All things Jalen Duren

[handiman]

No Centers in the lottery.

elite wings win championships; not elite centers.

Giannis is closer to a center than he is to a wing. Same for AD, although he's got LeBron there straddling the line between PF and SG/PG.

 

[Predator]

Elite players win championships. Especially elite two-way players.

Is that why Joel, Jokic and Gobert haven’t sniffed a title and they are the best centers in the NBA? Jokic is a two time, back to back, MVP and isn’t even near a title. Many people think Joel should’ve won some MVPs as well.

 

[Natebishop3]

Is that why Joel, Jokic and Gobert haven’t sniffed a title and they are the best centers in the NBA? Jokic is a two time, back to back, MVP and isn’t even near a title. Many people think Joel should’ve won some MVPs as well.

The NBA has moved beyond centers. The pace is just too quick. The days of slow, half-court, plodding offenses are long gone.

 

[Predator]

Dame is not a wing. Should we trade Dame for an elite wing?

If we could trade Dame for an elite wing of the same caliber, yes, which is like a handful of players.

But even then, that’s not an apples to apples comparison and I think you’re trying to be difficult and making a stupid comparison.

Elite wings > elite guards > elite centers in the modern NBA. Everyone knows that.

 

[Predator]

The NBA has moved beyond centers. The pace is just too quick. The days of slow, half-court, plodding offenses are long gone.

I agree, as do many other people. I think the guy I was responding to is intentionally being difficult.

 

[Predator]

Giannis is closer to a center than he is to a wing. Same for AD, although he's got LeBron there straddling the line between PF and SG/PG.

Anthony Davis literally refused to play center ala LMA forcing them to get Drummond (and other centers) and was called soft for years due to his willingness, or lack thereof, to play center.

Giannis also dribbles the ball up the court and initiates the offense a lot of the time and just plows his way into the middle. He plays nothing like a center (that I’ve ever seen). How often does Embiid cross people over from behind the 3pt line and storm in for a jam?

Anyhow, neither of them are similar to a big traditional center.

And AD had an elite 2 way wing (LeBron).

 

[blazerfan11]

If we could trade Dame for an elite wing of the same caliber, yes, which is like a handful of players.

But even then, that’s not an apples to apples comparison and I think you’re trying to be difficult and making a stupid comparison.

Elite wings > elite guards > elite centers in the modern NBA. Everyone knows that.

Tell me, who is the elite wing player that the trailblazers can draft in the 2022 draft?

 

[blazerfan11]

The NBA has moved beyond centers. The pace is just too quick. The days of slow, half-court, plodding offenses are long gone.

Then give me an explanation why the Golden State Warriors used a number 2 pick to draft a Center. That is a much better franchise currently than the Portland trailblazers.

 

[illmatic99]

Then give me an explanation why the Golden State Warriors used a number 2 pick to draft a Center. That is a much better franchise currently than the Portland trailblazers.

not getting your logic. GS made a mistake, so let's also make one?

And also, Wiseman is a better prospect than Duren. far more skilled and better BBIQ.

 

[HansenYang]

Tell me, who is the elite wing player that the trailblazers can draft in the 2022 draft?

Not sure he gets there, but Eason has the best chance.

As I said before, Eason has the best chance of being an elite wing.

 

[Natebishop3]

Then give me an explanation why the Golden State Warriors used a number 2 pick to draft a Center. That is a much better franchise currently than the Portland trailblazers.

They weren't going to take Lamelo. I think Wiseman was probably the BPA at that point. Looking back at that draft, there isn't a clear cut better player taken immediately after him.

 

[Mediocre Man]

As I said before, Eason has the best chance of being an elite wing.

Based on what?

 

[illmatic99]

Based on what?

he's got some of the best advanced stats among all prospects in the draft this year on both ends of the floor.

and his combine measurements are terrific.

i would take eason before duren @ 7 if we don't trade down.

 

[Pinwheel1]

not getting your logic. GS made a mistake, so let's also make one?

And also, Wiseman is a better prospect than Duren. far more skilled and better BBIQ.

If Wiseman hadn't got hurt would it still be a mistake? I guess one could argue that centers are more likely to get hurt
so don't draft them high. But talent-wise I don't think it was a mistake. Although I think Duren is a better defender.

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

Name a team that doesn't have an elite big who would NOT want to have Jokic or Embiid on their team AND pay them.
Since I expect no takers ...

I agree with others that expecting a center, today, to lead a team in scoring is unlikely. Guards and wings. But having a center who is elite and does just that? Be happy that's what you've got. Punish teams inside and out, get to the line, put them in foul trouble ... a 6'10, 250 lb. Banchero could easily be called a 'modern day' center. And he's slotted for Top 4.

At 7 (assuming Portland uses it), is there is a BIG worth that pick? BPA and tiers. If it's in conjunction with trades, do the Blazers come out better for the pick and trade?
I don't have Duren as my top pick at 7. He's not higher than 3rd or 4th out of about 6. He is the ONLY center (with the 3 forwards being forwards at the top of the draft) who I see in the top 10. Maybe the whole lottery. Conversely, there isn't an average size PG or SG (outside of Ivey or maybe Sharpe) that I'd want there, either.

But I will say this: If Portland picks Duren (either trading down to 9 or staying at 7), then I'm hoping they see him as THAT guy who will make a trade (or sign and trade) of Nurkic happen for a forward. [Looking at you, Toronto.][3-teamer with Phoenix, etc.]

 

[HansenYang]

Based on what?

he's got some of the best advanced stats among all prospects in the draft this year on both ends of the floor.

and his combine measurements are terrific.

i would take eason before duren @ 7 if we don't trade down.

What Illmatic said...

Also, Eason is one of the few players that can 'take over' a game.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

 

[blazerfan11]

he's got some of the best advanced stats among all prospects in the draft this year on both ends of the floor.

and his combine measurements are terrific.

i would take eason before duren @ 7 if we don't trade down.

He could end up being a very good 3-and-d player. 80 percent free-throw shooting is a bonus.

 

[STOMP]

Is that why Joel, Jokic and Gobert haven’t sniffed a title and they are the best centers in the NBA? Jokic is a two time, back to back, MVP and isn’t even near a title. Many people think Joel should’ve won some MVPs as well.

The Warriors have dominated the past decade primarily because have multiple HoF talents plus a great supporting cast filled with team players. It's not Joel or Jokic's fault that their teammates aren't close to the supporting cast of the Warriors. The Bucks had a legit Big 3 and a nice supporting cast last year too. I know I'm probably pretty lonely on this, but MJ doesn't win all those titles without Scottie and some really nice pieces on the Bulls. Hakeem dominated the league for a decade but it wasn't until rookies Horry and Cassell showed up that there was a decent supporting cast around him... Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe weren't cutting it.

Stars win, but it's a team game

STOMP

 

[blazerfan11]

The Warriors have dominated the past decade primarily because have multiple HoF talents plus a great supporting cast filled with team players. It's not Joel or Jokic's fault that their teammates aren't close to the supporting cast of the Warriors. The Bucks had a legit Big 3 and a nice supporting cast last year too. I know I'm probably pretty lonely on this, but MJ doesn't win all those titles without Scottie and some really nice pieces on the Bulls. Hakeem dominated the league for a decade but it wasn't until rookies Horry and Cassell showed up that their was a decent supporting cast around him... Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe weren't cutting it.

Stars win, but it's a team game

STOMP

The 93-94 Bulls did win 55 games, 3rd most in the conference. Without Jordan. Take Embiid off of his team, where would they be?

 

[STOMP]

The 93-94 Bulls did win 55 games, 3rd most in the conference. Without Jordan. Take Embiid off of his team, where would they be?

Watching James Harden dribble & flop

STOMP

 

[Predator]

Name a team that doesn't have an elite big who would NOT want to have Jokic or Embiid on their team AND pay them.
Since I expect no takers ...

I agree with others that expecting a center, today, to lead a team in scoring is unlikely. Guards and wings. But having a center who is elite and does just that? Be happy that's what you've got. Punish teams inside and out, get to the line, put them in foul trouble ... a 6'10, 250 lb. Banchero could easily be called a 'modern day' center. And he's slotted for Top 4.

At 7 (assuming Portland uses it), is there is a BIG worth that pick? BPA and tiers. If it's in conjunction with trades, do the Blazers come out better for the pick and trade?
I don't have Duren as my top pick at 7. He's not higher than 3rd or 4th out of about 6. He is the ONLY center (with the 3 forwards being forwards at the top of the draft) who I see in the top 10. Maybe the whole lottery. Conversely, there isn't an average size PG or SG (outside of Ivey or maybe Sharpe) that I'd want there, either.

But I will say this: If Portland picks Duren (either trading down to 9 or staying at 7), then I'm hoping they see him as THAT guy who will make a trade (or sign and trade) of Nurkic happen for a forward. [Looking at you, Toronto.][3-teamer with Phoenix, etc.]

Obviously.

But that is… once again… not the heart of the matter.

Ask a team (with or without) an elite big if they’d rather have an elite 2 way wing.

OR more importantly, ask a team if they were starting from scratch who they would want.

An elite two way wing or an elite center?

Don’t even have to give them a choice of “this player or that player” just which one they’d rather have in a nameless/faceless scenario getting started from scratch.

I would guess a vast majority would prefer an elite 2 way wing.

 

[Predator]

The Warriors have dominated the past decade primarily because have multiple HoF talents plus a great supporting cast filled with team players. It's not Joel or Jokic's fault that their teammates aren't close to the supporting cast of the Warriors. The Bucks had a legit Big 3 and a nice supporting cast last year too. I know I'm probably pretty lonely on this, but MJ doesn't win all those titles without Scottie and some really nice pieces on the Bulls. Hakeem dominated the league for a decade but it wasn't until rookies Horry and Cassell showed up that their was a decent supporting cast around him... Vernon Maxwell and Otis Thorpe weren't cutting it.

Stars win, but it's a team game

STOMP

You’re referring to the NBA when it was a much, much different game. Look at the pace of play and average score. Using examples from 40 years ago mean nothing now.

Additionally, since the Warriors have won, these teams have won … and they have a common thread … and it’s not an elite center:

Toronto Raptors.
Milwaukee Bucks.
Los Angeles Lakers.

You could even throw in the LeBron / Kyrie Cavs for good measure.

It will be nearly a decade since an “elite” center (if that’s what you classify Duncan as… has won a championship. While multiple elite wings have won one since then.

 

[Predator]

Tell me, who is the elite wing player that the trailblazers can draft in the 2022 draft?

I don’t know but the first step of acquiring an elite wing is drafting wing players, not centers.

Many people didn’t think Kawhi or Giannis were elite wings until they blossomed into them.

 

[Predator]

Then give me an explanation why the Golden State Warriors used a number 2 pick to draft a Center. That is a much better franchise currently than the Portland trailblazers.

Because they already have elite players at multiple positions and can focus on drafting best talent available. And remember they also decided they needed an elite wing defender and went and got Wiggins because they knew it was a need. There’s actually an article about it right now on ESPN.

Additionally, player acquisition is much easier for Golden State than it is for Portland.

On top of that, Wiseman isn’t a plodding traditional center. He was seen as a modern day center similar to that of someone like Jaren Jackson or Evan Mobley.

 

[STOMP]

You’re referring to the NBA when it was a much, much different game. Look at the pace of play and average score. Using examples from 40 years ago mean nothing now.

Additionally, since the Warriors have won, these teams have won … and they have a common thread … and it’s not an elite center:

Toronto Raptors.
Milwaukee Bucks.
Los Angeles Lakers.

You could even throw in the LeBron / Kyrie Cavs for good measure.

It will be nearly a decade since an “elite” center (if that’s what you classify Duncan as… has won a championship. While multiple elite wings have won one since then.

Again, there aren't elite many elite centers these days and the few that are around have crappy teammates. You are not convincing me that if Shaq, Hakeem or Robinson were in their primes today and surrounded by decent teammates they wouldn't be contending. Yes the 3 has changed things, but so has the dearth of big man talent. If 6'8 230 lb Kevon Looney had to check Shaq, the Warriors would be making some roster moves.

STOMP

 

[blazerfan11]

Because they already have elite players at multiple positions and can focus on drafting best talent available. And remember they also decided they needed an elite wing defender and went and got Wiggins because they knew it was a need. There’s actually an article about it right now on ESPN.

Additionally, player acquisition is much easier for Golden State than it is for Portland.

On top of that, Wiseman isn’t a plodding traditional center. He was seen as a modern day center similar to that of someone like Jaren Jackson or Evan Mobley.

Do you see Jalen Duren as "plodding?

 

[STOMP]

Because they already have elite players at multiple positions and can focus on drafting best talent available. And remember they also decided they needed an elite wing defender and went and got Wiggins because they knew it was a need. There’s actually an article about it right now on ESPN.

Additionally, player acquisition is much easier for Golden State than it is for Portland.

Ask any Wolves fan, Wiggins wasn't thought of as an elite defender or anything close to that when he was traded for by the W's, nor was there anything easy about acquiring him. When they moved MeAngelo for him I had back and forths with several posters here who called him a lethargic sieve on D. Russell was acquired by sign and trading KD. From the outset he didn't fit their style of play at all as he's totally ball dominant iso type. Getting him was a huge gamble that they could move his massive contract down the line for a piece that fit better. Being well over the cap, they had no ability to sign FAs outside of MLEs so they took this uncharted circuitous route. They got Wiggins to buy in and dedicate himself to that end of the floor. That they got the Wolves #1 that turned into Jonathan Kuminga is looking like one of the biggest trade swindles in recent history.

STOMP

 

[MickZagger]

7 foot centers these days are growing up shooting 3’s instead of working on their footwork.

Shooting the long ball is all the rage these days with kids. Even the ones that should be dominating down low.

 

[blazerfan11]

You’re referring to the NBA when it was a much, much different game. Look at the pace of play and average score. Using examples from 40 years ago mean nothing now.

Additionally, since the Warriors have won, these teams have won … and they have a common thread … and it’s not an elite center:

Toronto Raptors.
Milwaukee Bucks.
Los Angeles Lakers.

You could even throw in the LeBron / Kyrie Cavs for good measure.

It will be nearly a decade since an “elite” center (if that’s what you classify Duncan as… has won a championship. While multiple elite wings have won one since then.

I think you're confusing what you believe with what NBA teams are actually doing.

Obviously.

But that is… once again… not the heart of the matter.

Ask a team (with or without) an elite big if they’d rather have an elite 2 way wing.

OR more importantly, ask a team if they were starting from scratch who they would want.

An elite two way wing or an elite center?

Don’t even have to give them a choice of “this player or that player” just which one they’d rather have in a nameless/faceless scenario getting started from scratch.

I would guess a vast majority would prefer an elite 2 way wing.

Obviously.

But that is… once again… not the heart of the matter.

Ask a team (with or without) an elite big if they’d rather have an elite 2 way wing.

OR more importantly, ask a team if they were starting from scratch who they would want.

An elite two way wing or an elite center?

Don’t even have to give them a choice of “this player or that player” just which one they’d rather have in a nameless/faceless scenario getting started from scratch.

I would guess a vast majority would prefer an elite 2 way wing.

If you are talking a generic hypothetical player, I bet they'd take the bigger player every time if their skills are equal overall. This year's top picks will all be around 6'10" or taller. Next year's #1 pick will be 7'2".