Would someone explain to me why Oden was so ineffective tonight?

[KingSpeed]

We don't get shot blocking from him because we switch on the pick and roll and he has to be on the perimeter. McMillan has specifically said they don't have Greg fall back like Shaq used to on pick and rolls because they want him to not have this 'weakness' and thus he doesn't have the opportunity to get blocks on the driving guard.

There is also the possibility that when he isn't being switched on the pick and roll he doesn't come over from the weak side to provide help defense because when Greg often goes up for the block there is rarely someone covering his guy to make sure they don't get the rebound. This is actually a big problem that also happens to Joel and Joel yells at the guards for it sometimes. If this is the case I imagine it is Nate telling him to stick with his man to secure the rebound instead of going for the block.

Greg's best opportunities for blocks right now are straight up blocks on man to man defense - sometimes he gets them and sometimes he gets called for the foul. In that situation it is a toss up at this point.

But why did he used to get blocked shots and now doesn't? And why is our defense designed so that Greg can't block shots? That was supposed to be one of his strengths!

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Thank you! You answered my question. I think you're probably right. WHO is working with Greg? Who is addressing his issues and helping him improve??

This is an interesting point. There is a poster on realgm who is a New Orleans fan who is an objective Greg Oden fan. He went to the New Orleans game and came back and gave us a report. He said he was befuddled at our using of Greg Oden (not establishing him in the post, completely missing him when he was wide open, etc) and also at our coaches. He said when Greg would get pulled the most he would get was maybe a slight pat on the butt. None of the assistants go over to him and talk to him to try to teach him during the game to point out how he should be adjusting. We have three assistant coaches and not one is going over to help him adjust during the game or point things out to him?

Perhaps with Bill Bayno back Greg will get some individual help in practice.

 

[KingSpeed]

also- answer this- How come Joel gets 3 blocked shots tonight but Greg doesn't? They're playing the same system, right?

 

[The Sebastian Express]

But why did he used to get blocked shots and now doesn't? And why is our defense designed so that Greg can't block shots? That was supposed to be one of his strengths!

At the start of the year he was allowed to go over on weak-side defense help. One of my buddies started noticing that after that first week or two back Greg started to look hesitant about going over and actually seemed to be stopping himself - as if he has been coached not to do that right now.

This has been a problem with me for pretty much the whole year. We're switching on pick and rolls and leaving Greg out on the perimeter helping take away two of his strengths (in addition to highlighting his still recovering quickness and rookieness) which are of course rebounding and blocking.

 

[KingSpeed]

At the start of the year he was allowed to go over on weak-side defense help. One of my buddies started noticing that after that first week or two back Greg started to look hesitant about going over and actually seemed to be stopping himself - as if he has been coached not to do that right now.

This has been a problem with me for pretty much the whole year. We're switching on pick and rolls and leaving Greg out on the perimeter helping take away two of his strengths (in addition to highlighting his still recovering quickness and rookieness) which are of course rebounding and blocking.

Yea, it's ridiculous.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

also- answer this- How come Joel gets 3 blocked shots tonight but Greg doesn't? They're playing the same system, right?

I only saw one of Joel's blocks - that was the monster block on the Bass attempted throw down. Greg could have made that block too as it was right in the paint. The question is whether he'd get the same respect as Joel got and let it be a block or if he'd get a phantom whistle (he does get fouls for things other players get away with which I guess is the tough life of rookies). Greg has blocked shots like that before.

I did not see Joel's other two blocks.

 

[KingSpeed]

What do you think Greg's ceiling is? What can we ultimately expect?

 

[The Sebastian Express]

Depends on who the coach is. A coach who can effectively utilize a big man in addition to teaching his players how to pass him the ball in the post? 20-24 with 12-14 rebounds on 55-57% shooting and some assists (this depends on if we have cutters). It would take a couple years but he'd get there.

With a coach like Nate? 15-11.

 

[free_lafrentz]

Howard (per 36 minutes) - 13.2 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 apg, 1.8 bpg
Oden (per 36 minutes) - 13.8 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 1.0 1.8 bpg





It's become oh so apparent just what the BBF posters mean when they talk down the general Blazer fan group. I can't wait to go through this thread tomorrow and pick out new quotes for my sig. You people are ... basketball fans ...

Props for this. You wouldn't believe how many knuckleheaded blazer fans there are in oregon. All they do is bitch and moan about the team and never sit back and enjoy what is in front of their face.

 

[Nikolokolus]

PER means nothing. Oden isn't rebounding and Howard was one of the best rebounders in the league his rookie year. Putting the stats besides and watching the guy, there is clearly a problem. Yes, he does have some good games, but what the hell was he doing out there tonight? Nothing.

what a load of horseshit. stop focusing on rebounds per game and look at rebound rate, furthermore PER actually means a helluva lot more than simple per game stats, especially when we're talking about a player that is mostly facing frontline talent and not just bench players.

I'm tempted to write "learn the game, then post" or "checkmate" ... but I'm too mature for that ...

 

[rocketeer]

That rebound rate stat does not warm my heart.

rebound rate just tells you the percentage of rebounds the player gets when they are on the floor. it says that when oden is on the floor, he's one of the 10 best rebounders in the league. i don't understand what you find wrong with that stat.

and it's possible that oden looks worse in your mind because the guy who generally replaces him(joel) leads the league in rebound rate. so while not as good as his replacement at rebounding, oden still has been a very good rebounder this year.

 

[blue32]

Can we merge this thread with the other train-wreck thread about Oden, our other BP poster made?

 

[Tortimer]

At least combine these two fucking threads about Oden. I already posted my thoughts in the other thread and I'm not going to post it again. I have more but it isn't worth my time because it seems the people that post this stuff would never learn anyway. What the fuck is wrong with some of you idiots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[alex42083]

Man.. calm the F down people. Greg is going to be fine. No one's going to trade him, this team would look even more stupid if they sent him to the D league.
The key is not getting too low on his bad games, and not getting too high when he goes for double doubles, which he leads the team in this season btw.
It's just part of the growing pains.

 

[PapaG]

Oden: 17.6 PER
Howard: 17.2 PER

The main difference is playing time. Some of that is fouls, but McMillan also chooses not to play Oden as much as he could, even though Oden is effective.

This is much more a problem with using PER as a comparative tool than it is with Dwight Howard's game.

 

[alex42083]

What do you think Greg's ceiling is? What can we ultimately expect?

The sky's the limit for him. Just like every other young guy we've got, consistency is one of the big issues right now. I fully expect G.O. to be a force in this league over the next decade, hopefully fans don't start driving him out of town.

These things such as continuing to call him a bust all the time don't help. The guy knows the perception of him out there. G.O. is not an idiot oblivious to the internet or friends who probably read the internet, just like Travis made the assertion that he thinks a lot of Blazer fans hate him.

 

[MrJayremmie]

I think by the 2nd half of next year, Greg will be averaging about 17 and 12, which is really nice.

 

[PapaG]

The sky's the limit for him. Just like every other young guy we've got, consistency is one of the big issues right now. I fully expect G.O. to be a force in this league over the next decade, hopefully fans don't start driving him out of town.

These things such as continuing to call him a bust all the time don't help. The guy knows the perception of him out there. G.O. is not an idiot oblivious to the internet or friends who probably read the internet, just like Travis made the assertion that he thinks a lot of Blazer fans hate him.

I've never called Oden a bust and it's obvious he has a great future, but I get a bit frustrated when tiny players like JJ Barrea end up with 1 less rebound than Oden in 7 less minutes of playing time. Someone on the team needs to light a fire under Oden, get in his face, do SOMETHING to get him at least active and motivated every night.

 

[blue32]

please merge these god damned threads.

 

[gatorpops]

Oden: 17.6 PER
Howard: 17.2 PER

The main difference is playing time. Some of that is fouls, but McMillan also chooses not to play Oden as much as he could, even though Oden is effective.

Something that bothers me, we tend compare the stats of another player to Oden when he only has the first-half of his rookie season to compare to other players full season stats. Doesn't that seem a little odd???? Did the other player not improve during his first season at all?

g

 

[gatorpops]

PER means nothing. Oden isn't rebounding and Howard was one of the best rebounders in the league his rookie year. Putting the stats besides and watching the guy, there is clearly a problem. Yes, he does have some good games, but what the hell was he doing out there tonight? Nothing.

How many years of college did Howard have? Seems like apples and oranges to me.

g

 

[gatorpops]

Cuz I was excited about how highly ranked Roy is. But in the end, all I care about is what I see happening on the court. I'm happy with what I see Roy doing on the court. I'm not happy with what I'm seeing from Greg. And I don't see how you could be either. One good point is that he's not getting stripped as much as he was when the season began. I'll give him that. But otherwise, he's gotten worse, especially defensively.

Could it be that he is afraid of getting fouls so is less intense?? Could it be that he gets less rebounds because the refs have taken away any physical play from him??? Could it be he is trying to figure out just what the refs will allow on his end of the court? Could it be that his coaches (read Nate and Marice) are telling him to stay out of foul trouble and he is trying figure out this game called NBA inconsistency of reffing? Just asking. I did not get to see the game last night so can't say in this game but in past games recently he seems to get emotionally deflated when he gets some quick calls against him. Can't say i blame him, especially as a very young 21 year old.

 

[mook]

Almost exactly two years ago we were having almost this exact same conversation about another big man, LaMarcus Aldridge. For some reason McMillan had virtually benched him for an entire month in favor of "Former All Star" Jamal Magloire. It was one of those head-scratching moves that nobody has ever been able to explain to me. And when Aldridge was getting minutes, we didn't run plays for him. It worked out ok in the end, in that Aldridge has developed into one of the best young power forwards in the game, but how Aldridge was often used in his rookie year is still impossible to justify.

Similarly, we now have one of the most coveted young centers in the league, and McMillan only plays him for half a game, and even then only seems to acknowledge his existence on the defensive end.

It was the same way back in the day when Zach Randolph was first coming up, and Mo Cheeks wouldn't run any plays for him or give him big minutes (until we'd lost hope in that Dallas playoff series). You can even go back further to Jermaine O'Neal under Dunleavy (although I never thought Jermaine was going to be so good after we traded him.)

We've always seemed to have problems finding minutes and offensive plays for quality young big men. The coaches and media always say that these young studs need to pay their dues and figure out how to play at the NBA level. But really I think a big part of the transition is the rest of the team.

A guard or SF can force his way into dominating on offense by just taking more shots, no matter what the coach wants. If the guard does it well, the coach learns to adapt his system. A power forward or center is only going to be as successful on offense as his coach and teammates allow him to be, because they can't feed themselves the ball.

The big problem right now is that when Roy or Aldridge or Outlaw has the ball, they think they are a better focus for the offense than Oden. It just isn't so. When the coach and his teammates finally figure out that most half court possessions should go through Oden, everybody will say that Oden suddenly "Gets it" and is finally living up to his potential.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Maybe his dumbass coach could play him more than 21 minutes with only 2 fouls?

Maybe his dumbass coach could start drawing up a few plays to get him involved early.

 

[Boise Blazer]

I dont think anyone can realistically (and I use that term with a smile on my face) expect us to Oden as focal point of the offense with all the talent on this team but 5 touches a game for Oden just doesnt make any sense. Especially when the player(s) guarding him are not legit centers (ie Dirk AND Dirk was in foul trouble! Come on!) I could even live with 10 LEGIT touches a game for him.

 

[gatorpops]

rebound rate just tells you the percentage of rebounds the player gets when they are on the floor. it says that when oden is on the floor, he's one of the 10 best rebounders in the league. i don't understand what you find wrong with that stat.

and it's possible that oden looks worse in your mind because the guy who generally replaces him(joel) leads the league in rebound rate. so while not as good as his replacement at rebounding, oden still has been a very good rebounder this year.

To add to this, since we are then comparing Greg to Joel, lets compared Greg to Joel's first year or when he was just turned 21.

 

[blue32]

Maybe his dumbass coach could play him more than 21 minutes with only 2 fouls?

Maybe his dumbass coach could start drawing up a few plays to get him involved early.

 

[gatorpops]

Almost exactly two years ago we were having almost this exact same conversation about another big man, LaMarcus Aldridge. For some reason McMillan had virtually benched him for an entire month in favor of "Former All Star" Jamal Magloire. It was one of those head-scratching moves that nobody has ever been able to explain to me. And when Aldridge was getting minutes, we didn't run plays for him. It worked out ok in the end, in that Aldridge has developed into one of the best young power forwards in the game, but how Aldridge was often used in his rookie year is still impossible to justify.

Similarly, we now have one of the most coveted young centers in the league, and McMillan only plays him for half a game, and even then only seems to acknowledge his existence on the defensive end.

It was the same way back in the day when Zach Randolph was first coming up, and Mo Cheeks wouldn't run any plays for him or give him big minutes (until we'd lost hope in that Dallas playoff series). You can even go back further to Jermaine O'Neal under Dunleavy (although I never thought Jermaine was going to be so good after we traded him.)

We've always seemed to have problems finding minutes and offensive plays for quality young big men. The coaches and media always say that these young studs need to pay their dues and figure out how to play at the NBA level. But really I think a big part of the transition is the rest of the team.

A guard or SF can force his way into dominating on offense by just taking more shots, no matter what the coach wants. If the guard does it well, the coach learns to adapt his system. A power forward or center is only going to be as successful on offense as his coach and teammates allow him to be, because they can't feed themselves the ball.

The big problem right now is that when Roy or Aldridge or Outlaw has the ball, they think they are a better focus for the offense than Oden. It just isn't so. When the coach and his teammates finally figure out that most half court possessions should go through Oden, everybody will say that Oden suddenly "Gets it" and is finally living up to his potential.

Great post! In defense of Nate, he wants to win enough games to get into the playoffs or the fans are going to be a little disgruntled. However it looks to me like we can do both if we do what you say.

 

[hasoos]

Almost exactly two years ago we were having almost this exact same conversation about another big man, LaMarcus Aldridge. For some reason McMillan had virtually benched him for an entire month in favor of "Former All Star" Jamal Magloire. It was one of those head-scratching moves that nobody has ever been able to explain to me. And when Aldridge was getting minutes, we didn't run plays for him. It worked out ok in the end, in that Aldridge has developed into one of the best young power forwards in the game, but how Aldridge was often used in his rookie year is still impossible to justify.

Similarly, we now have one of the most coveted young centers in the league, and McMillan only plays him for half a game, and even then only seems to acknowledge his existence on the defensive end.

It was the same way back in the day when Zach Randolph was first coming up, and Mo Cheeks wouldn't run any plays for him or give him big minutes (until we'd lost hope in that Dallas playoff series). You can even go back further to Jermaine O'Neal under Dunleavy (although I never thought Jermaine was going to be so good after we traded him.)

We've always seemed to have problems finding minutes and offensive plays for quality young big men. The coaches and media always say that these young studs need to pay their dues and figure out how to play at the NBA level. But really I think a big part of the transition is the rest of the team.

A guard or SF can force his way into dominating on offense by just taking more shots, no matter what the coach wants. If the guard does it well, the coach learns to adapt his system. A power forward or center is only going to be as successful on offense as his coach and teammates allow him to be, because they can't feed themselves the ball.

The big problem right now is that when Roy or Aldridge or Outlaw has the ball, they think they are a better focus for the offense than Oden. It just isn't so. When the coach and his teammates finally figure out that most half court possessions should go through Oden, everybody will say that Oden suddenly "Gets it" and is finally living up to his potential.

I do not agree. Many of the players who are not passing the ball are not one of the big 3, and really IMO, have no right denying Oden the ball. I have seen Batum multiple times not throw Greg the ball when he reposts. I have even seen every single one of the PG look right at him when he has his guy sealed, and not throw him the ball. There has been like 1 lob to him per 3 games. It should be multiple lobs to him, per game. Then as for Nate, you can look at it in many ways, but the way I tend to look at it is, that Nate has not learned from his mistakes.

The teams strength is the front line is it not? If you don't use it, you lose it. If Greg ends up unhappy about how he is fitting in, and how he is being used, we have already had one year of his contract blown on him recovering from knee injury. We don't have the full amount of time for a rookie contract to make him feel like he fits in. Make it happen. Now.

Or maybe in a year or so, Greg decides he doesn't want to be here anymore.

 

[Minstrel]

This is much more a problem with using PER as a comparative tool than it is with Dwight Howard's game.

How so? I don't think PER is saying anything controversial there. Observationally, Howard looked raw and inconsistent as a rookie. He played more minutes than Greg (on a terrible team) but outside of that, I don't think Howard looked more impressive than Oden as a rookie, despite the fact that Howard hadn't just missed a year of basketball due to an injury.