Addition by subtraction

[Scalma]

This is really a strawman. Nurk has inferior stats to Whiteside across the board. But we can almost unanimously agree that he is a better player, no? What goal posts are moving?

One player's stats impact winning, the other's don't.

RPM ranked Nurkic as a top 5 center last year. What stats are you valuing exactly?

 

[illmatic99]

Oh and let’s be real, Lillard is an awful lob passer, that’s not all on whiteside. Of course his personal manager won’t mention it. And that shit was written in November, they’ve gotten a lot better since.

Not to prolong this, but I find it fascinating that I'm seemingly the only one with this opinion.

Dame had instant chemistry with Nurk. He had terrific P&R chemistry with the likes of Hickson and Collins/Rolo/etc. Hell, he even had decent timing down with Joel Freeland. Dame unequivocally is terrible at throwing lobs-- definitely agree with that, but he also had far better spacing and open lanes with nearly every other big he has played with.

 

[illmatic99]

RPM ranked Nurkic as a top 5 center last year. What stats are you valuing exactly?

Clearly this should be the go-to stat.

PER/VORP/raw numbers/etc all are hiding more than they show.

 

[Scalma]

Not to prolong this, but I find it fascinating that I'm seemingly the only one with this opinion.

Dame had instant chemistry with Nurk. He had terrific P&R chemistry with the likes of Hickson and Collins/Rolo/etc. Hell, he even had decent timing down with Joel Freeland. Dame unequivocally is bad at terrible at throwing lobs-- definitely agree with that, but he also had far better spacing and open lanes with nearly every other big he has played with.

Nurkic is an elite screener (so was Rolo) maybe the best in the game (it’s either him or Adams imo) and has plus agility for a player his size. Collins has had his own struggles in the pick and roll, I don’t agree that he’s better than Whiteside, or that he sets better screens. Whiteside had his struggles early but has gotten a lot better over the season and their chemistry is fine now. We’re not losing because the offense isn’t good enough. They’re right outside the top ten in ppg and in the top ten in 3PT %.

 

[wizenheimer]

Clearly this should be the go-to stat.

PER/VORP/raw numbers/etc all are hiding more than they show.

that's you wanting to isolate on one single stat that confirms your bias

last year, Nurkic was playing with Aminu, Harkless, Zach, Turner, Curry on a team that had a .646 winning percentage while Whiteside has been playing with much lesser players like Tolliver and and Hezonja on a team with a .425 winning percentage. Of course Nurk is going to post better numbers in a stat that is gauging wins

 

[illmatic99]

RPM ranks Dennis Schroeder as the best PG in the game this season. Just FYI.

I get its premise and it's prolly a better catch all stat than others, but it too has its flaws. Here are the SG rankings:

 

[tlongII]

He's not a winner. I don't like lazy players like that. BFD. I want him off my team. Is that really vitriolic hate?


Stats be damned-- they freaking lie. Here are some unheralded centers I think would make our team better than Whiteside:

- Daniel Theis
- Richaun Holmes
- Gorgui Dieng
- Aron Baynes
- Ivica Zubac
- Derrick Favors
- Poeltl plays fucking HARD. Something Whiteside only does on occasion

Sorry dude, but Whiteside is far better than any of those guys.

 

[wizenheimer]

RPM ranks Dennis Schroeder as the best PG in the game this season. Just FYI.

I get its premise and it's prolly a better catch all stat than others, but it too has its flaws.

now there's something I agree with

all stats are going to have noise and produce outliers. comparing stats for a player averaging 35 minutes with a player averaging 19 minutes is going to produce skew. Same with comparing stats for a starter and a backup because the competition will be unbalanced. If you're using stats to inform, it's better to look at a wide variety of stats and use them to augment the eye test

 

[illmatic99]

Sorry dude, but Whiteside is far better than any of those guys.

Individually, without a doubt.

On this team, with the rest of this roster, I think I'd take all of them and our guy Plums ahead of him.

 

[CupWizier]

RPM ranks Dennis Schroeder as the best PG in the game this season. Just FYI.

I get its premise and it's prolly a better catch all stat than others, but it too has its flaws. Here are the SG rankings:

View attachment 29652

That's a rather flawed list as I would eliminate anyone with under 20mpg as well as Doncic as he is clearly the Mavs point guard, not shooting guard.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Do you think Whiteside has anything to do with the great season Lillard is having?

I think that Lillard is having such a "great" season because he has to do so much more. He has the ball so much because we have one fewer player who knows what to do with it on offense. Before he could give it to Nurk and have him create. Give it to Whiteside and he's shooting or turning it over. So yes, Lillard is scoring more and getting more assists, but his RPM and WINS are well down.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

RPM ranks Dennis Schroeder as the best PG in the game this season. Just FYI.

I get its premise and it's prolly a better catch all stat than others, but it too has its flaws. Here are the SG rankings:

View attachment 29652

So long as you remember that correlation is not necessarily causation...
What it measures is how well the team does with you as opposed to without you, so (I imagine) starters look better if the bench is crap and so on.
I did notice that one year Kris Middleton was the king of DRPM and he hasn't been particularly exceptional since, so clearly there is some noise. But I think it can also show what big name players aren't as good as their numbers suggest.

 

[tester551]

Certainly not helping as much as stats indicate.​

Do you watch the team when Whiteside is subbed out for rest?
They're typically abysmal. Most of the time, I'm hoping that he gets subbed back in ASAP.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Do you watch the team when Whiteside is subbed out for rest?
They're typically abysmal. Most of the time, I'm hoping that he gets subbed back in ASAP.

...so that they'll rise to the level of mediocre.

 

[TBpup]

"Blazers have arguably the best pick and roll guard in the league and Whiteside can’t play pick and roll and doesn’t move on defense. Terrible fit"

I assume they are talking about offense when they mention (Dame) being the best PnR guard in the league because if they are talking about defense, that is just dead wrong. So they talk about Dame on offense and then switch to Whiteside on defense? That makes no sense. What does one have to do with the other.

Whiteside was a terror on lobs off the PnR with Dragic in Miami. By contrast, he may have got his first dunk off a PnR from Dame just last game for the first time all season.

 

[oldmangrouch]

View attachment 29649
Look who's at #14

Why are you sorting by defensive P/M and not total P/M?

 

[oldmangrouch]

In many decades of following the NBA, I have arrived at the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of "addition by subtraction" cases involve coaching failure! Whiteside doesn't do everything well - but he does some things well. (in other words, he is like every other player) Isn't it the responsibility of the coach to come up with a plan to take advantage of his strengths and cover for his weaknesses?

 

[JDC]

In many decades of following the NBA, I have arrived at the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of "addition by subtraction" cases involve coaching failure! Whiteside doesn't do everything well - but he does some things well. (in other words, he is like every other player) Isn't it the responsibility of the coach to come up with a plan to take advantage of his strengths and cover for his weaknesses?

Hassan is having arguably the best year of his career. Keeping him near the rim defensively and cutting out most of his post ups is a large reason for that.

A lot of people want to bring up the lack of lobs. I think there are a couple factors are at play here.

Like a lot of people have already brought up, Dame is a poor lob passer. But I also think Terry's ball screen philosophy has a huge effect. Our bigs are asked to hold their screens longer than most teams to help our small guards gain the maximum scoring advantage. This limits the pressure the roll man puts on the rim / effects the timing of lob plays as the roll is a bit more delayed.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

"Blazers have arguably the best pick and roll guard in the league and Whiteside can’t play pick and roll and doesn’t move on defense. Terrible fit"

I assume they are talking about offense when they mention (Dame) being the best PnR guard in the league because if they are talking about defense, that is just dead wrong. So they talk about Dame on offense and then switch to Whiteside on defense? That makes no sense. What does one have to do with the other.

Whiteside was a terror on lobs off the PnR with Dragic in Miami. By contrast, he may have got his first dunk off a PnR from Dame just last game for the first time all season.

They're saying Whiteside's not good in the P&R on offense, and that he doesn't move his get on defense. Essentially saying that he doesn't really help the team as much as he should on either end of the court.

 

[hoopsjock]

This isn't totally binary. This is perfect example where stats lie-- there are obviously other situations when they reveal more than does an eye test. When you aggregate all of Hassan's numbers, he should be a definitive all star and an undisputed top 5 C in the game.

Do you think he is?

Also, here's Dame's agent as you have pointed out earlier:



I know I'm not alone in thinking this. Here's Dame:

https://www.blazersedge.com/2019/11...rd-hassan-whiteside-relationship-impact-stats

The Nate Jones quote is from 2.5 months ago.

 

[Blazers Roy]

If we take our horrible perimeter defense and then subtract shot blocking and defensive rebounds, then we'll get an improved defense because minus plus minus is plus

 

[JDC]

Hassan has been our 3rd most important player all year.

His size and presence around the rim on both ends and on the defensive glass have been much needed, especially considering our lack of adequate replacements.

That's not lost on anyone here, I don't think.

 

[HailBlazers]

Sure wish we had Aron Baynes about now..

 

[Terry Stotts]

In many decades of following the NBA, I have arrived at the conclusion that the overwhelming majority of "addition by subtraction" cases involve coaching failure! Whiteside doesn't do everything well - but he does some things well. (in other words, he is like every other player) Isn't it the responsibility of the coach to come up with a plan to take advantage of his strengths and cover for his weaknesses?

No.

 

[BonesJones]

I think that Lillard is having such a "great" season because he has to do so much more. He has the ball so much because we have one fewer player who knows what to do with it on offense. Before he could give it to Nurk and have him create. Give it to Whiteside and he's shooting or turning it over. So yes, Lillard is scoring more and getting more assists, but his RPM and WINS are well down.

RPM has noise.

You bring up his lack of help this year... but that's why I'm even more impressed with how he's upped his efficiency, scoring output, and his assist numbers.