OT Yet another reason to bring Cousins

[ripcityboy]

One season in...

DMC and Canzano:

I'd pray for this to happen!

 

[Boob-No-More]

He's been playing at this level for 2 years. Over those 2 years the starting lineup for the Kings has had one of the best net ratings for any starting lineup in the league. They suck because they have an awful bench. This year they made improvementsome but it's still pretty damn bad.

Sounds kind of like the Blazers three years ago. We had the best starting 5, but the worst bench in the league. The difference - that team won 54 games, not 30.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Sounds kind of like the Blazers three years ago. We had the best starting 5, but the worst bench in the league. The difference - that team won 54 games, not 30.

BNM

Our bench was better than theirs. We had a better starting lineup than theirs. We had a better culture than theres. We had more chemistry than them. We had a better system than them. Our pieces meshed better than theirs. Our coach was more in command of the locker room.

 

[Draco]

I have a problem with statements like this. It lets Cousins off way too easily. He is one of the biggest reasons the culture and locker room is so toxic. When Randive gave him that max extension he came out and said Boogie was the cornerstone of the franchise and had complete confidence he'd lead them back to winning ways. But, how has Cousins repaid that show of confidence? By criticizing his teammates, clashing with multiple coaches, having a public feud with a member of the media and getting suspended multiple times for conduct detrimental to the team. He claims he's a leader on that team. Does that sound like a leader to you? With Boogie, it's always somebody elses' fault - his coach, his teammates, his opponents, the refs, the front office. Truth be told, Demarcus Cousins' biggest problem is Demarcus Cousins.

BNM

It's kind of a chicken or the egg debate. I'm not sure which side to be on. Cousins does a lot of good thing but has obvious problems. The Kings are certainly a mess and its not all Cousins fault. We've seen players in the past clean up their act when they get in a better environment. We've also seen troubled players have problems on every team their a part of.

 

[blue9]

Also, bigs rarely lead teams to wins. Remember what LMA did when he didn't have Lillard or Roy?
You generally need your best player to be a guard/wing if you want to win games. Take a look at NOP - that Davis guy sucks.

 

[dviss1]

Also, bigs rarely lead teams to wins. Remember what LMA did when he didn't have Lillard or Roy?
You generally need your best player to be a guard/wing if you want to win games. Take a look at NOP - that Davis guy sucks.

We already have the guard. We need to pair him with the right big.

 

[illmatic99]

This is just sick.

 

[TBpup]

Also, bigs rarely lead teams to wins.

Tim Duncan and Shaq on line 1.

 

[blue9]

Tim Duncan and Shaq on line 1.

C'mon - you're smarter than that. Rarely =/= Never.
If your examples are (1) the best big to ever play the game and (2) the most dominant big to ever play the game, I'd say those are pretty rare guys.

 

[TBpup]

C'mon - you're smarter than that. Rarely =/= Never.
If your examples are (1) the best big to ever play the game and (2) the most dominant big to ever play the game, I'd say those are pretty rare guys.

Not at all. I just picked 2 of the most recent. There are a lot of other big men if you go back beyond those 2. The game has changed for now so is less big man oriented but like everything else, is cyclical and 'bigs' will come back.

 

[blue9]

Not at all. I just picked 2 of the most recent. There are a lot of other big men if you go back beyond those 2. The game has changed for now so is less big man oriented but like everything else, is cyclical and 'bigs' will come back.

Hey, I've been saying this for a while now. But the fact remains that guard/wing-lead teams are more apt to succeed than big-lead teams. I've illustrated this too many times, and don't want to rehash it again. Maybe in the summer.
And your "recent" examples are a decade+ old.

 

[selloutking]

This is just sick.

yea, would be horrible to have someone like that on the team you like.....



its kinda sad really, we have at least 2 bigs that are just as mobile, and could be near that level with ball handling in plums and nards, but have NEVER seen either of them even attempt driving on their man from outside like that. we better make sure we never change that!


...

 

[blue9]

its kinda sad really, we have at least 2 bigs that are just as mobile, and could be near that level with ball handling in plums and nards, but have NEVER seen either of them even attempt driving on their man from outside like that. we better make sure we never change that!

I've seen Plumlee go from coast-to-coast on a few occasions. Honestly, his ball-handling does remind me a bit of Cousins'. But he doesn't have the outside shot to help him get by his defender in the half-court. The fact that he does it as much as he has is pretty impressive.

I've also seen Leonard fake the 3 and put the ball on the floor a few times. It's something I'd like to see him do a lot more. He has terrible foot speed, but with practice I do think he could be more effective when opponents close-out on him on the 3-point line.

 

[TBpup]

Hey, I've been saying this for a while now. But the fact remains that guard/wing-lead teams are more apt to succeed than big-lead teams. I've illustrated this too many times, and don't want to rehash it again. Maybe in the summer.
And your "recent" examples are a decade+ old.

Tim Duncan just won a title last year and while he wasn't the MVP, they don't win it without him anchoring the front court. Guard/wings are certainly all the rage right now as 'bigs' were from from the mid 80's-2005. Yes, many of those didn't win a title due to the GOAT but Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq even players like Yao for a short time all were very much on the winning side of most of their games. Put a healthy Sabonis in ANY era and he is going to dominate. Can you see Draymond Green trying to guard him? That would be hysterical.

 

[BlazerWookee]

This is just sick.

Dribbling past a tree? Big deal...

 

[illmatic99]

Dribbling past a tree? Big deal...

How many 7' 300 lb guys can move and handle like that, even with no defender in front of them?

Your guy Joel Przybilla certainly can't.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I've seen Plumlee go from coast-to-coast on a few occasions. Honestly, his ball-handling does remind me a bit of Cousins'. But he doesn't have the outside shot to help him get by his defender in the half-court. The fact that he does it as much as he has is pretty impressive.

Yes this surprises me as well. I do like how he can catch in traffic and finish at the rim. But I can't help but wonder if maybe he will be able to shoot well enough from the outside to keep the defense honest. I mean we have seen him do it on occasion when the shot clock is expiring. (and make it) Maybe a full summer of shooting 10-12 sets shots and he can try it more often.

If he makes 2-3 per game.... and all of a sudden he is averaging 12-15 pts. (he average 9 now) That is ample from the center spot.

 

[BlazerWookee]

How many 7' 300 lb guys can move and handle like that, even with no defender in front of them?

Your guy Joel Przybilla certainly can't.

7'? 300?

Methinks thou dost hyperbolize too much...

 

[blue9]

Yes this surprises me as well. I do like how he can catch in traffic and finish at the rim. But I can't help but wonder if maybe he will be able to shoot well enough from the outside to keep the defense honest. I mean we have seen him do it on occasion when the shot clock is expiring. (and make it) Maybe a full summer of shooting 10-12 sets shots and he can try it more often.

If he makes 2-3 per game.... and all of a sudden he is averaging 12-15 pts. (he average 9 now) That is ample from the center spot.

Yeah, I want both Plumlee and Davis shooting 1,000+ 10-15' jumpers a day all summer long. There's absolutely no reason those guys can't shoot that at a 40% clip - which isn't necessarily good, but would at least be good enough. Plumlee is definitely closer to being adequate, but there's no reason Ed can't get there too.

 

[selloutking]

I've seen Plumlee go from coast-to-coast on a few occasions. Honestly, his ball-handling does remind me a bit of Cousins'. But he doesn't have the outside shot to help him get by his defender in the half-court. The fact that he does it as much as he has is pretty impressive.

I've also seen Leonard fake the 3 and put the ball on the floor a few times. It's something I'd like to see him do a lot more. He has terrible foot speed, but with practice I do think he could be more effective when opponents close-out on him on the 3-point line.

yes plums IS known for running the court with the ball, but not stopping at the 3pt line, sizing up the defender and taking him to the basket. every one of our big men would have passed or handed the ball off to dame/cj in that same sittuation

 

[Strenuus]

7'? 300?

Methinks thou dost hyperbolize too much...

1 inch and 30 pounds.

Demarcus and the Angry Inch!

 

[GoBlazersGo]

Tim Duncan just won a title last yea...

Tim Duncan played for the Warriors last year!?

 

[Strenuus]

Tim Duncan played for the Warriors last year!?

WHAT A TRAITOR! COAT RIDER!!!

 

[Orion Bailey]

How is that even a valid question? Complete applesranges. It's not a valid either/or secnario. Even if we add Cousins, we still need a bench and four other starters. It's not like adding Cousins allows us to free up money by only carrying a 10-man roster and starting four players. Whether it's Crabbe, Henderson and Harkless, three new guys, or some combination all those players are going to get paid whether we have Cousins, or not. He may be the best center in the league (at least on offense), but he's not good enough that we no longer need four other starters and a viable bench.

BNM

Edit: I have no idea why the forum software turned my colon (the punctuation mark, not the body part) into a little yellow smiley face. Does is just assume anyone who participates here is too dumb to know proper punctuation usage and just assumes we're all 13-year old girls? Oh, I see it's the colon followed by the letter o that gets automatically changed into the lame ass emoji. But I actually meant colon o, not .

Tim Duncan just won a title last year and while he wasn't the MVP, they don't win it without him anchoring the front court. Guard/wings are certainly all the rage right now as 'bigs' were from from the mid 80's-2005. Yes, many of those didn't win a title due to the GOAT but Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq even players like Yao for a short time all were very much on the winning side of most of their games. Put a healthy Sabonis in ANY era and he is going to dominate. Can you see Draymond Green trying to guard him? That would be hysterical.

Hakeem
Chamberlin
Jabar/Alcinder
Russell
Malone
Robinson
Mikan
Ewing
Walton

All of these centers made their teams substantially better, if not, led them to a ring.

Most are old, but it doesn't change that they dominated. The game will change again. The question is, will it change quick enough that we should be thinking about getting a quality dominating big, or is this guard dominated game going to last another decade? Lets not forget that up until Shaq retired, it was a big's game. This was only 10 years ago. Have we already been through the heart of the Guards domination and are entering the backside? IF the guards domination is only going to last another 3-5 years, then we need to get a player like Cousins for sure. If its going to last another decade, we can get away with big's by committee.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Our bench was better than theirs.

Not even close to true, by any statistical measure. SAC's bench is currently 5th in the league in scoring and 4th in FG%. The 54-win Blazers bench was dead last in scoring and 26th in FG%.

We had a better culture than theres. We had more chemistry than them. Our coach was more in command of the locker room.

And how much of that can be attributed to Cousin's. If their culture sucks and the coach doesn't have command of the locker room, perhaps it's partially due to the fact that their superstar and team leader is an immature asshole who is constantly in public mutiny of his head coach.

Cousins has been there 6 years. In that time, SAC has had two ownership groups, three GMs and 5 head coaches. All three GMs and 4 of the 5 coaches have suspended him for conduct detrimental to the team. Yeah, that's a lot of turnover in the head coaching ranks, but that's also due to the fact that Cousins can't seem to get along with any of his coaches. The one constant of the Kings' culture over the past 6 years is Demarcus Cousins and his insolent, immature, insubordinate attitude and behavior. Maybe he's the reason their culture sucks and their locker room is toxic.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

Hakeem
Chamberlin
Jabar/Alcinder
Russell
Malone
Robinson
Mikan
Ewing
Walton

All of these centers made their teams substantially better, if not, led them to a ring.

Most are old, but it doesn't change that they dominated. The game will change again. The question is, will it change quick enough that we should be thinking about getting a quality dominating big, or is this guard dominated game going to last another decade? Lets not forget that up until Shaq retired, it was a big's game. This was only 10 years ago. Have we already been through the heart of the Guards domination and are entering the backside? IF the guards domination is only going to last another 3-5 years, then we need to get a player like Cousins for sure. If its going to last another decade, we can get away with big's by committee.

Not sure why you quoted my post. Yes, for a period of nearly 30 years, the recipe for winning a championship was to build around a dominant big man. Then Jordan came along and changed that formula, but not nearly as much as most people think. The secret became to have either a dominant big man and/or at least two elite defenders. It wasn't just the Jordan Bulls, the Pistons, both the Bad Boys and 2004 Pistons also followed this formula. All of San Antonio's championship teams had at least one dominat big man (Robinson/Duncan) and multiple elite defenders (Robinson/Duncan/Bowen/Leonard) So, all the NBA champs from 1995 had either a dominant big man (Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson/Tim Duncan, etc.) or multiple elite defenders (Jodran/Pippen/Rodman, Rodman/Dumars, Duncan/Bowen/Lenard, Billups/Wallace/Prince, etc.).

What's changed recently is both the rules and the style of the game that favors smaller, quicker players that can shoot from deep. A lot of that is due to analytics. Offensive schemes are now designed to maximize scoring efficiency by getting as many efficient shots (open 3s and layups) as possible. This is generally created by player and ball movement - something that doesn't favor traditional low post big men.

Unless there are some significant rule changes, I think your assumption that guard domination will only last another 3 - 5 years is false. It used to be the most efficient way to rack up points was to dump it into low post big man who shot > 50% FG%. In this day and age, with all the top teams having one (or more) players shooting > 40% 3FGA%, that's no longer true. Golden State has Curry (.454 3FG%) and Thompson (.431 3FG%), but it doesn't end there. As a team, they attempt over 31 3FGA per game and shoot .415 3FG% as a team. League wide, 3FGA and 3FG% continue to rise. Young kids coming up no longer work on their low post footwork, they work on their shooting range and accuracy. And why not? Genetically, there will only be so many Shaq's Wilt's and Kareem's. The sample size of guys 6'3" will always be much, much larger. Through hard work and practice, many of those guys can become efficient 3-point shooters. All the practice in the world won't make them 7' tall. So, I don't see this trend reversing anytime soon. In fact, I think the reliance on guards who can handle the ball and knock down the open 3-pointer will only continue to increase.

The days of building an NBA champion around a dominant big man have passed, and barring major rule changes, traditional low post big men will be relegated to role players. Some of them, like Cousins, may be VERY good role players, but unless you pair them with one, or more, top tier guards, they won't win a championship. Just look at Cousins. Many in this thread have called him the best big man in the game, but in 6 years, he's never even sniffed the playoffs and this is the first time his team has even won 30 games. Can you imagine a Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc. team missing the playoffs 6 years in a row and failing to win 30 games 5 years in a row. Cousins isn't on their level, but still, there was a time when having the best big man in the game guaranteed you 50+ wins and a deep playoff run. Those days are gone and not coming back anytime soon.

BNM

 

[selloutking]

but we wouldn't be the leader here, so perhaps all of those issue's go away. He can take a back seat on leadership and just play his game instead.

 

[Boob-No-More]

but we wouldn't be the leader here, so perhaps all of those issue's go away. He can take a back seat on leadership and just play his game instead.

The Kings tried bringing in vets to help withe the leadership issue. The problem is, Cousins leads by example - bad example. He's butted heads publicly with multiple coaches, multiple GMs and members of the media. Even if he's not THE leader on the team, that shit disrupts chemistry and creates dissension in the ranks. Can he rein it in enough to not be a distraction and a negative locker room presence? It's yet to be seen.

BNM

 

[BonesJones]

Dribbling past a tree? Big deal...

Well he's a big tree too...

 

[Orion Bailey]

Not sure why you quoted my post. Yes, for a period of nearly 30 years, the recipe for winning a championship was to build around a dominant big man. Then Jordan came along and changed that formula, but not nearly as much as most people think. The secret became to have either a dominant big man and/or at least two elite defenders. It wasn't just the Jordan Bulls, the Pistons, both the Bad Boys and 2004 Pistons also followed this formula. All of San Antonio's championship teams had at least one dominat big man (Robinson/Duncan) and multiple elite defenders (Robinson/Duncan/Bowen/Leonard) So, all the NBA champs from 1995 had either a dominant big man (Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson/Tim Duncan, etc.) or multiple elite defenders (Jodran/Pippen/Rodman, Rodman/Dumars, Duncan/Bowen/Lenard, Billups/Wallace/Prince, etc.).

What's changed recently is both the rules and the style of the game that favors smaller, quicker players that can shoot from deep. A lot of that is due to analytics. Offensive schemes are now designed to maximize scoring efficiency by getting as many efficient shots (open 3s and layups) as possible. This is generally created by player and ball movement - something that doesn't favor traditional low post big men.

Unless there are some significant rule changes, I think your assumption that guard domination will only last another 3 - 5 years is false. It used to be the most efficient way to rack up points was to dump it into low post big man who shot > 50% FG%. In this day and age, with all the top teams having one (or more) players shooting > 40% 3FGA%, that's no longer true. Golden State has Curry (.454 3FG%) and Thompson (.431 3FG%), but it doesn't end there. As a team, they attempt over 31 3FGA per game and shoot .415 3FG% as a team. League wide, 3FGA and 3FG% continue to rise. Young kids coming up no longer work on their low post footwork, they work on their shooting range and accuracy. And why not? Genetically, there will only be so many Shaq's Wilt's and Kareem's. The sample size of guys 6'3" will always be much, much larger. Through hard work and practice, many of those guys can become efficient 3-point shooters. All the practice in the world won't make them 7' tall. So, I don't see this trend reversing anytime soon. In fact, I think the reliance on guards who can handle the ball and knock down the open 3-pointer will only continue to increase.

The days of building an NBA champion around a dominant big man have passed, and barring major rule changes, traditional low post big men will be relegated to role players. Some of them, like Cousins, may be VERY good role players, but unless you pair them with one, or more, top tier guards, they won't win a championship. Just look at Cousins. Many in this thread have called him the best big man in the game, but in 6 years, he's never even sniffed the playoffs and this is the first time his team has even won 30 games. Can you imagine a Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, etc. team missing the playoffs 6 years in a row and failing to win 30 games 5 years in a row. Cousins isn't on their level, but still, there was a time when having the best big man in the game guaranteed you 50+ wins and a deep playoff run. Those days are gone and not coming back anytime soon.

BNM

Just quoted you because you had alot to say on the topic and was responding. Neither in agreement or disagreement. I think most everyone is right. Is just the current fad is all. my questions is, how long will it last before the power swings the other way again. You say it has passed, but I thought I read you said it will come back around?

It has passed, but I think it will be back.