2021 Trade Thread

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BonesJones said:
What....

Lonzo is probably more injury-prone than CJ, and Lonzo will never be more than a role player. Let's downgrade our top end talent to do what, further waste Dame's prime?
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Then who would you trade CJ for? My ideal guy would be Siakam.
 
damianlillard said:
I like Randle a lot but I feel that trade would be pointless as it wouldn’t elevate us to championship contender. If we are trading CJ it have to be for all-nba type player. CJ has taken his game up to a whole other level this year. And the way how he has been playing is pretty sustainable to keep it up. Now if we could get Randle without giving up CJ then that would be awesome
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I don't like the trade for Randle but CJ's "year" is only 12 games long. I'd say, considering his career norms, the odds are pretty high his level of play is not sustainable and he'll regress.

I mean his career PER is 17.4 and he's at 26.4; his career TS% is .553 and he's at .620; his career assist rate is 17.2% and he's at 26.3%; his career wjnshare is .107 and he's at .227; his career BPM is 1.1 and he's at 6.9

expecting CJ to sustain those numbers would have been like expecting Dame to sustain the numbers over that 10-12 game stretch hast season when he was averaging something like (IIRC) 44 points and 10 assists with a TS% north of 70%.
 
wizenheimer said:
I don't like the trade for Randle but CJ's "year" is only 12 games long. I'd say, considering his career norms, the odds are pretty high his level of play is not sustainable and he'll regress.

I mean his career PER is 17.4 and he's at 26.4; his career TS% is .553 and he's at .620; his career assist rate is 17.2% and he's at 26.3%; his career wjnshare is .107 and he's at .227; his career BPM is 1.1 and he's at 6.9

expecting CJ to sustain those numbers would have been like expecting Dame to sustain the numbers over that 10-12 game stretch hast season when he was averaging something like (IIRC) 44 points and 10 assists with a TS% north of 70%.
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Right. That's part o f the reason I always dream up trades for CJ. For one thing; he's just not here. And when he comes back, who knows who he will be?
 
wizenheimer said:
I don't like the trade for Randle but CJ's "year" is only 12 games long. I'd say, considering his career norms, the odds are pretty high his level of play is not sustainable and he'll regress.

I mean his career PER is 17.4 and he's at 26.4; his career TS% is .553 and he's at .620; his career assist rate is 17.2% and he's at 26.3%; his career wjnshare is .107 and he's at .227; his career BPM is 1.1 and he's at 6.9

expecting CJ to sustain those numbers would have been like expecting Dame to sustain the numbers over that 10-12 game stretch hast season when he was averaging something like (IIRC) 44 points and 10 assists with a TS% north of 70%.
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That 12 game stretch of Dame was far more unsustainable than this 12 game stretch for C.J.
 
BonesJones said:
That 12 game stretch of Dame was far more unsustainable than this 12 game stretch for C.J.
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Thank you!! Lol. While it’s reasonable to expect CJ to regress somewhat. Look at the kind of shots he taking. He has always been a great 3 point shooter but he never took enough of them. This year he taking 4 more attempt than he did last year on even better efficiency. So I will say this CJ will not regress to his normal career norm. But he will still be dangerous if he keep taking more 3s. He always has been capable of this, he just needed to do it
 
BonesJones said:
If you think someone scoring 44ppg is the same as someone scoring 28ppg, I don't know what to tell ya.
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look...I actually agree with you that what Dame did in that stretch was more unsustainable than what CJ was doing. But based upon their norms, what both were doing was beyond a realistic expectation of sustainability. Hot streaks are common and both were incredibly hot for a dozen games or so.

we'll see how CJ does when he comes back but I'd expect his efficiency and production to regress toward his norms.

I'm also convinced Portland is best when Dame is aggressive in creating offense for himself and the team. He was deferring to CJ too much in the first part of the season and it made him less of a player with less impact. I believe CJ can be a lot closer to what he can be as a 2nd fiddle then Dame can. To me, it's just another example of the awkward on-court synergy Dame and CJ have
 
wizenheimer said:
I'm also convinced Portland is best when Dame is aggressive in creating offense for himself and the team. He was deferring to CJ too much in the first part of the season and it made him less of a player with less impact.
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This might be true, but when that happens don't you think Dame will get worn down? What happens when Dame gets hurt and there is no CJ. what happens in the playoffs when they double Dame. I have not read this whole thread but if it is another "duplication" discussion then count me as one who believes that you want both. 1/3 of their minutes should be without the other on the court.

I said earlier I would take someone like Siakam in a trade for CJ, but not someone who is not as good as CJ. Too many suggestions out there are for players that will not make us better.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
This might be true, but when that happens don't you think Dame will get worn down? What happens when Dame gets hurt and there is no CJ. what happens in the playoffs when they double Dame. I have not read this whole thread but if it is another "duplication" discussion then count me as one who believes that you want both. 1/3 of their minutes should be without the other on the court.

I said earlier I would take someone like Siakam in a trade for CJ, but not someone who is not as good as CJ. Too many suggestions out there are for players that will not make us better.
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Gotta love the narrative of "CJ playing well is unsustainable, and it was a negative anyway because it took away from Dame."

Some people are hellbent on making CJ out to be garbage.
 
wizenheimer said:
look...I actually agree with you that what Dame did in that stretch was more unsustainable than what CJ was doing. But based upon their norms, what both were doing was beyond a realistic expectation of sustainability. Hot streaks are common and both were incredibly hot for a dozen games or so.

we'll see how CJ does when he comes back but I'd expect his efficiency and production to regress toward his norms.

I'm also convinced Portland is best when Dame is aggressive in creating offense for himself and the team. He was deferring to CJ too much in the first part of the season and it made him less of a player with less impact. I believe CJ can be a lot closer to what he can be as a 2nd fiddle then Dame can. To me, it's just another example of the awkward on-court synergy Dame and CJ have
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Your hate of CJ knows no bounds. It's OK to admit you were wrong-- you're in an anonymous forum for Godsakes. No one gives a shit if you predicted something correctly or not
 
Pinwheel1 said:
I said earlier I would take someone like Siakam in a trade for CJ, but not someone who is not as good as CJ. Too many suggestions out there are for players that will not make us better.
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The only way you "get better" by trading CJ is by taking a risk--no excellent wing is going to be available for CJ. Unless he proves that his season this year before he got hurt is his new, permanent level, he's not worth a really good wing. So you have to make a bet on a pre-hype (many of whom are ironically post-hype als0) like Brandon Ingram was when he was traded or Andrew Wiggins was when he was traded. Someone who's deemed disappointing, but you think could flourish with the right culture and coaching (or just more development).

Otherwise, the team will just tread water with CJ. My issue with CJ is not exactly "duplication." I'd take two Stephen Curries, two Dame Lillards or two Kevin Durants. The problem, to me, is that CJ isn't another Lillard (again, unless his small sample explosion is a genuine evolution, which I'm not betting on right now) and his defense is a problem at a wing position (counting twos and threes as wings). To me, CJ is closer to a Lou Williams type of player than a Damian Lillard--someone who's a potential microwave scorer, but who's not an elite level scorer and brings poor defense.
 
illmatic99 said:
This is such a tired narrative.
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Right, what you think is a legitimate opinion, what others think is "narrative." Feel free to divide the world into "reasonable people" and "haters," but that's the true intellectual laziness. I don't hate CJ, so I'm not pushing a narrative. But I guess it allows you to avoid using your brain, it's much easier to toss off a dismissive line.
 
Minstrel said:
Right, what you think is a legitimate opinion, what others think is "narrative." Feel free to divide the world into "reasonable people" and "haters," but that's the true intellectual laziness. I don't hate CJ, so I'm not pushing a narrative. But I guess it allows you to avoid using your brain, it's much easier to toss off a dismissive line.
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Not calling you a hater, but CJ plays nothing like Lou Williams. Lou is a ball dominant score-first guard who relies heavily on pounding the ball and drawing fouls. CJ is nothing like that.

And the idea that he shouldn't be starting is something that people have been harping on for over 5 yrs now, without any merit really. CJ and Dame had been developing great synergy this season with CJ taking more threes and actively passing more. His comments in various media appearances confirm the deliberate change in his game. Just a damn shame he couldn't show how sustainable it was because of his fluke injury
 
illmatic99 said:
Not calling you a hater, but CJ plays nothing like Lou Williams. And the idea that he shouldn't be starting is something that people have been harping on for over 5 yrs now, without any merit really
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I never said he shouldn't be starting, nor did I say he plays like Lou Williams. My comparison to Lou Williams was that he's a potent, but not elite, offensive player (Williams has, in fact, been a better play-maker, by Assist Rate, then CJ) which means that, combined with his overall poor defense, he's not star-level.

I'm certainly not the first to say that, but that's because it's true. It has nothing to do with "narrative."
 
Minstrel said:
That he's a potent but not elite offensive player (elite meaning like Lillard, Curry, Durant, Harden, etc) and he's a poor defender.
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CJ's numbers this year were on par with Steph's MVP season when he went down, and the most obvious change he made was shooting 4 more three point shots. And his ast% was up to 26% (up nearly 50% from his career numbers) , nearly where Dame is for his career. Really no way for any of us to definitively predict if this is sustainable or not until he gets back to the court.

Listen to his comments to Bill Simmons on his podcast about what he's done to change this year. I choose to believe this change is real.

 
illmatic99 said:
Really no way for any of us to definitively predict if this is sustainable or not until he gets back to the court.
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I agree that there's no way to definitively predict whether it's sustainable. And if you choose to believe it's real, I have no issue with that. I've seen short stretches of great play from many, many players that proved to be simply hot streaks, so my default (or my priors) is that a short stretch of play during a player's prime that deviates significantly (good or bad) from an established norm is likely to regress back to that norm (aside from cases of injury). I don't discount the possibility that it might not be a hot streak, and it might be a new level--when discussing CJ, I've always allowed for that possibility (and I did twice in that post you originally responded to). I simply don't consider it the likeliest case. I'd be thrilled if it is his new normal.
 
illmatic99 said:
Your hate of CJ knows no bounds. It's OK to admit you were wrong-- you're in an anonymous forum for Godsakes. No one gives a shit if you predicted something correctly or not
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point out the "hate" and what it is I'm "predicting"
 
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Minstrel said:
Right, what you think is a legitimate opinion, what others think is "narrative." Feel free to divide the world into "reasonable people" and "haters," but that's the true intellectual laziness. I don't hate CJ, so I'm not engaging in narrative. But I guess it allows you to avoid using your brain, it's much easier to toss off a dismissive line.
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Anyone who thinks CJ and Dame are a good combination to take up 2/3 of the team's cap space, with the facts that they run zero offensive sets that complement each other and that Dame is a poor defender and CJ is a horrible defender, is either kidding themselves, not thinking and/or hasn't been watching them fail for years. They are redundant... no personnel move that takes up 30 million dollars should be made in case of injury. We need a second star that can create offense in a way that differs from Dame/doesn't take away from Dame and adds something on the defensive end. That would likely be someone that has a level of talent near CJ's that fills a different role.

I continue to think that we can get Julius Randle and Austin Rivers for CJ even while CJ is injured. I do think that Randle is already at CJ's level and has more upside. Rivers is the guard that we need that can backup at PG effectively and defend both guard positions. I don't love Nurk with Randle (although Randle isn't horrible on defense on the perimeter) and would likely want to move Nurk for a more mobile center but that doesn't have a lot to do with CJ.
 
blazerkor said:
Anyone who thinks CJ and Dame are a good combination to take up 2/3 of the team's cap space, with the facts that they run zero offensive sets that complement each other and that Dame is a poor defender and CJ is a horrible defender, is either kidding themselves, not thinking and/or hasn't been watching them fail for years. They are redundant... no personnel move that takes up 30 million dollars should be made in case of injury. We need a second star that can create offense in a way that differs from Dame/doesn't take away from Dame and adds something on the defensive end. That would likely be someone that has a level of talent near CJ's that fills a different role.

I continue to think that we can get Julius Randle and Austin Rivers for CJ even while CJ is injured. I do think that Randle is already at CJ's level and has more upside. Rivers is the guard that we need that can backup at PG effectively and defend both guard positions. I don't love Nurk with Randle (although Randle isn't horrible on defense on the perimeter) and would likely want to move Nurk for a more mobile center but that doesn't have a lot to do with CJ.
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How does CJ take away from Dame, and how does Randle as our 2nd playmaker NOT take away from Dame in the same way exactly?
 
RR7 said:
How does CJ take away from Dame, and how does Randle as our 2nd playmaker NOT take away from Dame in the same way exactly?
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I just think a PG and PF can work better off of each other at a two man game with everyone else being complementary than a PG and PG can. We've seen that when CJ gets the ball Dame rarely gets touches afterwards and I think it would be different with Randle. Just IMO when you have diverse ways of scoring and initiating offense, it is more complementary than having all of that being redundant... different positions on the floor as apposed to the same ones, different abilities as apposed to the same, etc. Also there was the whole defensive thing where CJ definitely hurts Dame a lot and Randle in theory wouldn't.

Maybe that's all just coaching and maybe I'm not putting enough weight into the 12 games that started the season in which CJ was playing a little more with Dame offensively, instead of Dame having his possessions and CJ having his every time.
 
RR7 said:
How does CJ take away from Dame, and how does Randle as our 2nd playmaker NOT take away from Dame in the same way exactly?
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It's like you have a car and a trailer or you have two cars. And CJ and Dame are to very nice cars, but you can only drive one or the other at the same time.
 
Bulls are going to be sellers at the deadline.

Operation land Zach Levine :bwpopcorn:
 
blazerkor said:
Anyone who thinks CJ and Dame are a good combination to take up 2/3 of the team's cap space, with the facts that they run zero offensive sets that complement each other and that Dame is a poor defender and CJ is a horrible defender, is either kidding themselves, not thinking and/or hasn't been watching them fail for years. They are redundant... no personnel move that takes up 30 million dollars should be made in case of injury. We need a second star that can create offense in a way that differs from Dame/doesn't take away from Dame and adds something on the defensive end. That would likely be someone that has a level of talent near CJ's that fills a different role.

I continue to think that we can get Julius Randle and Austin Rivers for CJ even while CJ is injured. I do think that Randle is already at CJ's level and has more upside. Rivers is the guard that we need that can backup at PG effectively and defend both guard positions. I don't love Nurk with Randle (although Randle isn't horrible on defense on the perimeter) and would likely want to move Nurk for a more mobile center but that doesn't have a lot to do with CJ.
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I would make that trade but no way the Knicks would now unless we sweeten the pot. Randal was the kind of front court player I has hoping to acquire in the off season.
I like CJ but in order to get a high caliber player you have to be willing to give up a high caliber player.
 
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