And we wondered why KP was canned

[PapaG]

Why do I have to explain how any hierarchy uses delegation of duties. The owner pays the GM to negotiate contracts. The owner peruses results, but must trust his top people unless he wants to fire them and do their jobs. Allen made a cursory review but ultimately went with the advice offered him.

Everyone involved in any decision gets a portion of the responsibility, but only certain people will get fired over it. You can blame the owner for what the GM did, but the owner isn't the guy who gets fired.

Who do I blame for Miller/Allen rushing to re-sign Roy when there were still 3 months left to renegotiate the (alleged) botched Pritchard negoations. Then, Aldridge gets signed for $65 million later that summer. Was that Pritchard's fault too?

I'm so confused...

 

[andalusian]

Why do I have to explain how any hierarchy uses delegation of duties. The owner pays the GM to negotiate contracts. The owner peruses results, but must trust his top people unless he wants to fire them and do their jobs. Allen made a cursory review but ultimately went with the advice offered him.

If this is a fact, it's on PA - the buck stops at Paul Allen, if he intends to run his businesses as an absentee owner - he deserves anything that comes his way.

Everyone involved in any decision gets a portion of the responsibility, but only certain people will get fired over it. You can blame the owner for what the GM did, but the owner isn't the guy who gets fired.

Well, duh. At the end of the day, given the time-line and the fact that there was tons of time to stretch the Roy extension - and the claim that KP was removed from the negotiations - it seems that KP was fired because of something else. Allen and his cronies had the time and authority to sign or not sign Roy. They did. I do not think there is any reason to believe that this was the reason KP was fired. These facts just do not seem to jive with it.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Wait a second. Are nik and jlprk saying that Larry Miller didn't have time to rework an extension? Roy signed on August 6th, 2009, after negotiations started on July 1st, at the very earliest. The team had until midnight on 10/31/09 to extend Roy, which was almost 3 more months to fix the mess that KP supposedly made on all his own.

I find it impossible to believe that the team was put in such a bad position that they signed Roy within a week or so of Pritchard being pulled off of the talks. They had almost 3 full months to still negotiate from the time Roy actually signed his contract! If it was that bad, Pritchard should have been fired immediately, instead of given another year to make mistakes.

This just shows how inept ownership here is, doesn't it?

Ownership may in fact be inept ... that's something I'm willing to entertain, but the fact remains that KP basically put the franchise in an untennable position by publicly backing Roy with his comments about "deserving" the max. At that point Allen and Miller were basically backed in to a corner with the prosepect of potentially alienating ticket holders and jeopardizing whatever good will had been accumulated since the 06' draft or they could bite the bullet and offer him what KP had conceded.

It's sort of like going to a car dealership with the mindset of playing hardball with the car salesman only to have your wife (or husband?) go bananas over a car and tell the dealer that they have to have the car no matter what and that it's "perfect." At that point you either walk out of the dealership (offer no extension) or you pay full price, because you're negotiating position has been blown up.

 

[PapaG]

PapaG, RoyToy....

Yea you guys are right, it's nonsense everything I'm saying! I'm sure Roy just all the sudden realized ouch my knees hurt today more than usual!! HAHAHAHA

What I'm argueing is to the extent he knew he was limited before signing his contract! Judging by the fact he's iced every day and needs three games off for one game on, I'd say he knew he had a slightly bigger problem than he let on.

You can't say different!! He's not playing because of those knees right now and when he's on the court he's slower than joel with no lift, I don't think that happened overnight nor does anyone who's covered this story....

SO why is it such a stretch to think he wanted to get PAID before the extent of this injury came out?

Had Roy gone into the tank last year, you may have a point.

Had Larry Miller not admitted they knew about the knees, you may have a point.

Since neither happened, you have no point. It's ... nonsense. That's the best word I can come up with for your opinion.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

No SENSE???? He's paid, has an ironclad contract, and will never have to worry about money again! That's a pretty big reason to lesson your symptoms wouldn't ya say? I'm not saying the team didn't know about his knees I'm saying that didn't know how bad...... Judging by how quickly he's deteriorated I think he knew... sorry if you don't agree.. the proof is in his play or lack there of it!

 

[PapaG]

Ownership may in fact be inept ... that's something I'm willing to entertain, but the fact remains that KP basically put the franchise in an untennable position by publicly backing Roy with his comments about "deserving" the max. At that point Allen and Miller were basically backed in to a corner with the prosepect of potentially alienating ticket holders and jeopardizing whatever good will had been accumulated since the 06' draft or they could bite the bullet and offer him what KP had conceded.

Then you fire him at that point, tell Roy's people you're starting from scratch, and get on with it. Since that didn't happen, and since the supposedly incompetent KP was allowed another year to botch things up even more, I have to assume that Allen was fine with the extension.

If he wasn't, and if he signed Roy because of his incompetent GM, yet he let the incompetent GM still have a job ... well ... who is really the most incompetent person in that situation?

 

[PapaG]

No SENSE???? He's paid, has an ironclad contract, and will never have to worry about money again! That's a pretty big reason to lesson your symptoms wouldn't ya say? I'm not saying the team didn't know about his knees I'm saying that didn't know how bad...... Judging by how quickly he's deteriorated I think he knew... sorry if you don't agree.. the proof is in his play or lack there of it!

Well, going from All-NBA and All-Star player to average starter in roughly 20 games would suggest a rapid deterioration, perhaps fostered by his knee injury/surgery last spring, than it would Roy tanking, wouldn't it?

 

[Nikolokolus]

I don't really care who is "most" incompetent (the whole group is looking pretty equal). I'm just kind of tired of seeing KP being given a pass by people who gloss over his mistakes and continue to sing his praises. And if it was me I would have fired him on the spot, but alas I'm not the one calling the shots.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

No the team most certainly did not know the extent to how bad his knees were, if they did they hid if from the fans, cause all summer and early fall it was how great shape Roy was in, and how ready to go he was for the season. Not once did ya hear grave concern about BROYs knees. NOT ONCE till the season tickets were purchased and butts were in seats. That is a fact!

 

[RR7]

season tickets are renewed in march, so the summer has nothing to do with it. And now you shift from roy to the team knowing and duping fans? ok.

 

[PapaG]

I don't really care who is "most" incompetent (the whole group is looking pretty equal). I'm just kind of tired of seeing KP being given a pass by people who gloss over his mistakes and continue to sing his praises. And if it was me I would have fired him on the spot, but alas I'm not the one calling the shots.

Honestly, who is doing that? I think the "KP is the worst thing to hit the Blazers and ruined the team" side is the one overreacting and not being fair.

 

[jlprk]

Re: This new debating point that the contract was signed 3 months before the league deadline...Before Papa even invented this point, my long post had answered it. To repeat: Pritchard had already destroyed any framework of possible negotiating positions. It's a psychological game of coddling the player you want, but not too much, and he had already promised Roy the maximum. Had Miller, Allen, or the Vulcans reversed this position, Roy would have been very angry, and would have walked. Pritchard had raised his expectations sky high. He knew he could get almost as much from any other team.

Some posters in this thread say that with 3 months left, Pritchard's superiors should have reversed course and renegotiated. But Roy wouldn't have renegotiated. He would have thought, rightfully, that some GMs would think like Pritchard and pay him big bucks. This was obvious to team management, and it's obvious to me. They were stuck. Then to ensure that Pritchard would win, he went to the media to raise fan ire against what his superiors wanted. He Pritchslapped his boss.

 

[RoyToy]

Sadly Roy walking would have been a good thing at this point. That's not exactly helping your case.

If the team knew his knees were that bad they shouldn't have signed it, plain and simple. It's inexcusable no matter who you want to place the blame on. If the alternative was letting him walk(the suns just did this with Amare) then so be it. Sometimes you have to make a stand and not fold like a wet paper bag like the Blazers did. What makes it worse is they were right, yet they still folded. That worries me.

 

[andalusian]

Re: This new debating point that the contract was signed 3 months before the league deadline...Before Papa even invented this point, my long post had answered it. To repeat: Pritchard had already destroyed any framework of possible negotiating positions. It's a psychological game of coddling the player you want, but not too much, and he had already promised Roy the maximum. Had Miller, Allen, or the Vulcans reversed this position, Roy would have been very angry, and would have walked. Pritchard had raised his expectations sky high. He knew he could get almost as much from any other team.

Roy could not have walked. He was would have been an RFA - and the Blazers would have had at least a year to trade him while his value was sky high.

The reality is that Pritchard was removed from the negotiations and they gave Roy everything he asked for after. Logically, this points to KP being the one that held out for a better deal and the Vulcan's caving in.

Some posters in this thread say that with 3 months left, Pritchard's superiors should have reversed course and renegotiated. But Roy wouldn't have renegotiated. He would have thought, rightfully, that some GMs would think like Pritchard and pay him big bucks. This was obvious to team management, and it's obvious to me. They were stuck. Then to ensure that Pritchard would win, he went to the media to raise fan ire against what his superiors wanted. He Pritchslapped his boss.

I do not see it that way. KP went to the media and told them Roy deserved the max but there were issues that had to be addressed. The issue was clearly his knees, and giving Roy the Max with a team option is still the max. KP wanted not to alienate Roy while still working on the details to give the organization some leverage. It seems that the Vulcans could not wait - and in their rush to get it done - screwed themselves more.

 

[RoyToy]

Roy could not have walked. He was would have been an RFA - and the Blazers would have had at least a year to trade him while his value was sky high.

The reality is that Pritchard was removed from the negotiations and they gave Roy everything he asked for after. Logically, this points to KP being the one that held out for a better deal and the Vulcan's caving in.



I do not see it that way. KP went to the media and told them Roy deserved the max but there were issues that had to be addressed. The issue was clearly his knees, and giving Roy the Max with a team option is still the max. KP wanted not to alienate Roy while still working on the details to give the organization some leverage. It seems that the Vulcans could not wait - and in their rush to get it done - screwed themselves more.

Good point on RFA and good take overall. Repped.

 

[PapaG]

Re: This new debating point that the contract was signed 3 months before the league deadline...Before Papa even invented this point, my long post had answered it. To repeat: Pritchard had already destroyed any framework of possible negotiating positions. It's a psychological game of coddling the player you want, but not too much, and he had already promised Roy the maximum. Had Miller, Allen, or the Vulcans reversed this position, Roy would have been very angry, and would have walked. Pritchard had raised his expectations sky high. He knew he could get almost as much from any other team.

Some posters in this thread say that with 3 months left, Pritchard's superiors should have reversed course and renegotiated. But Roy wouldn't have renegotiated. He would have thought, rightfully, that some GMs would think like Pritchard and pay him big bucks. This was obvious to team management, and it's obvious to me. They were stuck. Then to ensure that Pritchard would win, he went to the media to raise fan ire against what his superiors wanted. He Pritchslapped his boss.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that Pritchard should have been fired, and you start over? Also, it isn't exactly a shock that a 2nd team All-NBA player in his 3rd year would think he is worth a max contract. Or did this thought only occur to Roy when Pritchard waxed poetic about it in the media?

Hell, since Miller knew about Roy's knees and admitted it, the best thing they could have done is not sign Roy to an extension and let him play out last year and then offer him a QO (or don't). Instead, it seems as if they threw their hands up ("well, KP sure messed this up for us! No choice now but to sign Brandon, bone-on-bone and all."), sighed, and caved in to Roy, at least if I'm to believe your amusingly interesting theory. If your GM forces you into such a bad decision, and if he hamstrung his owner, then keeping Pritchard would seem to be an egregious mistake.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

RR7- Roy can barely walk right now and every announcer around the league has said it too.... "he's not the same player" you're telling me over the summer you heard there was a chance that Roy could be traded or a permanent bench player by Xmas because of knee concerns? NEVER HAPPENED!! People something is a miss here! You don't fall apart that fast in both knees unless they were way more banged up than you let on. I've said this before, the organization and BRoy both are to blame here. Both marketed a product that doesn't exist three months later.

 

[RoyToy]

The RFA point being brought up now is a pretty big deal imo. The team certainly could have let Roy play the year out like they did with Oden this year. Too bad they caved under pressure.

 

[PapaG]

RR7- Roy can barely walk right now and every announcer around the league has said it too.... "he's not the same player" you're telling me over the summer you heard there was a chance that Roy could be traded or a permanent bench player by Xmas because of knee concerns? NEVER HAPPENED!! People something is a miss here! You don't fall apart that fast in both knees unless they were way more banged up than you let on. I've said this before, the organization and BRoy both are to blame here. Both marketed a product that doesn't exist three months later.

I don't feel like playing checkers anymore.

 

[andalusian]

RR7- Roy can barely walk right now and every announcer around the league has said it too.... "he's not the same player" you're telling me over the summer you heard there was a chance that Roy could be traded or a permanent bench player by Xmas because of knee concerns? NEVER HAPPENED!! People something is a miss here! You don't fall apart that fast in both knees unless they were way more banged up than you let on. I've said this before, the organization and BRoy both are to blame here. Both marketed a product that doesn't exist three months later.

Brandon Roy played at a very high level last year with the same bone-on-bone condition in his left leg. Clearly - they had concerns, but the fact is - they gave him the contract. The CBA contains provisions to protect a team if a player hides medical information from them. If Roy did that - the team would have found a way to wiggle out of it. The fact that you never hear about it tells you the organization knew exactly what happened to him - and they took the risk.

 

[jlprk]

If the team knew his knees were that bad they shouldn't have signed it, plain and simple. It's inexcusable no matter who you want to place the blame on. If the alternative was letting him walk(the suns just did this with Amare) then so be it. Sometimes you have to make a stand and not fold like a wet paper bag like the Blazers did. What makes it worse is they were right, yet they still folded. That worries me.

You mixed up Yardape and me. I didn't say that the team knew how bad his knees were. I'm saying that even with good knees, Pritchard's superiors felt he wasn't worth the maximum. But they were boxed in by Pritchard's actions and couldn't reverse course, despite 3 months left. 1) Roy was milking public opinion (many posters on many boards were demanding that he and Aldridge be immediately signed to the max). 2) Normally, if you don't get a deal done by the first week of the season, you wait till the next summer. This October deadline isn't the real one practiced. Players often refuse to deal with financial negotiations once they need to concentrate on playing. 3) Roy's public whining was making it obvious that a long delay would affect his morale and quality of play for the season. For example, Aldridge now says that he played like crap in the early months last season, even after his contract was signed. These guys are big babies and must be coddled. They've never had real jobs.

 

[PapaG]

You mixed up Yardape and me. I didn't say that the team knew how bad his knees were. I'm saying that even with good knees, Pritchard's superiors felt he wasn't worth the maximum. But they were boxed in by Pritchard's actions and couldn't reverse course, despite 3 months left. 1) Roy was milking public opinion (many posters on many boards were demanding that he and Aldridge be immediately signed to the max). 2) Normally, if you don't get a deal done by the first week of the season, you wait till the next summer. This October deadline isn't the real one paracticed. Players often refuse to deal with financial negotiations once they need to concentrate on playing. 3) Roy's public whining was making it obvious that a long delay would affect his morale and quality of play for the season. Aldridge now says that he played like crap in the early months last season, even after his contract was signed. These guys are big babies and must be coddled. They've never had real jobs.

Realizing that we're dealing 100% in opinion right now, I'd still like to know why Pritchard wasn't fired after botching the Roy extension.

Also, LaMarcus Aldridge signed his contract extension on 10/22/09, just 9 days before the October date that you claim no one actually uses. So, that gives the Blazers 2.5 more months to work on Roy's deal, since they proved to go out to 10/22.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Is PapaG and "Gramps" (who does the Prediction thread) one in the same?

Didn't think so but now I'm confused. Can anyone clear this up for me? Thanks (no offense Gramps!)

 

[jlprk]

Ha ha!! You think you might have offended Gramps by confusing him with PapaG. No, they're not the same. Their personalities come across in writing as very different.

Roy signed on August 6th, 2009, after negotiations started on July 1st, at the very earliest. The team had until midnight on 10/31/09 to extend Roy, which was almost 3 more months to fix the mess that KP supposedly made on all his own.

LaMarcus Aldridge signed his contract extension on 10/22/09, just 9 days before the October date that you claim no one actually uses.

I would guess that they accelerated the Roy contract negotiation to provide time to negotiate with Aldridge. Pritchard did his giveaway, management felt burned, and slowed the Aldridge negotiation even further, so it ended Oct. 22. I remember that everyone expected Aldridge to get the max and they cut it down somewhat. So delay paid off. But the bad side of the late date is that Aldridge said (I think on Picture Day, before practices began) that in last year's early season he was unmotivated because he was mad his contract hadn't been finalized. He said his rebellion continued even for a long time after the signing.

Signing stars before the season starts, or they'll play badly, is one of the 3 reasons I gave for management not reversing Pritchard's course by starting over, as some in this thread criticize management for.

In summary, I earlier said that 1 of my 3 reasons for management not restarting the Roy negotiations was that signing a contract after the season starts can make a player play badly, you answered, here's an example of an Oct. 22 signing, and I have now answered, yes, that proves my point about player morale. And a 2nd reason for the late date was that this was the 2nd giant contract of the summer, plus they slowed it down because they felt burned by hurrying on the Roy contract.

This post needs a rewrite, but to hell with it, Papa will be able to figure it out.