almost identical rookie season to the one Oden is having, and he wasn't coming off an injury.

 

[KingSpeed]

Dwight Howard had an almost identical rookie season to the one Oden is having, and he wasn't coming off an injury.

Not true. DHo averaged 12 pts, 10 rebounds, and 1.7 blocks. If Oden was doing that, I don't think anyone on this board would be complaining. I certainly wouldn't. 12/10/2 is exactly what I want from Oden. But we don't get it. At all. 7.2 rebounds per game? Not even close to Howard.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

No, but Howard played more minutes and his coach didn't have a switching defensive scheme that left him on the perimeter guarding quick veteran guards while recovering from knee surgery.

 

[KingSpeed]

No, but Howard played more minutes and his coach didn't have a switching defensive scheme that left him on the perimeter guarding quick veteran guards while recovering from knee surgery.

Whatever the reasons/excuses may be, Oden is nowhere near what Howard was in his rookie year.

 

[Minstrel]

Not true. DHo averaged 12 pts, 10 rebounds, and 1.7 blocks. If Oden was doing that, I don't think anyone on this board would be complaining. I certainly wouldn't. 12/10/2 is exactly what I want from Oden. But we don't get it. At all. 7.2 rebounds per game? Not even close to Howard.

Oden: 17.6 PER
Howard: 17.2 PER

The main difference is playing time. Some of that is fouls, but McMillan also chooses not to play Oden as much as he could, even though Oden is effective.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Whatever the reasons/excuses may be, Oden is nowhere near what Howard was in his rookie year.

No, but Oden doesn't get the touches nor is in the situation Howard was in. Your refusal to acknowledge that Greg is overcoming many odds and instead refer to those factual odds as excuses is amusing.

 

[BengalDuck]

Not true. DHo averaged 12 pts, 10 rebounds, and 1.7 blocks. If Oden was doing that, I don't think anyone on this board would be complaining. I certainly wouldn't. 12/10/2 is exactly what I want from Oden. But we don't get it. At all. 7.2 rebounds per game? Not even close to Howard.

Howard (per 36 minutes) - 13.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.8 bpg
Oden (per 36 minutes) - 13.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 1.8 bpg





It's become oh so apparent just what the BBF posters mean when they talk down the general Blazer fan group. I can't wait to go through this thread tomorrow and pick out new quotes for my sig. You people are ... basketball fans ....

 

[KingSpeed]

PER means nothing. Oden isn't rebounding and Howard was one of the best rebounders in the league his rookie year. Putting the stats besides and watching the guy, there is clearly a problem. Yes, he does have some good games, but what the hell was he doing out there tonight? Nothing.

 

[Natebishop3]

Whatever the reasons/excuses may be, Oden is nowhere near what Howard was in his rookie year.

Are they excuses or are they facts?

 

[The Sebastian Express]

If PER means nothing then why did you create a thread earlier this month stating that Roy > Kobe based on PER?

 

[KingSpeed]

Howard (per 36 minutes) - 13.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.8 bpg
Oden (per 36 minutes) - 13.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 1.8 bpg





It's become oh so apparent just what the BBF posters mean when they talk down the general Blazer fan group. I can't wait to go through this thread tomorrow and pick out new quotes for my sig. You people are some of the dumbest basketball fans I've ever seen (read).

per 36 stats mean nothing to me. If all Nate had to do was play Oden for 36 minutes and Oden would get 14/11, Nate would do it. Why wouldn't he? But that's not the way it goes. LeBron James scored 20 points in the first quarter tonight, but he didn't get 80 for the game!

 

[BengalDuck]

I don't give a shit about what means something to you. Ydeleted

Fact is, the facts/stats say that if given the same situation, Oden would be producing just about what Howard did his first year in the league.

 

[Minstrel]

PER means nothing.

Feel free to point out the flaws in PER that lead you to believe it communicates nothing useful.

Oden isn't rebounding and Howard was one of the best rebounders in the league his rookie year.

When he's on the floor, Oden has been one of the best rebounders in the league.

Putting the stats besides and watching the guy, there is clearly a problem.

This is ironic coming from the poster who based his claim that Oden hasn't improved on double-doubles. Observationally, it's plain as day that Oden has improved from the beginning of his season.

 

[KingSpeed]

If PER means nothing then why did you create a thread earlier this month stating that Roy > Kobe based on PER?

Cuz I was excited about how highly ranked Roy is. But in the end, all I care about is what I see happening on the court. I'm happy with what I see Roy doing on the court. I'm not happy with what I'm seeing from Greg. And I don't see how you could be either. One good point is that he's not getting stripped as much as he was when the season began. I'll give him that. But otherwise, he's gotten worse, especially defensively.

 

[Natebishop3]

Feel free to point out the flaws in PER that lead you to believe it communicates nothing useful.



When he's on the floor, Oden has been one of the best rebounders in the league.



This is ironic coming from the poster who based his claim that Oden hasn't improved on double-doubles. Observationally, it's plain as day that Oden has improved from the beginning of his season.

And the poster that bases so many of his arguments about Outlaw on stats.

 

[KingSpeed]

When he's on the floor, Oden has been one of the best rebounders in the league.
.

Maybe. He has too many games where he only grabs 1-4 rebounds in double figure minutes for my taste. If playing Oden more meant that he would get more rebounds, then by all means play him more. But that's not the case. I mean, in his very first game, he grabbed 5 rebounds against the Lakers and then got hurt. But just cuz he got 5 rebounds in the first quarter doesn't mean he would've grabbed 20 rebounds that game. That rebound rate stat does not warm my heart.

 

[Minstrel]

Maybe. He has too many games where he only grabs 1-4 rebounds in double figure minutes for my taste.

Sure, and he's also had games where he's grabbed 14 rebounds in 25-30 minutes. He's a rookie. He's going to be inconsistent. If he's having this sort of inconsistency in a year or two, panic.

 

[KingSpeed]

And the poster that bases so many of his arguments about Outlaw on stats.

Not really. Outlaw's stats aren't flashy. His scoring is down from last season. But he has an ability to get his own shots and to make shots under pressure situations and I love that about him. One of his best games was when Roy scored 52. I don't remember how many points Outlaw scored but he some big big shots that took the pressure off of Roy and we wouldn't have won if Outlaw hadn't hit those shots.

 

[KingSpeed]

Sure, and he's also had games where he's grabbed 14 rebounds in 25-30 minutes. He's a rookie. He's going to be inconsistent. If he's having this sort of inconsistency in a year or two, panic.

Okay. But why is he inconsistent? Just because he's a rookie? I don't see why rebounding should be inconsistent for a big strong 7 footer. That's why Howard was immediately one of the league leaders in rebounding when he joined the league.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Not really. Outlaw's stats aren't flashy. His scoring is down from last season. But he has an ability to get his own shots and to make shots under pressure situations and I love that about him. One of his best games was when Roy scored 52. I don't remember how many points Outlaw scored but he some big big shots that took the pressure off of Roy and we wouldn't have won if Outlaw hadn't hit those shots.

Why don't you care when Outlaw is in a position to grab a rebound because Greg is getting boxed out by two guys but Outlaw lets a third guy run around him and grab it as he stands there flat-footed?

 

[Minstrel]

Okay. But why is he inconsistent? Just because he's a rookie? I don't see why rebounding should be inconsistent for a big strong 7 footer.

Because he's inexperienced and because he's recovering his explosiveness from an injury.

That's why Howard was immediately one of the league leaders in rebounding when he joined the league.

Oden has been an even better rebounder on a per-minute basis. McMillan is limiting his minutes (rightly or wrongly...I think wrongly) more than I imagine he would if this team were the talentless void that was the Magic when Howard was drafted. The Magic had nothing to lose playing Howard as much as possible. McMillan is trying to manage a winning team and has (again, incorrectly in my opinion) decided that the team is best of with Oden playing fewer minutes. If Oden were playing as much as possible, his per-game rebounding numbers would look much better.

 

[MARIS61]

Fear of fouling?

Bad coaching?

Out of shape?

Offseason surgery?

Youth?

I think it comes down to bad coaching.

Since Dunleavy left, our bigs have always gotten the short straw. We haven't had a coach who understands the big man's game, nor have we had effective assistants in this field.

With a whole year off the court Oden should have come in with a wealth of the mental side of the game if anyone had been bothering to talk ball with him while he lifted weights all day, but most of all he looks like he has no idea what he should be doing, where he should be standing, who he should be guarding...

Coaching staff dropped the ball.

 

[KingSpeed]

No one has answered the question that is asked in this thread. What specifically happened tonight that rendered him so ineffective? And why don't we get any shotblocking from him anymore? He had 14 in his first 5 games back from the injury. Only 5 in the last 5. The foul trouble has rendered him useless on D. He's always trying to get out of the way of the opposition while they just go ahead and score on us.

 

[KingSpeed]

I think it comes down to bad coaching.

Since Dunleavy left, our bigs have always gotten the short straw. We haven't had a coach who understands the big man's game, nor have we had effective assistants in this field.

With a whole year off the court Oden should have come in with a wealth of the mental side of the game if anyone had been bothering to talk ball with him while he lifted weights all day, but most of all he looks like he has no idea what he should be doing, where he should be standing, who he should be guarding...

Coaching staff dropped the ball.

Thank you! You answered my question. I think you're probably right. WHO is working with Greg? Who is addressing his issues and helping him improve??

 

[The Sebastian Express]

No one has answered the question that is asked in this thread. What specifically happened tonight that rendered him so ineffective? And why don't we get any shotblocking from him anymore? He had 14 in his first 5 games back from the injury. Only 5 in the last 5. The foul trouble has rendered him useless on D. He's always trying to get out of the way of the opposition while they just go ahead and score on us.

We don't get shot blocking from him because we switch on the pick and roll and he has to be on the perimeter. McMillan has specifically said they don't have Greg fall back like Shaq used to on pick and rolls because they want him to not have this 'weakness' and thus he doesn't have the opportunity to get blocks on the driving guard.

There is also the possibility that when he isn't being switched on the pick and roll he doesn't come over from the weak side to provide help defense because when Greg often goes up for the block there is rarely someone covering his guy to make sure they don't get the rebound. This is actually a big problem that also happens to Joel and Joel yells at the guards for it sometimes. If this is the case I imagine it is Nate telling him to stick with his man to secure the rebound instead of going for the block.

Greg's best opportunities for blocks right now are straight up blocks on man to man defense - sometimes he gets them and sometimes he gets called for the foul. In that situation it is a toss up at this point.