Game Thread 2023-24 GAME #63 - BLAZERS VS RAPTORS - MARCH 9, 2024 - SATURDAY - 7:00 PM PST - ROOT

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speeds said:
Seems like not having a go-to scorer might be related.
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Related to assist rate and wins having no correlation? I'm not following how that makes sense.
 
Tince said:
Related to assist rate and wins having no correlation? I'm not following how that makes sense.
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I'm pretty stoned but I think I meant the these teams are passing well out of necessity and not necessarily as a function of an effective offence. The 'leading the league in assists' storyline is one the Raptors commentators have adopted in looking for positive spins besides player development and trades. It sounds better than it is. And we've had one of like five guys each night stepping up this season leading to pretty staggering inconsistency.
 
The Raptors commentators noted that the Blazers were the last team that GTJ had not scored 20pts against in his career (until tonight), not counting the Raptors, who he hasn't still.
 
Tince said:
Anyone upset with Ant and Ayton playing a lot of minutes, please remind me of the value we got out of all those Skylar Mays, Kevin Knox, Jeenathan Williams, Trendon Watford, Justin Minaya, John Bulter, and Chase Camanche minutes last year.
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you forgot Ryan Arcidiacono & Shaq Harrison
 
Gotta say, the three home games this week were all at least somewhat entertaining - which is a change from the past two March stretches of games. I definitely am on board with Ayton - he's been great when healthy since the New Year.

Also, it was great walking out a winner for the first time since January. The walk back to the car is a lot shorter even in the cold after a win.
 
wizenheimer said:
Portland tried to give the game away but Toronto was too inept for the giveaway to succeed.
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If Deandre and Ant didn't come out for the second half I would agree with you. Hell if those two didn't play the entire OT then I would agree we tried to give the Raptors the win but they were both in for the crunch minutes of the fourth and the entire OT.
 
Tince said:
I was told the rebuild would be more fun than 1st round playoff exits.
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1st round exits are no fun at all, not to me at least; treadmill in purgatory

and the rebuild was inevitable once Dame asked to be traded. Getting to that point was 5-6 year path of poor choices, IMO. And I think Cronin essentially maneuvered Dame into the trade demand because he believed that Olshey's roster was not salvageable. And it probably wasn't

problem is if Cronin believes Ant-Grant-Ayton are the new core, then the Blazers are probably locked into a purgatory a level below 1st round exits
 
kjironman1 said:
Unnecessary probably. No question that loss would have helped this team.
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this team is on pace to finish with most likely the 3rd or 4th worst record in franchise history and people are still complaining about winning its third game in ten tries. Ugh.
 
wizenheimer said:
1st round exits are no fun at all, not to me at least; treadmill in purgatory

and the rebuild was inevitable once Dame asked to be traded. Getting to that point was 5-6 year path of poor choices, IMO. And I think Cronin essentially maneuvered Dame into the trade demand because he believed that Olshey's roster was not salvageable. And it probably wasn't

problem is if Cronin believes Ant-Grant-Ayton are the new core, then the Blazers are probably locked into a purgatory a level below 1st round exits
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I hear you... though I'm not seeing many of the folks saying the rebuild would be fun, actually enjoying it.

You bring up one of my big concerns with a rebuild: The need for a lot of good moves, ownership with some urgency, and a little bit of luck... Even if we ditched Ant/Grant/Ayton, the amount of quality moves/luck required to have a roster where winning in the 1st round is the expectation seem unlikely to pull off.
 
Tince said:
I hear you... though I'm not seeing many of the folks saying the rebuild would be fun, actually enjoying it.

You bring up one of my big concerns with a rebuild: The need for a lot of good moves, ownership with some urgency, and a little bit of luck... Even if we ditched Ant/Grant/Ayton, the amount of quality moves/luck required to have a roster where winning in the 1st round is the expectation seem unlikely to pull off.
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I just didn't imagine that the rebuild would include us giving so much usage to guys whose games are already so established in this league (Ant, Jerami, Deandre). Shaedon having surgery was a real bummer, Scoot having missed so many games has been a bummer and us not fully committing to the rebuild by really tanking has been kind of confusing.

Oh and I was not one who wanted a rebuild until Joe "couldn't" move our picks to go all in around Dame.
 
blazerkor said:
I just didn't imagine that the rebuild would include us giving so much usage to guys whose games are already so established in this league (Ant, Jerami, Deandre). Shaedon having surgery was a real bummer, Scoot having missed so many games has been a bummer and us not fully committing to the rebuild by really tanking has been kind of confusing.

Oh and I was not one who wanted a rebuild until Joe "couldn't" move our picks to go all in around Dame.
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Good post!

Giving usage to guys who are 24 and 25 years old and some of the best players on the roster shouldn't be alarming (in my eyes), even in a rebuild. I doubt Billups and Cronin have the job security required to just play guys who are 22 and under.
 
Tince said:
Good post!

Giving usage to guys who are 24 and 25 years old and some of the best players on the roster shouldn't be alarming (in my eyes), even in a rebuild. I doubt Billups and Cronin have the job security required to just play guys who are 22 and under.
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before Brogdon got injured, in the last 3 games that all the vets were healthy, these were the minutes in two of those games (the other was a blowout win):

Bucks game:
upload_2024-3-10_22-42-32.png

Bulls Game:

upload_2024-3-10_22-44-5.png

Brogdon and Grant aren't 24 & 25; they are 30 & 31 (and Thybulle is 27). And I don't think there's much doubt that if they were healthy right now, they'd be getting heavy minutes along with Ant and Ayton. And the Blazers would have probably logged a couple more wins and be in danger of possibly falling from 5th to 7th in the lottery. I think Billups wants to win games at this point, no matter how much that outcome might negatively impact Portland's draft chances

I don't think it's a huge issue, but it does seem to be just another area where the mission of the team is muddled by cross-purposes
 
wizenheimer said:
before Brogdon got injured, in the last 3 games that all the vets were healthy, these were the minutes in two of those games (the other was a blowout win):

Bucks game:
View attachment 63737

Bulls Game:

View attachment 63738

Brogdon and Grant aren't 24 & 25; they are 30 & 31 (and Thybulle is 27). And I don't think there's much doubt that if they were healthy right now, they'd be getting heavy minutes along with Ant and Ayton. And the Blazers would have probably logged a couple more wins and be in danger of possibly falling from 5th to 7th in the lottery. I think Billups wants to win games at this point, no matter how much that outcome might negatively impact Portland's draft chances

I don't think it's a huge issue, but it does seem to be just another area where the mission of the team is muddled by cross-purposes
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I was talking about Ant and Ayton (2 of the 3 players mentioned in the post I responded to). They are, in fact, 24 and 25.

I agree about Billups. I doubt he's been given any sort of long assurances in Portland, so I fully understand why he'd want to win. If the Blazers are lucky enough to make it out of this, he's highly unlikely to still be the coach.

This season has been brutal enough, the last thing I want to do is replace Ant/Ayton's minutes with more Rupert, Brown, and Murray minutes. If the young guys who have a realistic chance of being good are playing 24mpg, that's more than enough for me.
 
Also, toronto keeping their pick this summer is absolutely vital for any western conference team.

Spurs own that pick unless Toronto ends up in the top 6. I want nothing to do with SA owning a surging Wemby and two top 10 picks this summer.
 
illmatic99 said:
Also, toronto keeping their pick this summer is absolutely vital for any western conference team.

Spurs own that pick unless Toronto ends up in the top 6. I want nothing to do with SA owning a surging Wemby and two top 10 picks this summer.
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Disagree. Id rather the Spurs get the pick ~#10 for this questionable draft, than a similar pick next year.
 
Tince said:
I was talking about Ant and Ayton (2 of the 3 players mentioned in the post I responded to). They are, in fact, 24 and 25.

I agree about Billups. I doubt he's been given any sort of long assurances in Portland, so I fully understand why he'd want to win. If the Blazers are lucky enough to make it out of this, he's highly unlikely to still be the coach.

This season has been brutal enough, the last thing I want to do is replace Ant/Ayton's minutes with more Rupert, Brown, and Murray minutes. If the young guys who have a realistic chance of being good are playing 24mpg, that's more than enough for me.
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yeah....I wasn't coming at you; sorry if it seemed that way

I was just pointing out that those people who think that Billups has been over-playing the vets, which can derail the tank a little, have some justification for that view. Portland's version of the veteran unit...Ant-Brogdon-Thybulle-Grant-Ayton....has the offensive ability to win an uncomfortable number of close games. Portland needs to use sparingly

Sharpe has averaged 33 minutes when available; Scoot 27; Camara 24; Banton 23; Walker 22; Reath 18. Those are acceptable numbers. But they could be a little higher. If Billups had been a little more strategic with his minutes distribution in the OT wins against Memphis and Toronto, the Blazers would be 1/2 game behind Charlotte for 4th, and 2.5 games behind the Spurs for 3rd. And 5 games ahead of Memphis instead of only 3
 
wizenheimer said:
yeah....I wasn't coming at you; sorry if it seemed that way

I was just pointing out that those people who think that Billups has been over-playing the vets, which can derail the tank a little, have some justification for that view. Portland's version of the veteran unit...Ant-Brogdon-Thybulle-Grant-Ayton....has the offensive ability to win an uncomfortable number of close games. Portland needs to use sparingly

Sharpe has averaged 33 minutes when available; Scoot 27; Camara 24; Banton 23; Walker 22; Reath 18. Those are acceptable numbers. But they could be a little higher. If Billups had been a little more strategic with his minutes distribution in the OT wins against Memphis and Toronto, the Blazers would be 1/2 game behind Charlotte for 4th, and 2.5 games behind the Spurs for 3rd. And 5 games ahead of Memphis instead of only 3
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Billups is in a no-win situation. Fans criticize him for winning and for losing.
I guarantee that some fans will point to his overall record as our HC and want him fired. Will he deserve it? Maybe but not based on his record. This season was supposed to be about developing Scoot and Sharpe. Scoot has dramatically gotten better despite his injuries. Sharpe's injury on the other hand really sucked. A wasted season.
 
wizenheimer said:
I was just pointing out that those people who think that Billups has been over-playing the vets, which can derail the tank a little, have some justification for that view. Portland's version of the veteran unit...Ant-Brogdon-Thybulle-Grant-Ayton....has the offensive ability to win an uncomfortable number of close games. Portland needs to use sparingly

Sharpe has averaged 33 minutes when available; Scoot 27; Camara 24; Banton 23; Walker 22; Reath 18. Those are acceptable numbers. But they could be a little higher. If Billups had been a little more strategic with his minutes distribution in the OT wins against Memphis and Toronto, the Blazers would be 1/2 game behind Charlotte for 4th, and 2.5 games behind the Spurs for 3rd. And 5 games ahead of Memphis instead of only 3
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I agree with you.

I don't know what the right balance is between trying to be competitive, blindly playing your young guys, and actively trying to lose at all costs. I know I don't want to be "all-in" on any one of those three. Brogdon playing around 24 minutes and Grant playing around 28 seems appropriate to me, assuming everyone is healthy. I like the minute breakout you provided for the young guys. I'm not sure how much extra value is gained from playing them all another 5 minutes a game. I think we've seen with Scoot, that there can be value in pulling back where he fits in the rotation, and putting him in a position to succeed.

I do agree it's best for us to lose games from a pure mathematics standpoint. I guess the question is how much value does the extra 1.3% improved lottery odds benefit the franchise vs getting competitive experience with different combos (Ant w/Scoot, Camara w/Grant, Ayton w/Walker) so the front office has a better idea of what will work moving forward. I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't think it's binary (nor am I implying you think that).
 
illmatic99 said:
Also, toronto keeping their pick this summer is absolutely vital for any western conference team.

Spurs own that pick unless Toronto ends up in the top 6. I want nothing to do with SA owning a surging Wemby and two top 10 picks this summer.
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Better to have them for THIS draft then NEXT.
 
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