You Be the GM

[tykendo]

Sounds like you wouldn’t trade Dame for anyone... Pretty sad you put a player over team

IMO, there is growth in his game. You disagree. I disagree with your logic, especially on these draftpicks. Is what it is.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

IMO, there is growth in his game. You disagree. I disagree with your logic, especially on these draftpicks. Is what it is.

There’s a lot that goes into it, if we’re playing GM, how good do we think Ayton (or whoever we picked at #1 is, what is there potential, how close is Dame to his peak, how close is the team currently constructed to their peak). I will say I think there is something to height in today’s NBA. Look at all the teams left, they have Dame sized PG then everyone else is taller has more length and can switch defensively.
Now I can see the argument of giving them more time to figure it out, or at the least trying out a new coach to see if schematically there is something they can do (on both ends) to fix some of the height issues. One thing we don’t talk about much is even on offense the height is an issue as Dame and CJ don’t have the same drive and kick lanes as taller ball handlers, their forced to play differently on offense because one of them is always matched up with a taller longer player.
Now do they blow it up on prospects and draft choices? I dunno, there seems to be about equal chance of finding the next great bust as there is finding someone close to as good as Dame and CJ are now.
Now who knows if NO can pull off anything this summer that makes them quite a bit better while keeping Dame and CJ, but it seems like that’s how things are going so it’ll be interesting what they do, or don’t do.

 

[hoopsjock]

There’s a lot that goes into it, if we’re playing GM, how good do we think Ayton (or whoever we picked at #1 is, what is there potential, how close is Dame to his peak, how close is the team currently constructed to their peak). I will say I think there is something to height in today’s NBA. Look at all the teams left, they have Dame sized PG then everyone else is taller has more length and can switch defensively.
Now I can see the argument of giving them more time to figure it out, or at the least trying out a new coach to see if schematically there is something they can do (on both ends) to fix some of the height issues. One thing we don’t talk about much is even on offense the height is an issue as Dame and CJ don’t have the same drive and kick lanes as taller ball handlers, their forced to play differently on offense because one of them is always matched up with a taller longer player.
Now do they blow it up on prospects and draft choices? I dunno, there seems to be about equal chance of finding the next great bust as there is finding someone close to as good as Dame and CJ are now.
Now who knows if NO can pull off anything this summer that makes them quite a bit better while keeping Dame and CJ, but it seems like that’s how things are going so it’ll be interesting what they do, or don’t do.

See, I don't think their height would be an issue if they had a big SF who could handle the ball and make plays. It's what Turner is supposed to be but for some reason he stopped passing last year and had his 2nd lowest assist per game total of his career (only his rookie year was worse). The problem becomes finding a way to get a guy like that on our team.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

See, I don't think their height would be an issue if they had a big SF who could handle the ball and make plays. It's what Turner is supposed to be but for some reason he stopped passing last year and had his 2nd lowest assist per game total of his career (only his rookie year was worse). The problem becomes finding a way to get a guy like that on our team.

You might be right, and that’s part of why I said getting a new coach with a new approach could help. I think there is a reason why height is something every GM / scout looks at though and while it can be over come, I do believe it is a challenge.

 

[Gronk Brady]

See, I don't think their height would be an issue if they had a big SF who could handle the ball and make plays. It's what Turner is supposed to be but for some reason he stopped passing last year and had his 2nd lowest assist per game total of his career (only his rookie year was worse). The problem becomes finding a way to get a guy like that on our team.

Turner stopped passing because of McLillard ISO ball... passing/not passing is contagious... when your 2 leaders are over dribbling and going 1 on 3 it doesn’t inspire the others to share the ball because they probably won’t get it back

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Turner stopped passing because of McLillard ISO ball... passing/not passing is contagious... when your 2 leaders are over dribbling and going 1 on 3 it doesn’t inspire the others to share the ball because they probably won’t get it back

To me this was the 1st year I can remember where Lillard at times got visibly frustrated with team mates. It seemed like he would start off most games trying to run the offense make smart plays, attack when there was an opportunity, but there were a lot of games where he would get tired of watching the bricks and turn overs and sloppy play and decide to go one on 5. The Phoenix game where they were down by like 20 came to mind, he just kind of said screw it I’ll do it myself.

I think CJ is the guy who really struggles with not being that willing of a passer. I think Dame has gotten a lot better at setting up guys. The Nurkic Dame PnR was one of their best plays.
They just need the other guys to hit shots, and more importantly when the defender gets to them, to not make bone-headed plays. Too many times they’d run a play one of the wings or a big would get the ball and dribble it off a leg, or over dribble or whateve. I think Dame seemed frustrated at times this year.

 

[hoopsjock]

Turner stopped passing because of McLillard ISO ball... passing/not passing is contagious... when your 2 leaders are over dribbling and going 1 on 3 it doesn’t inspire the others to share the ball because they probably won’t get it back

Actually Dame's assists went up this year compared to the previous year and it was the 2nd most in his career. His usage rate went down so less ISO ball.

 

[Gronk Brady]

Actually Dame's assists went up this year compared to the previous year and it was the 2nd most in his career. His usage rate went down so less ISO ball.

Dame does do his share of passing and setting up teammates but he is still a shoot first PG... combine that with CJ going 1 on 3 with teammates wide open and the net effect is no flow to a “flow” offense... I don’t have a problem with either player individually, they are both talented... it’s just both are ISO ball scorers at heart and the combo will never work... they won’t chnge the way they have played their entire life at 27 years old

 

[Chris Craig]

Blazers need to Trade Aminu, Turner, try to trade Leonard, look at what they can get for CJ. Draft night is perfect to get something done. Trade the pick too. Unless CJ is traded in a draft night trade there is no way the Blazers get up to the lottery. This draft is a 6-8 player draft. There won't be alot left at 24, but to a rebuilding team it could have value. (Your saying well the Blazers are a rebuilding team. Thry should use it) The Blazers need to go to the next phase in this "5 year" reboot, rebuild, retooling plan of Neils. I agree with his assesment during the combine. I'm hoping ge's getting real with himself. That Paul is telling him to jump into high gear. Blazers need to get proven players, trade some guys away, reisgn Nurk and Davis for sure, maybe even Napier. Use the tpes. Use the MLE. Use the vet min. If the Blazers don't they will continue to waste Lillards window and will continue to run in circles.

 

[hoopsjock]

Dame does do his share of passing and setting up teammates but he is still a shoot first PG... combine that with CJ going 1 on 3 with teammates wide open and the net effect is no flow to a “flow” offense... I don’t have a problem with either player individually, they are both talented... it’s just both are ISO ball scorers at heart and the combo will never work... they won’t chnge the way they have played their entire life at 27 years old

You say Turner's assists went down because of Dame and CJ ISO ball. I gave you numbers that prove Dame had the ball less while having more assists. You come back at me with how the back court will never work. That still doesn't explain Turner going from a pass first player to an ISO ball player who rarely passes.

 

[hoopsjock]

Dame does do his share of passing and setting up teammates but he is still a shoot first PG... combine that with CJ going 1 on 3 with teammates wide open and the net effect is no flow to a “flow” offense... I don’t have a problem with either player individually, they are both talented... it’s just both are ISO ball scorers at heart and the combo will never work... they won’t chnge the way they have played their entire life at 27 years old

In fact, CJ's usage rate also went down from the previous two seasons so your argument really doesn't hold water when it comes to Turner's role.

 

[Gronk Brady]

There is just no path to success with keeping Dame and CJ together... NONE. Even if we bring back same roster as last season with no additions, that puts team 20 mil over the luxury tax for a roster that couldn’t even win 1 game in playoffs. There is no reality where the Dame/CJ combo will ever contend. If you are waiting until we have cap room, then Dame and CJ will be near 30 and starting their decline, and be up for new contracts that will probably cost 30+ mil for each player... and even if you were able to retool the roster at that time, there are probably other young players and teams who’s development has far surpassed the Blazers... it’s sad because Dame and CJ have some real trade value now, but unfortunately Neil is trying to force the issue and will wait til their trade values are greatly diminished as the get close to 30

 

[CupWizier]

There is just no path to success with keeping Dame and CJ together... NONE. Even if we bring back same roster as last season with no additions, that puts team 20 mil over the luxury tax for a roster that couldn’t even win 1 game in playoffs. There is no reality where the Dame/CJ combo will ever contend. If you are waiting until we have cap room, then Dame and CJ will be near 30 and starting their decline, and be up for new contracts that will probably cost 30+ mil for each player... and even if you were able to retool the roster at that time, there are probably other young players and teams who’s development has far surpassed the Blazers... it’s sad because Dame and CJ have some real trade value now, but unfortunately Neil is trying to force the issue and will wait til their trade values are greatly diminished as the get close to 30

Near 30? as if that's old? In 2 years they will be 28 and 30 which is younger than Toronto, Houston. NO and GS back court right now along with several others as well. You need to stop acting like they are old.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

There is just no path to success with keeping Dame and CJ together... NONE. Even if we bring back same roster as last season with no additions, that puts team 20 mil over the luxury tax for a roster that couldn’t even win 1 game in playoffs. There is no reality where the Dame/CJ combo will ever contend. If you are waiting until we have cap room, then Dame and CJ will be near 30 and starting their decline, and be up for new contracts that will probably cost 30+ mil for each player... and even if you were able to retool the roster at that time, there are probably other young players and teams who’s development has far surpassed the Blazers... it’s sad because Dame and CJ have some real trade value now, but unfortunately Neil is trying to force the issue and will wait til their trade values are greatly diminished as the get close to 30

the real question is how much is CJ actually worth? If they best they can do is CJ and the 24 and get up to like 10th? I don't take that deal. The only way I would is if I can get like in the top 5 or 6. However, I don't know if other GM's think CJ is worth that. Then you get into another we're retooling around Dame round, and how many of those retools is he willing to go through?
Dame is their best asset and could probably get them in the top 3, but the chances the player the draft ever becomes as good as Dame is pretty low. It's a weird position. If they go complete blow it up mode then they're going to be bad for a few years and most of fans would find it tough to be patient during the reconstruction phase (again).

It's a lot easier to say lets trade CJ and whatever to move up to the 4th! than it is to actually pull that off and get another GM to agree with it, they're trying to keep their job too. I think maybe the most interesting part of all of this is what is CJ's trade value, because I kind of suspect it's not as high as a lot of us think it is, which is one of the reasons why NO hasn't moved him already.

 

[BigGameDamian]

 

[hoopsjock]

There is just no path to success with keeping Dame and CJ together... NONE. Even if we bring back same roster as last season with no additions, that puts team 20 mil over the luxury tax for a roster that couldn’t even win 1 game in playoffs. There is no reality where the Dame/CJ combo will ever contend. If you are waiting until we have cap room, then Dame and CJ will be near 30 and starting their decline, and be up for new contracts that will probably cost 30+ mil for each player... and even if you were able to retool the roster at that time, there are probably other young players and teams who’s development has far surpassed the Blazers... it’s sad because Dame and CJ have some real trade value now, but unfortunately Neil is trying to force the issue and will wait til their trade values are greatly diminished as the get close to 30

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Are you not capable of having a discussion without resorting back to this? Putting a capable wing who can handle the ball, create his own shot, and make plays for others would absolutely make it so Dame and CJ could exist on a contending team.

Last year the argument was that they couldn't co-exist because the defense would never be good enough. Well they were 7th in defensive rating this year so that disproves that theory. Now it's because they play too much ISO ball when the numbers actually show they decreased their usage rates this year.

Now the question is: How do they get that wing? There have been lots of ideas in here.

You know what I haven't seen from all of your repetitive posts? A single realistic idea of who you would trade CJ for to balance out the roster. You'd probably be taken a little more seriously if you had an actual plan to get better.

 

[H.C.]

UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Are you not capable of having a discussion without resorting back to this? Putting a capable wing who can handle the ball, create his own shot, and make plays for others would absolutely make it so Dame and CJ could exist on a contending team.

Last year the argument was that they couldn't co-exist because the defense would never be good enough. Well they were 7th in defensive rating this year so that disproves that theory. Now it's because they play too much ISO ball when the numbers actually show they decreased their usage rates this year.

Now the question is: How do they get that wing? There have been lots of ideas in here.

You know what I haven't seen from all of your repetitive posts? A single realistic idea of who you would trade CJ for to balance out the roster. You'd probably be taken a little more seriously if you had an actual plan to get better.

He wants to trade Lillard & CJ because they're basically 40 years old.
His plan would be getting the 1st overall for Lillard and a top 10 pick for CJ.
Cause players who are basically 40 totally command that sort of value.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Why in the hell, would the Wiz, or Knicks do that. They get nothing. And I like Clarkson. I think he would be great in Portland. Underused in Cleveland.

Massive cost savings for both. Knicks swap useless Noah for more serviceable Mahinmi, and also ditch Lee and Thomas' long term deals. Wiz swap the $80M owed Porter for the $20M owed Harkless, paving the way for Oubre to take over at SF, and swap the overpaid Mahinmi out for a quality combo guard at a much lower price tag.

Anyway, the question was what kind of additional considerations would be necessary in order for each team involved to accept such a deal. Do I take it that you think it's so lopsided that it's not worth discussing?

 

[hoopsjock]

the real question is how much is CJ actually worth? If they best they can do is CJ and the 24 and get up to like 10th? I don't take that deal. The only way I would is if I can get like in the top 5 or 6. However, I don't know if other GM's think CJ is worth that. Then you get into another we're retooling around Dame round, and how many of those retools is he willing to go through?
Dame is their best asset and could probably get them in the top 3, but the chances the player the draft ever becomes as good as Dame is pretty low. It's a weird position. If they go complete blow it up mode then they're going to be bad for a few years and most of fans would find it tough to be patient during the reconstruction phase (again).

It's a lot easier to say lets trade CJ and whatever to move up to the 4th! than it is to actually pull that off and get another GM to agree with it, they're trying to keep their job too. I think maybe the most interesting part of all of this is what is CJ's trade value, because I kind of suspect it's not as high as a lot of us think it is, which is one of the reasons why NO hasn't moved him already.

I've spent way too much time reading other forums of various teams. Even the thoughts on other site's can properly gauge CJ's value. I think Philly is a perfect place for him. I've seen everything from I'd give up Fultz, Covington, Bayless, and #10 for him to I wouldn't really give up much for him. Same thing on a Bucks sits in which some would give up a package around Middleton, Brogdon, and #17 and others don't think he fits well with the Greek Freak. I've seen national writers say the Cavs would give up Love and #8 for him, which we all think they wouldn't ever do.

I really don't see the Suns trading the 1st pick.

The Kings aren't going to trade the 2nd pick for CJ, maybe Dame.

The Hawks aren't going to trade the 3rd pick for CJ, maybe Dame.

The Grizzlies I guess could consider trading #4 if we took on Parsons but that is a real long shot.

The Mavericks might have some interest in CJ but I still think the #5 pick is a little much for them to give up.

The Magic at #6 ummmmmm, who the fuck knows with them?

The Bulls probably don't have any use for CJ at #7

The Cavs at 8 I already mentioned. After that we are getting into the range where as you mentioned trading CJ isn't bringing back enough value. If they go full rebuild they HAVE to stick to it and go All-In. If they can't get the 2nd pick for Dame and at worse the 8th pick for CJ then it really doesn't make sense to trade them in a full rebuild mode. We don't even know if the other teams would do that. To me it seems easier to make some minor trades to get some mid 1st round picks and shoot for home runs that way to help Dame and CJ out.

 

[hoopsjock]

He wants to trade Lillard & CJ because they're basically 40 years old.
His plan would be getting the 1st overall for Lillard and a top 10 pick for CJ.
Cause players who are basically 40 totally command that sort of value.

That is why I said a realistic CJ trade that would balance the roster. I just want one legit one from him.

 

[hoopsjock]

There is just no path to success with keeping Dame and CJ together... NONE. Even if we bring back same roster as last season with no additions, that puts team 20 mil over the luxury tax for a roster that couldn’t even win 1 game in playoffs. There is no reality where the Dame/CJ combo will ever contend. If you are waiting until we have cap room, then Dame and CJ will be near 30 and starting their decline, and be up for new contracts that will probably cost 30+ mil for each player... and even if you were able to retool the roster at that time, there are probably other young players and teams who’s development has far surpassed the Blazers... it’s sad because Dame and CJ have some real trade value now, but unfortunately Neil is trying to force the issue and will wait til their trade values are greatly diminished as the get close to 30

And who the fuck said that they should bring back the SAME roster as last season with NO additions? Even Olshey has said multiple times that the team needs better players.

 

[riverman]

The Mavericks might have some interest in CJ but I still think the #5 pick is a little much for them to give up.

Cuban has already said his draft pick is up for grabs...he'd trade it in a heartbeat

 

[Gronk Brady]

And who the fuck said that they should bring back the SAME roster as last season with NO additions? Even Olshey has said multiple times that the team needs better players.

I don’t really care what Neil said... the reality is he is not gonna land the peices to make a difference on this team offering up only Turner, Aminu, Harkless, Meyers, and the 24th pick in trade... this mythical players he thinks he will get that is 3&D, has size and can put the ball on the floor... no chance to get a difference maker offering that crap... then he will come to after draft press conference and say “look... were not just gonna make a trade to make a trade”... then we will have same roster because he refuses to put CJ on the table...

 

[BonesJones]

What part is funny to you? You wouldn’t trade CJ for Booker? Or you wouldn’t trade Dame for number 1? I would LMAO at anyone that would turn down either of those deals... as much as I love Dame because of his loyalty to the city, and big numbers in regular season... he is shooting 40% fg and 34% 3pt in 6 years in the playoffs and will be 28 next season... at this point I’d rather roll the dice on a possible generational talent than pay Dame 30 mil per year... as far as CJ, I’ll take a 21 year old with way more size than pay a 27 year old that doesn’t like to pass 25 mil a year... just doesn’t understand what is so funny to you

Dame for #1... no thanks.

 

[Gronk Brady]

Dame for #1... no thanks.

That’s fine, I respect you not liking that trade but it’s not laughable... Ayton and Doncic are about as sure thing as you can get at the top of a draft... the they have tremendous upside. Plus all Dame has shown on court so far in his career is that he is a great regular season player...

 

[hoopsjock]

Cuban has already said his draft pick is up for grabs...he'd trade it in a heartbeat

Cuban said they are open to trading, that doesn't mean they'd do it for CJ.

 

[BonesJones]

That’s fine, I respect you not liking that trade but it’s not laughable... Ayton and Doncic are about as sure thing as you can get at the top of a draft... the they have tremendous upside

Yeah, hopefully they can be just as good as Dame and embrace and represent the city in the same way.

 

[hoopsjock]

I don’t really care what Neil said... the reality is he is not gonna land the peices to make a difference on this team offering up only Turner, Aminu, Harkless, Meyers, and the 24th pick in trade... this mythical players he thinks he will get that is 3&D, has size and can put the ball on the floor... no chance to get a difference maker offering that crap... then he will come to after draft press conference and say “look... were not just gonna make a trade to make a trade”... then we will have same roster because he refuses to put CJ on the table...

I totally get that you don't think there is a chance to add a difference maker (even though there is), but can you PLEASE give an example of a realistic CJ trade that you think would change the course of this team?

 

[riverman]

Cuban said they are open to trading, that doesn't mean they'd do it for CJ.

They'd be foolish not to if it's on the table....I don't see us doing this though

 

[Gronk Brady]

I totally get that you don't think there is a chance to add a difference maker (even though there is), but can you PLEASE give an example of a realistic CJ trade that you think would change the course of this team?