35pts, 17rbs, 3ast, 2stl, 0to

[EL PRESIDENTE]

More than Miller is now (Miller is what came of the imaginary cap space, btw)? I am not sure about that. ZBo is a better scorer - but he usually makes most people around him worse. Miller runs a team much better and for most people is actually a lot of help. Add the fact that he actually tries to play defense...Well, the idea was to have tons of cap space. Unfortunately, the Griz screwed us over and the NBA did nothing to stop them... So - it's Memphis, Darius and David Stern that screwed us, not the zBo trade.

Miller is a temporary band-aid. Not the PGOF we were all promised by the ZBO haters and Tom Penn nutriders. It wasn't only ZBO's contract that turned into miller. It was other things, including letting RLEC expire. Miller was a second choice and hasn't worked out that well. We made the playoffs, which we would have done with this team and ZBO anyways, but we didn't make it out of the first round.

 

[RoyToy]

And now its an 18 million dollar expiring, which does have value. in the mean time he's been solid as a rock and an NBA allstar.

So the Blazers should have kept ZBO all this time?

Talk about a bad idea. Francis' contract expired like 3 years ago. That's why it wasn't nearly as bad as Randolph's.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

How can you say that it has value as an expiring when you are also saying that Raef's expiring was not?

The reality is that due to the Darius fiasco we can come down and say it was zBo or Miller (an expiring as well, btw) - and it is very hard for anyone to think that zBo is actually better. Miller, for all his warts - actually manages to take his teams to the playoffs, something a zBo team has not been able to do since he was a backup for 'Sheed...

You're looking at teams that wouldn't make the playoffs with or without ZBO anyways and taking them as fact. Put ZBO instead of Miller on last year's team, its still a playoff team. Put Andre Miller instead of ZBO on that memphis team and they still are below .500.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

So the Blazers should have kept ZBO all this time?

Talk about a bad idea.

Wouldn't have made a difference the last 3 years. Would have been better with having some low post scoring, which we never really had. Blazers always get killed on points in the paint.

What, would have held back Aldridge's growth? no. He's only recently gotten better.

 

[Trader Ed]

9 of those rebounds are offensive...

how many of those 9 are his own?

 

[RoyToy]

Wouldn't have made a difference the last 3 years. Would have been better with having some low post scoring, which we never really had. Blazers always get killed on points in the paint.

What, would have held back Aldridge's growth? no. He's only recently gotten better.

Paying Randolph that much to come off the bench would have been a terrible idea.

 

[andalusian]

You're looking at teams that wouldn't make the playoffs with or without ZBO anyways and taking them as fact. Put ZBO instead of Miller on last year's team, its still a playoff team. Put Andre Miller instead of ZBO on that memphis team and they still are below .500.

I disagree.

We have seen zBo with a healthy Roy and LMA on the team, it came down to a 32 win season. Heck, with the injuries we had last year - the Griz had more talent around zBo than Portland did and failed to make the playoffs in the same conference. Gay, Mayo, Gasol, Conley... - that's some respectable talent on this team...

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I disagree.

We have seen zBo with a healthy Roy and LMA on the team, it came down to a 32 win season. Heck, with the injuries we had last year - the Griz had more talent around zBo than Portland did and failed to make the playoffs in the same conference. Gay, Mayo, Gasol, Conley... - that's some respectable talent on this team...

You mean we've seen zBO with a ROOKIE Roy and LMA on the team. Its not like you stick ZBO on that team and they are magically a lotto team once again.

And when has that grizzlies franchise ever made the playoffs?

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Paying Randolph that much to come off the bench would have been a terrible idea.

Not looking back in hindsight. With injuries him and LMA could have played together nicely...better than Cunningham. Or Travis Outlaw as a PF.

It was a helluva lot better than paying Steve Francis $14m a year to get drunk in the Caribbean.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

what ever happened to ZBO's impending felony dog fighting charges? I remember a lot of people were bringing that up at the time too. Plus Roy was the one who motioned for him to get traded?

 

[Ed O]

9 of those rebounds are offensive...

how many of those 9 are his own?

Four. Three of them came on one possession. (According to http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=301229023&period=0 )

Ed O.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

FYI, that's around 2:30 to go in the 4th where he has that flurry (the link doesn't take you straight there).

 

[RoyToy]

Not looking back in hindsight. With injuries him and LMA could have played together nicely...better than Cunningham. Or Travis Outlaw as a PF.

It was a helluva lot better than paying Steve Francis $14m a year to get drunk in the Caribbean.

Aldridge and Przy played together just fine and the Blazers actually had a winning record. When Randolph/Przy played together and Randolph/Aldridge as well...not the case.

Taking the future cap space and letting a young team develop was easily the better move imo considering the team hasn't had a losing season since and hosted a playoff series only 2 years after trading ZBO.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Aldridge and Przy played together just fine and the Blazers actually had a winning record. When Randolph/Przy played together and Randolph/Aldridge as well...not the case.

Taking the future cap space and letting a young team develop was easily the better move imo considering the team hasn't had a losing season since and hosted a playoff series only 2 years after trading ZBO.

The future cap space crippled KP from making any moves. They overvalued it, didn't use RLEC, etc. Too much of a crutch. Addition by subtraction is horrible...now we have what we have, no depth, weak bench, no backup PF, nothing. I'm not saying ZBO was a part of the long term picture here, but that trade was horrible. It didn't make Aldridge any better. in the long run it hurt the team alot.

And as for your comment about having a team not having a losing season since....the blazers were rising from the rebuild, of course they're going to start winning. Its the natural progression of things.

 

[RoyToy]

The future cap space crippled KP from making any moves. They overvalued it, didn't use RLEC, etc. Too much of a crutch. Addition by subtraction is horrible...now we have what we have, no depth, weak bench, no backup PF, nothing. I'm not saying ZBO was a part of the long term picture here, but that trade was horrible. It didn't make Aldridge any better. in the long run it hurt the team alot.

And as for your comment about having a team not having a losing season since....the blazers were rising from the rebuild, of course they're going to start winning. Its the natural progression of things.

RLEC turned into Andre Miller. He did use it. Saying he didn't is not true.

Trading Randolph over 3 years ago is not the reason this team has no depth this season, lol. I also don't see how it hurt the teams long-term future at all. The team hasn't had to pay his albatross of a contract and they've made the playoffs two years in a row. Randolph on the other hand hasn't been been in the playoffs since the 2002-2003 season. So, yeah, I just don't see it.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

RLEC turned into Andre Miller. He did use it. Saying he didn't is not true.

Trading Randolph over 3 years ago is not the reason this team has no depth this season, lol. I also don't see how it hurt the teams long-term future at all. The team hasn't had to pay his albatross of a contract and they've made the playoffs two years in a row. Randolph on the other hand hasn't been been in the playoffs since the 2002-2003 season. So, yeah, I just don't see it.

ZBO's cap savings + RLEC turned into Andre Miller, which, for all the hype and expertise of "cap genius tom penn" was just horrible. KP and Penn were essentially snake oil salesmen when it came to cap space.

They had a plan in 08 to go after a bunch of FAs. This was even before the Miles medical retirement exception, so that is moot. The team did pay his albatross of a contract in the form of Steve Francis, which was IMO a lot worse. Moves were possibly available but they were so invested in the 08 cap "plan" (there really was no plan) they were relatively immobile from getting better.

ZBO has always been on historically bad teams that never make the playoffs. Knicks, Grizzlies, Clippers...so really not much to say there. He was on the blazers and carried this team on his back during one of the biggest blow ups in franchise history then tossed aside for table scraps. It was a bad trade at the time and in retrospect it still was. Whether we made the playoffs was irrelevant, the blazers would have made it anyways with those rosters.

 

[BoBoBREWSKI]

There would be zero ball movement with Roy and Zbo on the same team. Both dont pass once they have the rock.

 

[RoyToy]

ZBO's cap savings + RLEC turned into Andre Miller, which, for all the hype and expertise of "cap genius tom penn" was just horrible. KP and Penn were essentially snake oil salesmen when it came to cap space.

They had a plan in 08 to go after a bunch of FAs. This was even before the Miles medical retirement exception, so that is moot. The team did pay his albatross of a contract in the form of Steve Francis, which was IMO a lot worse. Moves were possibly available but they were so invested in the 08 cap "plan" (there really was no plan) they were relatively immobile from getting better.

ZBO has always been on historically bad teams that never make the playoffs. Knicks, Grizzlies, Clippers...so really not much to say there. He was on the blazers and carried this team on his back during one of the biggest blow ups in franchise history then tossed aside for table scraps. It was a bad trade at the time and in retrospect it still was. Whether we made the playoffs was irrelevant, the blazers would have made it anyways with those rosters.

If the team still had ZBO at that point they wouldn't have had that cap space. Get it now? That's why his contract was worse than Francis'.

That said, letting RLEC actually expire is what gave them the room to sign a FA, and they did. That's using the RLEC. Trade, FA signing, doesn't matter. Same thing. They got the value out of it. Saying they screwed it up is not true.

It was already explained to you the Darius Miles fiasco is what killed the master plan. Instead of having about $15M(I don't remember exactly) they were left with just enough to sign Miller. It's not that difficult of a situation to understand.

 

[RoyToy]

There would be zero ball movement with Roy and Zbo on the same team. Both dont pass once they have the rock.

True about ZBO.

Roy, however, is/was a distributor as well as a scorer.

 

[PapaG]

If the team still had ZBO at that point they wouldn't have had that cap space. Get it now? That's why his contract was worse than Francis'.

That said, letting RLEC actually expire is what gave them the room to sign a FA, and they did. That's using the RLEC. Trade, FA signing, doesn't matter. Same thing. They got the value out of it. Saying they screwed it up is not true.

It was already explained to you the Darius Miles fiasco is what killed the master plan. Instead of having about $15M(I don't remember exactly) they were left with just enough to sign Miller. It's not that difficult of a situation to understand.

I explained that to him a few weeks ago as well. Clearly the guy has no interest in the facts surrounding RLEC/Miles and how it netted Miller. If Hedo Turkoglu had signed here, then that would be a waste of RLEC, IMO.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

If the team still had ZBO at that point they wouldn't have had that cap space. Get it now? That's why his contract was worse than Francis'.

That said, letting RLEC actually expire is what gave them the room to sign a FA, and they did. That's using the RLEC. Trade, FA signing, doesn't matter. Same thing. They got the value out of it. Saying they screwed it up is not true.

It was already explained to you the Darius Miles fiasco is what killed the master plan. Instead of having about $15M(I don't remember exactly) they were left with just enough to sign Miller. It's not that difficult of a situation to understand.

That cap space = terrible. Miller isn't the PGOF. He was merely a stopgap and a second option. KPs first plan was to get a SF anyways (Hedo). They had no plan. FA market sucked balls. Relying on a player under contract to medically retire is not a plan at all. If that's the master plan of a "future dynasty" (as the blazers had been touted), they are not going to be a future dynasty (as we are at this point now).

 

[PapaG]

There would be zero ball movement with Roy and Zbo on the same team. Both dont pass once they have the rock.

Roy averages 5 apg for his career playing SG.

As a comparison, Andre Miller averages 7 apg as a PG.

Opinions are fun, but sometimes facts blow them up.

KABOOM!

 

[PapaG]

That cap space = terrible. Miller isn't the PGOF. He was merely a stopgap and a second option. KPs first plan was to get a SF anyways (Hedo). They had no plan. FA market sucked balls. Relying on a player under contract to medically retire is not a plan at all. If that's the master plan of a "future dynasty" (as the blazers had been touted), they are not going to be a future dynasty (as we are at this point now).

Randolph has bounced around the league, from bad teams to a mediocre team, while being paid as a franchise player.

I'd have given him away for free if I was the GM. You can bitch about the past, but the actual facts show that the Blazers improved immediately without ZBO, while Zach has still yet to even sniff the playoffs as a starter.

I do agree about Miller being a third option, though. Had Hedo signed with Portland, I'd have been fine with KP being fired. What a disastrous move that was; thank goodness Hedo's wife didn't like Portland.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I explained that to him a few weeks ago as well. Clearly the guy has no interest in the facts surrounding RLEC/Miles and how it netted Miller. If Hedo Turkoglu had signed here, then that would be a waste of RLEC, IMO.

Zach Traded June 28, 2007.
Darius Miles waived for medical retirement on April 14, 2008. His doctor exam to determine if he could play again was March 08.

The capspace 08 plan ("master plan") was being "formulated" at the time of the ZBO trade. Miles was just icing on the cake and wasn't until a bit later.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Randolph has bounced around the league, from bad teams to a mediocre team, while being paid as a franchise player.

I'd have given him away for free if I was the GM. You can bitch about the past, but the actual facts show that the Blazers improved immediately without ZBO, while Zach has still yet to even sniff the playoffs as a starter.

That's why you would be a terrible GM. Pritchard actually gave him away for less than zero...in the form of having a bad contract with NO PLAYER ont he books for 2 seasons at $14 million a year.

The Blazers were on the upswing from rebuilding. They were improving anyways, with or without ZBO.

 

[RoyToy]

That cap space = terrible. Miller isn't the PGOF. He was merely a stopgap and a second option. KPs first plan was to get a SF anyways (Hedo). They had no plan. FA market sucked balls. Relying on a player under contract to medically retire is not a plan at all. If that's the master plan of a "future dynasty" (as the blazers had been touted), they are not going to be a future dynasty (as we are at this point now).

It wasn't the master plan for a future dynasty. Those pieces at the time were already in place with Roy/Aldridge/Oden. It was all about the adding to that, and they did by adding a veteran PG.

You can keep saying they had no plan but that just doesn't seem to be true.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

It wasn't the master plan for a future dynasty. Those pieces at the time were already in place with Roy/Aldridge/Oden. It was all about the adding to that, and they did by adding a veteran PG.

You can keep saying they had no plan but that just doesn't seem to be true.

If that's true then why was option #1 Hedo Turkoglu? He's not a veteran PG. And if he had signed here, he would have been terrible. Its just dumb fucking luck that he didn't think Portland was culturally significant enough that we dodged that bullet.

 

[PapaG]

That's why you would be a terrible GM. Pritchard actually gave him away for less than zero...in the form of having a bad contract with NO PLAYER ont he books for 2 seasons at $14 million a year.

The Blazers were on the upswing from rebuilding. They were improving anyways, with or without ZBO.

Your big move as a GM is to say that ZBO would be a nice expiring contract this year. The guy was and is a loser on a bloated contract. Let's not forget that instead of rejoining his teammates after a death in his family, Zach decided to stay in Portland and get lap dances while his teammates were trying to win a game.

Good riddance. I'm not sure I've ever disliked a Blazer player to the degree I loathe StatBO.

 

[RoyToy]

If that's true then why was option #1 Hedo Turkoglu? He's not a veteran PG.

Hedo not being a veteran PG doesn't mean anything. I was simply saying they ended up using the $ on a veteran PG.

They did want Hedo though because he was a similar player to Roy in that he's a distributor as well as a scorer. Not nearly as good, but that was his style while playing with the Magic.

 

[RoyToy]

Btw, since being traded back to the Magic Hedo is averaging 12pts/5asts/4rebs on 43% shooting from 3.

I think he just went to some teams that didn't fit for him. I was against the signing but think he had a better chance to play better here than in Toronto and Phoenix.