Would you trade Aldridge for Harden + Ibaka + Perkins?

[PapaG]

Franchise player on a good team, or a bad team? Big difference.

I think you're selling Harden short. He's got star written all over him, he's just stuck behind Durant and Westbrook for the limelight. He reminds me of a young Manu with a better jumper and he's only 22.

Manu was never a franchise player. What's your point?

 

[MickZagger]

Manu was never a franchise player. What's your point?

Neither is Aldridge.

Take a peep at Manu's advanced statistics.

 

[Rhal]

I am not going to bother with the math, but I know that this is not true.

Well, maybe if they had Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Ibaka on deals and dumped every other player who refused to work for minimum salary deals. Then, yeah they could stay under the lux tax. But, then again, that team would get booted in the playoffs every year.

For the sake of not knowing next years cap we will give Hardin the same max westbrook got because he signed the deal before his second all-star appearance so its not eligible for the 30% increase.
2013
KD: 17,832627
Westbrook: 15599325
Harden: 14511000
Total 47942952
2014
KD: 18995624
Westbrook: 16687650
Harden: 15599325
Total: 51282599
2015
KD: 20158622
westbrook: 17775975
Harden: 16687650
Total: 54622247

That is huge money in just them. You would have 15mill to fill 9 more spots without paying lux tax in 2015. The new lux tax is brutal, for every 5 miill in lux tax you go into a new bracket
0-5: 1.00
5.1-10: 1.50
10.1-15: 1.75
15.1-20: 2.50
If you have paid lux tax 4 out of the last 5 years those each go up by 1.00.

No team can ignore the new tax rules, they are just to steep. Look at the lakers salary this year 86,043,603, 16 mill over the tax so that puts them at 2.50 for ever dollar over or 40 million owed, if we take into account the fact they paid 4 out of 5 years it adds a dollar to the 2.5 so its 56 million owed.
everyone has a clean slate tell next year.

 

[RoyToy]

There are only so many franchise players in the league. They're the true #1's/superstars

Probably less than 10 of them

 

[Ed O]

You are ignoring the value of roles. And right now, Harden and Ibaka are role players and LaMarcus is a franchise player.

Aldridge really isn't much of a franchise player, I don't think. He's the team's best player but he's not exactly an MVP candidate.

But I don't think that roles really matter when you're making trades. All that matter is whether a player can play and his potential to be able to do so in the future.

Harden and Ibaka are each four years younger than Aldridge is, and at least one of them should turn out to be as good as LaMarcus is right now.

Ed O.

 

[illmatic99]

Manu, NOT a franchise player?

I dare you to go say that on a Spurs forum.

 

[B-Roy]

Aldridge really isn't much of a franchise player, I don't think. He's the team's best player but he's not exactly an MVP candidate.

But I don't think that roles really matter when you're making trades. All that matter is whether a player can play and his potential to be able to do so in the future.

Harden and Ibaka are each four years younger than Aldridge is, and at least one of them should turn out to be as good as LaMarcus is right now.

Ed O.

You think Ibaka has a chance of turning out as good as Aldridge? Uh....

 

[3RA1N1AC]

No team can ignore the new tax rules, they are just to steep. Look at the lakers salary this year 86,043,603, 16 mill over the tax so that puts them at 2.50 for ever dollar over or 40 million owed, if we take into account the fact they paid 4 out of 5 years it adds a dollar to the 2.5 so its 56 million owed.
everyone has a clean slate tell next year.

lakers make 200 million a year just from tv rights, prolly another 100 million from tickets, and then sponsors/licensing... they can afford it, and then some

 

[PapaG]

Neither is Aldridge.

Take a peep at Manu's advanced statistics.

Yeah, LMA is a franchise player and a number one option. He's not a championship franchise player, though. Neither is Kevin Love, who is also a franchise player, just not a title-winning franchise payer. James Harden has never been more than a 3rd option on his team, or averaged more than 17ppg.

Talk about overvaluing a player.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Yeah, LMA is a franchise player and a number one option. He's not a championship franchise player, though. Neither is Kevin Love, who is also a franchise player, just not a title-winning franchise payer. James Harden has never been more than a 3rd option on his team, or averaged more than 17ppg.

Talk about overvaluing a player.

James Harden is Joe Johnson. He will leave the Thunder, go be "the man" somewhere else, earn multiple all-star-game nods, and never win anything.

 

[RoyToy]

Harden >>> Joe Johnson

 

[RR7]

you say never been as if he has been around forever.

 

[B-Roy]

James Harden has never been more than a 3rd option on his team, or averaged more than 17ppg.

Talk about overvaluing a player.

He's also only 22 years old.

Talk about jumping the gun...

 

[PapaG]

He's also only 22 years old.

Talk about jumping the gun...

Harden had 9 points and 5 fouls in 30 minutes tonight. What about him says "franchise player" to anyone?

LMA went for 25/12/4 with almost no help.

 

[RoyToy]

Harden had 9 points and 5 fouls in 30 minutes tonight. What about him says "franchise player" to anyone?

I'm going to use these stats because I know you hold them in high regard.

He has as 21.4 PER with a 21.6% USG%.

 

[RR7]

Well, let's make a judgment only on tonights game. Lol

 

[MickZagger]

Well, let's make a judgment only on tonights game. Lol

lol

 

[3RA1N1AC]

babbitt shot 80% from 3 last night, first ballot hall of famer

 

[B-Roy]

Well, let's make a judgment only on tonights game. Lol

Good idea.

 

[Elton]

LOL at Perkins.

Another in a LONG LONG line of stiff centers who is cruising through his big contract after busting his butt and looking kinda good for a time. Dude fucking sucks now.

Amen! I can't even stand watchin' that guy run down the court, arms swingin' around and all.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Here's an interesting stat about Harden:

120: Entering Thursday's play, Oklahoma City's James Harden had attempted 120 free throws in the fourth quarter this season, second in the league behind only Dwight Howard's 144 such attempts for Orlando. Minnesota's Kevin Love is third with 117.

 

[MarAzul]

Hell no. I want to get some help so Lamacus and friends can kick their can.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Fuel to the fire from David Aldridge:

Harden or Ibaka: who ya got?

The Thunder -- at least until this week, when it lost three straight games for the first time this season -- have been on a roll. Oklahoma City has had one of the top records in the league all year; it has two superstars in Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, who are now both under long-term extensions with no out clauses through at least 2016; it has a great management team led by GM Sam Presti, a solid coach in Scott Brooks and a loyal, passionate fan base. OKC has become the model franchise.

But, is there a reckoning on the horizon?

After committing the maximum to Westbrook, likely $80 million over five years beginning next season, on top of the $85 million already committed to Durant through the 2015-16 season, the Thunder are putting some serious money on the table in future years. And with owner Clay Bennett historically unwilling to go anywhere near the tax threshold, OKC may have room for only one more superstar salary to dovetail with Durant and Westbrook, along with fill-in players.

Hence, a potential problem with James Harden, the Thunder's outstanding sixth man, and Serge Ibaka, OKC's uber-athletic four. They may not be "superstars," but they are among the league's premier players at their respective positions.

Harden is a shoo-in for the league's Sixth Man award, averaging 16.7 points per game in just under 32 minutes off the bench. On just about any other team, Harden would be a starter at small forward and a perennial All-Star candidate. But in Oklahoma City, he plays behind Durant, and it makes more sense for him to come off the bench, where his scoring punch and, more importantly, his near-impeccable passing help the Thunder maintain half-court continuity throughout the game.

Then there's Ibaka, who leads the league in blocked shots (3.5 per game) and is a scourge to opponents who want to drive the OKC paint. He is 6-foot-10, 22 years old, jumps out of the building and has shown improving offensive skills. With Kendrick Perkins swapping paint with opposing bigs in the middle, Ibaka has been able to play his natural power forward position during the last year, and on just about any other team, Ibaka would be the up-and-coming star. In Oklahoma City, he's the fourth option.

They are both keepers, key cogs to a championship team. But how can you pay them both while paying top dollars to Durant and Westbrook?

The good news for OKC is that Presti has a little time. Harden and Ibaka are both still on their rookie deals, which are paying $4.6 million and $1.28 million, respectively. Neither can become an unrestricted free agent until the summer of 2013. And Presti has maneuvered his cap brilliantly in the last couple of years, giving Perkins and Nick Collison contract extensions that decrease in salary in future years, giving the Thunder some breathing room down the road.

Presti gave each player a signing bonus up front, using existing cap space. So Collison made $13.2 million last season, but only makes $3.2 million this season, then $2.9 million, $2.58 million and $2.24 million in 2014-15. And Perkins doesn't have huge increases during four-year, $33 million extension that kicked in this season, with salaries of $7.3 million, $8 million, $8.7 million and $9.4 million.

If Presti can somehow convince one of them to take less than what they'd likely get on the market, he still could pull this off. But we play devil's advocate here at the Tip, and so, the question: If you could only keep one of them, which would you keep, and why?

We sent out feelers to 24 of the other 29 teams in the league, also asking a couple of former coaches and executives their learned opinions. Of those who responded, seven picked Harden outright. Six picked Ibaka outright. And another six either couldn't decided or wanted more time to think about it.

The pro-Harden supporters cited his versatility and scoring ability.

"Keep Harden," wrote a Western Conference personnel man. "Hard to find (a) great scorer and facilitator. They think they can keep both???"

"Harden," said a Western Conference executive. "He's a top 3 or 4 small forward in (the) league. Does it all. Very good."

"I would keep Harden," wrote a Western Conference assistant GM. "He can play two positions and will be an all star."

"Harden," wrote a longtime team executive, "because he is a real top line player along with Durant and Westbrook. Ibaka is a solid big, so I would like to keep him too but if I had to choose I would (k)eep Harden and look elsewhere for a big."

"Tough one," wrote a current head coach. "Nine times out of 10 I would side with size. This case I would side with (H)arden. He's an all-star. He does for OKC what (Manu) Ginobili does for the Spurs."

Some folks wanted a Solomonic solution.

"Can't I have both!!," wrote a former NBA coach. "I'd pull a Pat Riley and do my best selling job a la Mike Miller and convince one or both to take a little less for the love of OKC and a Championship!!"

Wrote a Western Conference GM: "I can't make up my mind. Both so valuable. So good. So effective. My call is they will go into the (luxury) tax. If I was to pick today, I would pick Harden."

Another team VP also advocated keeping both, saying it was up to the Thunder's ownership to do whatever it took to keep the team together. "I wouldn't let the (organization) not keep both," he wrote.

Ibaka's supporters were just as sold on him.

"Ibaka," wrote a Western Conference GM. "Harder to replace."

"Ibaka," wrote a veteran assistant coach, "because I think losing him would hurt their defense & team more & Harden's position is easier to replace in my opinion."

One Western Conference GM wrote that he'd favor keeping Ibaka because he suspects Harden's agent, Rob Pelinka, will demand a max deal for Harden, "and he's easier to replace," the GM wrote.

"I would keep Ibaka," an Eastern Conference exec said. ".....so hard to find frontcourt players with presence in the paint ....love Harden, but I would rather have to replace a scorer off the bench, than search for a big like Ibaka."

Wrote another east GM: "Love Ibaka, he is the X-factor for that team...Premier shot blocker in the NBA. Perkins knows how to defend the post but Ibaka is the anchor of their defense."

A veteran scout preferred Ibaka as well, "because of his defense, shot-blocking and rebounding. His offense has gotten a lot better and will continue to improve. Harden is very good, but I think he's easier to replace than Serge."

And there was -- is -- another potential solution.

"I'd keep both," wrote an Eastern Conference general manager, "and get rid of Perkins."

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Harden's having a pretty awful finals. I wonder if that'll make OKC think that they don't want to keep him and pay him the max.
Now, I'm pretty certain they wouldn't trade BOTH Harden and Ibaka for Aldridge, but they might consider Harden and Perkins for LA.
Of course, the fact that Harden's having a sucky finals is probably going to turn a lot of people off him as a potential franchise player, but I don't think it should. I think all it shows is that he doesn't necessarily work as third wheel.

But of course, if we've promised Waiters, we're not going to need Harden...

 

[RedHotRollin]

No way the Thunder does this.

Ibaka has an 18.5 PER and puts up 9/8. They don't need him to score (but they would if they traded Harden).

But why would they trade Harden? He's putting up 17/4/4 with a 21.5 PER, and he's a great fit for them as 3rd scorer.

Cuz they could use the inside scorer. They have two other guys that already play like Harden.

 

[RedHotRollin]

I wouldn't trade Harden straight up, and I strongly believe OKC wouldn't do it.

I never suggested just Boozer and Asik was a great rebuilding package for you.

I would say LA is worth more straight up than Harden. LA would probably put them over the top

 

[Mediocre Man]

As Randy Newman says, I love, LA. Mine just happens to be a 6'11" black man, and not a dirty city in southern California. That being said, LA is not a number 1 guy, so is trading a very good #2 for a very good #3 and two defensive studs on the front court a good deal? I think so.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

As Randy Newman says, I love, LA. Mine just happens to be a 6'11" black man, and not a dirty city in southern California. That being said, LA is not a number 1 guy, so is trading a very good #2 for a very good #3 and two defensive studs on the front court a good deal? I think so.

I'm starting to think the same way.

 

[HailBlazers]

LA is not a number 1 guy.

Yet.

He learns to dribble the ball/take it to the rim with any efficiency and he will be.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I'm starting to think the same way.

With some clever draft day trades and picks, along with some FA signings. The roster could look a lot better and deeper next year.

Dragic
Hardin
Batum
Ibaka
Perkins

Is solid if nothing else. Add in scorers at the 4 and 5 through FA or the draft and defense in the back court through the same?

Dragic/Smith/Wrotten
Hardin/Williams/Rivers
Batum/Barnes/Babbitt
Hickson/Ibaka/Freeland
Perkins/ Moultrie/Alabi

That roster at least has some potential? to be a nice well rounded team? Running any kind of a motion offense with that team and it's shooters would be pretty successful, IMO