OT ACAB All Cops Are Bastards (yes EVERY one)

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yankeesince59 said:
#796
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I like how you refuse to quote it because it doesn't actually say what you claim.

Shutting down a police department is not arbitrarily firing everyone. It's shutting down a police department.

Just like Camden did, and they didn't get stopped by any of the lawsuits or anything else you claimed.

Straw men are awesome. Until the wind blows.
 
Nope;

"..the best thing to do is start replacing police departments wholesale. From top to bottom.

Get rid of everyone, and only hire back the good ones."

Because just as now, it always leads to same ole tired BS ...."I didn't say what I said". And I'm by no means the only one who has observed this lame pattern...and the "ignore" thingy simply makes viewing threads to confusing.

So I don't quote or directly respond to certain posters.

Camden did not fire and then hire back the "good" cops. Shutting down police departments will leave citizens defenseless...loling at the master plan.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
Nope;

"..the best thing to do is start replacing police departments wholesale. From top to bottom.

Get rid of everyone, and only hire back the good ones."

Because just as now, it always leads to same ole tired BS ...."I didn't say what I said". And I'm by no means the only one who has observed this lame pattern...and the "ignore" thingy simply makes viewing threads to confusing.

So I don't quote or directly respond to certain posters.

Camden did not fire and then hire back the "good" cops. Shutting down police departments will leave citizens defenseless...loling at the master plan.
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So it doesn't actually say what you claim. It specifically says
replacing police departments wholesale
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Which is exactly what Camden did. They replaced their city police with the county metro police. They also hired some of the good ones from the city police back to be police again with the Metro police.

And I have referenced Camden as an example to follow throughout this conversation, so that's even more clear.

So yes, it works.

If you can show how the Camden example failed or specifics about why it wouldn't work in other places (or better yet, other places it's been tried and not worked) we could actually get on with a productive conversation rather then the petty tit for tat BS. Which is what I think we'd all prefer.
 
yankeesince59 said:
#796
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If you shut down a city police department and hire some of the officers to work for an expanded sheriff's department you would be in fact firing everyone from the city department because the city department would no longer exist.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
If you shut down a city police department and hire some of the officers to work for an expanded sheriff's department you would be in fact firing everyone from the city department because the city department would no longer exist.
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Yes, and again, I would imagine you would be leaving yourself open for one helluva lawsuit...besides, "Camden" didn't resort to doing it that way.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Yes, and again, I would imagine you would be leaving yourself open for one helluva lawsuit...besides, "Camden" didn't resort to doing it that way.
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And as I've been suggesting Camden repeatedly, I'm obviously suggesting we follow that model.

But it does help the straw man argument to suggest otherwise...

I notice that you haven't been able to show any drawbacks from that model.
 
I'm not the one who incessantly pretends to have all the answers...and I'm also not the only one who also sees through it.
 
yankeesince59 said:
I'm not the one who incessantly pretends to have all the answers...and I'm also not the only one who also sees through it.
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I don't engage in debate if I can't contribute productively. If I don't have anything to back it up I shut up and read the discussion.

So, what you appear to be saying is you can show no drawbacks to the model you appear to be arguing against, just more personal attacks and straw men.

I don't get it. If you don't want to engage in productive debate why wade in?

shrug-shoulders.gif
 
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SlyPokerDog said:
If you shut down a city police department and hire some of the officers to work for an expanded sheriff's department you would be in fact firing everyone from the city department because the city department would no longer exist.
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But not "arbitrarily". You would be closing an unproductive department and hiring the most qualified people into another department.

This happens all the time in business and in government.

Which is what Camden did.

If somebody thinks there is a drawback to what Camden did I'd love to see it.
 
No one, as far as I know of, has said there are or are not drawbacks...but if Camden is some sort of Panacea, why aren't more cities/ counties implementing it? Camden started on its current path about 10 years ago but aside from violent crimes, they still have some serious obstacles to overcome...and those obstacles cannot/are not being overcome by changes in in the police department alone.

As I've pointed to multiple times, the problem isn't so much having to do with the police, as it does with the culture in many cities/areas. And without cultural changes, changes in police procedure alone, won't solve the issue.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I don't engage in debate if I can't contribute productively. If I don't have anything to back it up I shut up and read the discussion.

So, what you appear to be saying is you can show no drawbacks to the model you appear to be arguing against, just more personal attacks and straw men.

I don't get it. If you don't want to engage in productive debate why wade in?

shrug-shoulders.gif
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you’re a liar.

You engaged with this tool (of a post).
 
I engage because there are others who post in this thread whose opinions I actually value.
 
yankeesince59 said:
No one, as far as I know of, has said there are or are not drawbacks...but if Camden is some sort of Panacea, why aren't more cities/ counties implementing it? Camden started on its current path about 10 years ago but aside from violent crimes, they still have some serious obstacles to overcome...and those obstacles cannot/are not being overcome by changes in in the police department alone.

As I've pointed to multiple times, the problem isn't so much having to do with the police, as it does with the culture in many cities/areas. And without cultural changes, changes in police procedure alone, won't solve the issue.
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I'm totally fine with Portland only reducing violent crime and theft 70% the way Camden has done.

What more were you hoping to see?

Portland nowhere near most dangerous cities in the US, new study of crime data shows

“Cities that have higher costs and standards of living tend to also have lower levels of violent crime,” says Milnes. “Overall what we’re seeing is that the cities that have both a higher cost of living and a more suburban-feel than our major metro areas tend to be safer. This is likely to be even more true for specific neighborhoods or sections of cities.”
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So if we can fix the police and get our homelessness in homes (which we have funded, remains to be seen if our leaders can figure out how to make it happen), and treat our sick, we'd likely have nicer neighborhoods with higher quality of living.

And that tends to correlate with a safer and more productive culture.

More so than anything else, from the reading I've done.
 
yankeesince59 said:
I engage because there are others who post in this thread whose opinions I actually value.
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You value their opinion so much that you refuse to support your dissenting claims with any substance.

Leaving me no choice but to engage with you in order to maintain a productive dialogue in the thread.

Unsupported claims are far too often the same strawmen that have caused our society so much trouble.
 
 

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Everything Beagle said:
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In more recent Georgia police news:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-marshal-georgia-officer-indicted-death-man-shot-76-n1282479

https://www.cnn.com/2021/11/22/us/georgia-officers-indicted-murder/index.html

https://www.11alive.com/article/new...-word/85-0c81395b-9623-41bf-afaa-4146fd5530fa

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/us/georgia-camden-jail-beating-arrest.html

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...-child-molestation-sexual-battery/ar-AA1eQbem

I wonder if life-saving is tracked as a -1 on the police-caused deaths meter.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...s-boy-ps5-after-cops-were-called/70474867007/

https://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/ge...d-deed-back-sheriffs-office/story?id=32073763

https://nationalpolice.org/main/str...hings-happen-when-great-people-work-together/

https://www.gpb.org/news/2022/09/07/georgia-police-embrace-community-outreach-address-crime

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/be...eed-caught-camera/RAEDMRWKC5FMXI5SR3U5GGAERQ/
 
 
Phatguysrule said:
Well, you wouldn't ever have a situation where there were no police. You'd have a replacement built up and ready to go.

In Portland that would probably be the Metro division of the Multnomah County Sheriff's Department.

Then you start adding back from there with new standards and expectations.

That's what Camden, NJ did, and it worked well.

You won't have a situation in which you have no police, but you'll be understaffed at first.

But being understaffed with police who are actually doing their job with the proper intentions would be much better than what we have now.
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gotcha. It initially read to me as get rid of them all first and then hire new ones. Thanks for explaining, those details very much matter.
I think most all of us understand there is a foundational flaw with how current law enforcement agencies operate. There is also still a need for peaceable presence to keep the ones with bad intentions in check, or deterred.

I see more and more stories of officers trying to create report with the neighborhoods they patrol. Trying to participate in community events etc.
If… when the time comes where overhauls are happening in an increasing fashion. I would hope these good cops will seize the moment and turn on their fellow bad cops. There are good cops out there, they also want to keep their jobs because they believe they can still do more good on the streets than unemployed.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Thank you ! Glad someone "gets it" ! Blindly and arbitrarily firing everyone then rehiring the pick of the litter without a well thought out contingency plan beforehand, is "horse and buggy" thinking.
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It seems you might have a bit different landscape of corruption in your areas. What you described about the local sheriff is not right.
People don't want to stand up and demand change through voice and protests?
 
BlazerBender said:
I see more and more stories of officers trying to create report with the neighborhoods they patrol. Trying to participate in community events etc.
If… when the time comes where overhauls are happening in an increasing fashion. I would hope these good cops will seize the moment and turn on their fellow bad cops. There are good cops out there, they also want to keep their jobs because they believe they can still do more good on the streets than unemployed.
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So "all cops are not bastards".
 
BlazerBender said:
It seems you might have a bit different landscape of corruption in your areas. What you described about the local sheriff is not right.
People don't want to stand up and demand change through voice and protests?
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No, I think it's more of a case of "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"...and sadly, that seems to be precisely the mindset many voters have.
 
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