Arizona: U.S. Congresswomen, 12 others shot, at least 4 dead

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The thing is most of the tea party "rhetoric" is coming from the left. Tea Baggers and what not. About how they are a bunch of stupid hicks. The left loves to look their nose down upon anyone that is against their ideology. And whenever they get the chance they will pass blame to those, even if its unrelated. Not saying the right does it, but IMO, the left is more cynical in general. Many (at least online on these boards and others) will cheer when a republican leader dies, stating they deserved it.

 

[crandc]

Its pretty clear that the culture of hate is coming from the left. They are super quick to label, make fun of and mock the tea party and pass blame off rather quickly.

I'm sorry, can you quote me where "the left" said that if Democrats don't get elected they will try "second amendment remedies"? Or where "the left" asked supporters to openly carry firearms to a rally in support of health care reform? Or where a candidate of "the left" asked supporters to bring assault rifles to a campaign rally and fire them? Or where "the left" referred to a change in the tax code as "the same as Hitler's invasion of Poland"? Or where "the left" said a president telling schoolchildren to study hard and set goals was "just like Hitler"? Or where "the left" put out "hunting licenses" with a Republican president's name and picture? Or where a liberal congresswoman, like Nancy Pelosi, said she wanted her supporters "armed and dangerous"? Or where a liberal African-American Congressman wanted to hire as chief of staff a radio talk show host who called for armed insurrection? Surely someone as brilliant at copying and pasting as you are can provide these examples.

I did hear some people talk about wanting Bush to be tried in a court of law. You know, a legal solution. I did not hear Keith Olbermann or Markos Moulitsas talk about killing him.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

link to those? lets see the context.

 

[bluefrog]

I'm sorry, can you quote me where "the left" said that if Democrats don't get elected they will try "second amendment remedies"? Or where "the left" asked supporters to openly carry firearms to a rally in support of health care reform? Or where a candidate of "the left" asked supporters to bring assault rifles to a campaign rally and fire them? Or where "the left" referred to a change in the tax code as "the same as Hitler's invasion of Poland"? Or where "the left" said a president telling schoolchildren to study hard and set goals was "just like Hitler"? Or where "the left" put out "hunting licenses" with a Republican president's name and picture? Or where a liberal congresswoman, like Nancy Pelosi, said she wanted her supporters "armed and dangerous"? Or where a liberal African-American Congressman wanted to hire as chief of staff a radio talk show host who called for armed insurrection? Surely someone as brilliant at copying and pasting as you are can provide these examples.

I did hear some people talk about wanting Bush to be tried in a court of law. You know, a legal solution. I did not hear Keith Olbermann or Markos Moulitsas talk about killing him.

Silly Crandc, don't try to bring "facts" into this. It's obvious that this "left-wing pothead" would go out and shoot a liberal judge and a liberal Congresswoman. It's what left-wing liberal people do. It just makes sense.

Seriously though, this isn't helping ratchet down the rhetoric

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs...i-d-pa-fla-gov-rick-scott-they-ought-put-him-
http://thetimes-tribune.com/opinion...-nuts-bolts-from-blue-1.1052739#axzz1A4hLabIP

Guess no one wants to defend "billionaires or millionaires" nowadays.

This week Mr. Kanjorski told The Times-Tribune editorial board about how large companies don't want the government changing the way it does business because they make big money off the government, and about how he's getting closer to supporting a single-payer health care system "because the health insurance industry is about as corrupt as you can ask for as an industry."

"They're blood suckers," he said.

This was followed by a reference to Rick Scott, the Republican candidate for Florida governor, who was ousted in 1997 as head of the giant health care company Columbia/HCA, amid the nation's largest Medicare and Medicaid fraud scandal. The company paid $1.7 billion in fines and civil settlements.

"That Scott down there that's running for governor of Florida," Mr. Kanjorski said. "Instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him. He stole billions of dollars from the United States government and he's running for governor of Florida. He's a millionaire and a billionaire. He's no hero. He's a damn crook. It's just we don't prosecute big crooks."


Read more: http://thetimes-tribune.com/opinion...-nuts-bolts-from-blue-1.1052739#ixzz1AljBKsxR

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/06/14/obama-if-they-bring-a-knife-to-the-fight-we-bring-a-gun/

Mobster wisdom tells us never to bring a knife to a gun fight. But what does political wisdom say about bringing a gun to a knife fight?

That’s exactly what Barack Obama said he would do to counter Republican attacks “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

...and here we go with the Fairness Doctorine.

http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2011/jan/10/clyburn-words-can-be-danger/

U.S. Rep. Jim Clyburn, the third-ranking Democrat in Congress, said Sunday the deadly shooting in Arizona should get the country thinking about what's acceptable to say publicly and when people should keep their mouths shut.

Clyburn said he thinks vitriol in public discourse led to a 22-year-old suspect opening fire Saturday at an event Democratic U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords held for her constituents in Tucson, Ariz. Six people were killed and 14 others were injured, including Giffords.
The shooting is cause for the country to rethink parameters on free speech, Clyburn said from his office, just blocks from the South Carolina Statehouse. He wants standards put in place to guarantee balanced media coverage with a reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, in addition to calling on elected officials and media pundits to use 'better judgment.'

 

[Denny Crane]

While the left wing talking heads are obsessed with trying to pin this on republicans, Obama's actually handled himself with class.

 

[bluefrog]

http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/01...d-over-culture-of-violence-they-have-wrought/

Consider that, in the wake of the shooting, the feds arrested someone threatening Sen. Michael Bennet, Rep. Danny Davis received an email over the weekend saying he was next, and a leader of the Minutemen responded to the Tucson shooting by writing “Too bad Traitor Raul Grijalva wasn’t with her! He won’t be missed!” All three of these politicians are Democrats.

Why aren't all those hate-loving violent "left-wing potheads" going after the Republicans?

When Clarence Dupnik gained national attention by spotlighting the role of violent rhetoric (“We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry”… “pretty soon we’re not going to be able to find reasonable, decent people willing to subject themselves to serve in public office”), he didn’t actually mention any political party or movement in his statement. The fact that conservatives moved swiftly to marginalize and demonize him and his words, that was a tell.

Me thinks the right doth protest too much

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Please. It was very easy to see who he was talking about.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Also, I have to chuckle a little bit when I compare the reaction from the talking heads in regards to this shooting vs. the Fort Hood massacre. With the former, regardless of the evidence that this kid was described as a "left-wing pothead", they're racing to assign blame to a Sarah Palin graphic. With the latter, when the shooter kept yelling "Allahu Akbar", we were told to withhold judgment and not jump to conclusions.

Hilarious.

Sarah Palin isn't a religion (yet).

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Let's see what John Stewart has to say

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction[/video]

 

[Denny Crane]

Let's see what John Stewart has to say

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction[/video]

We need Bozo's opinion, too. Why settle for one clown?

 

[Ed O]

Let's see what John Stewart has to say

[video]http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-january-10-2011/arizona-shootings-reaction[/video]

Let's not.

Ed O.

 

[MARIS61]

Here's a thought...you're both right.

The gun rhetoric is a bit much. The gun rhetoric didn't cause this incident.

Doesn't mean it shouldn't change.

Here's a thought...gun control laws!

We also have many laws against murder. Should we enact additionally redundant murder statutes?

271 Federal gun laws on the books, with over 22,000 state and local gun laws. Thousands more gun laws than the rest of the entire world combined.
Nearly all are in direct conflict with the 2nd Amendment, and are designed with the intent to disarm the populace. And they have succeeded in disarming much of the populace. Unfortunately they disarmed that neighbor of yours, the only guy who would have come runnin g to help you during that home invasion you just died in. Of course, they couldn't disarm the criminals who invaded your home because THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR SILLY LAWS.

Switzerland has one basic gun law, designed to ensure a thoroughly armed populace. All males are given assault rifles and required to keep them handy. Additional guns are available to all citizens from the military. People carry them everywhere like Portlanders carry umbrellas.

Guess who has avoided both world wars and has been considered indefeatable for the last thousand years? Guess who has no gun violence problem? Guess who will still be a free and sovereign homeland long after the denuded US is overthrown by their own military?

Target shooting is Switzerland's National Sport, and shooting ranges are the most common recreational outlet. More popular than golf courses are here. It's a family sport and much as it used to in America up before the 70's, it solidifies both generational and community ties.

http://www.theblessingsofliberty.com/articles/article11.html

But there have been no school massacres in Switzerland, where guns and kids mix freely. At shooting matches, bicycles aplenty are parked outside. Inside the firing shelter, the competitors pay 12-year-olds tips to keep score. The 16-year-olds shoot rifles with men and women of all ages. In fact, the tourist brochure, "Zurich News" recommends September's Knabenschiessen (boy's shooting contest) as a must-see: "The oldest Zurich tradition consists of a shooting contest at the Albisguetli (range) for 12 to 16 year-old boys and girls and a colorful three-day fun-fair." The event has been held since 1657, and attracts thousands of teenage participants and spectators.

While many shoot for sport, all males aged 20 to 42 are required by militia system regulation to keep rifles and/or pistols at home. In addition, gun shops abound. Yet firearms are rarely used in crime.

Homicide is tied to a willingness to resort to violence, not the mere presence of guns. The prevalence of firearms in the home and the participation of youth in shooting matches bind youth to adults and discourages a generation gap.

By contrast, homicide rates are highest in the underdeveloped countries, many of which ban private firearm possession. In some, private murder does not compare to the genocidal murder committed by governments against their unarmed subjects.

In America, firearms take on a sinister reputation from the nightly news and violent movies. But in Switzerland, firearms symbolize a wholesome, community activity. The typical weekend shooting festival brings out the entire family. Beside the range is a huge tent where scores or hundreds of people are eating, drinking, and socializing. With cantonal and rifle club banners fluttering in the wind, the melody of rifle fire blends with Alpine music and cow bells.

Since its founding in 1291, Switzerland has depended on an armed populace for its defense. William Tell used a crossbow not only to shoot the apple from his son's head, but also to kill the tyrant Gessler. For centuries, the cantonal republic defeated the powerful armies of the European monarchs. Machiavelli wrote in 1532: "The Swiss are well armed and enjoy great freedom."

This coincidence has not escaped the notice of those who oppose liberty.

Monarchist philosopher Jean Bodin, writing in 1606, denounced free speech and arms possession by commoners. Subjects must be disarmed to prevent democratic sedition, he said. The Swiss proved, Bodin wrongly averred, that arms bearing was "the cause of an infinite number of murders."

The Swiss militia model, however, preserved democracy and held Europe's despots at bay. In fact, it inspired the rebellious American colonists.

John Adams praised the democratic Swiss Cantons, where every man was entitled to vote on laws and to bear arms. Patrick Henry, another American Founding Father, lauded the Swiss for maintaining their independence without "a mighty and splendid President" or a standing army.

The Swiss influence is clear in the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which provides: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Today, it has become fashionable to hate this orphan of the Bill of Rights.

However, a quick glance at history shows that tyrannical governments kill far more than do private criminals. But first, governments must disarm their victims. In 1933, the

Nazis seized power via massive search-and-seizure operations for firearms against "Communists," i.e., all political opponents. In 1938, during the Night of the Broken Glass, they disarmed the Jews. When the Nazis occupied Europe in 1939-41, they proclaimed the death penalty for any person who failed to surrender all firearms within 24 hours.

There may be various reasons why the Nazis did not invade Switzerland, but one of those reasons is that every Swiss man had a rifle at home.

For this we have no better record than the Nazi invasion plans, which stated that, because of the Swiss shooting skills, Switzerland would be difficult to conquer and pacify.

European countries occupied by the Nazis had strict gun controls before the war, and the registration lists facilitated confiscation of firearms and the execution of their owners.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

We need Bozo's opinion, too. Why settle for one clown?

Let's not.

Ed O.

Did either of you watch it?

 

[MARIS61]

Those guys are too scared but I watched it.

He's usually much funnier.

 

[Denny Crane]

Did either of you watch it?

I watched it, but you have to admit he's a clown or he wouldn't be on Comedy Central.

 

[bluefrog]

I watched it, but you have to admit he's a clown or he wouldn't be on Comedy Central.

Glenn Beck is a clown and he's on Fox News so it can happen the other way.

Interesting how Jon Stewarts message was dismissed by you and Ed O. Very interesting...

 

[mook]

It'd be nice if, like Jon Stewart said, crazy political rhetoric on both sides could be dialed down enough that we could tell the difference between the rants of a psychotic and the rants of a pundit or politician.

Language matters when a rap singer calls people hos and n*****s. Language matters when you show Pulp Fiction to 6 year olds. Language matters when Obama's ex-pastor goes on his crazy rants. Language matters when you call somebody "teabagger." At least that's what I keep hearing from Republicans time after time.

So why is it language doesn't matter when political leaders say lies that push mentally unstable people further toward the brink?

As our politics pushes more toward the extreme, maybe the natural counterbalance to that is the blowback that happens after events like this. I haven't seen a shred of proof that Sarah Palin or Glen Beck said anything to specifically incite this insane person. They may have absolutely nothing to do with it.

But they play with incendiary, reckless language all the time. The backlash they are seeing is the price they pay for playing that game.

Just like I never really cared whether or not Bush instructed his staff to put up the "Mission Accomplished" banner. If you were watching his speeches since he took the national stage, he always used banners and signage in the background to reinforce his message. He trained America to understand that whatever was behind him on a big sign was his point. It's a screwy argument to say, "Well, I didn't mean it THAT time. That was some soldier's idea."

If you consistently use a certain communication style to rile up your fans, you have to face the consequences when it inevitably backfires. Even if it backfires in a way that's unfair in that particular circumstance.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I watched it, but you have to admit he's a clown or he wouldn't be on Comedy Central.

He admits he's a clown. He admits that anyone who watches the Daily Show for their news is misguided. He admits they do fake news.

However, it's a new world. Every news channel is entertainment first, news second. I don't see why you would dismiss his opinion based on his network affiliation. You may not like it, but he is extremely influential. It's pretty clear you don't watch the show regularly. He does criticize all sides. He is the only person I know of that regularly calls for civil discourse in political arenas.

In case you're interested in seeing what a very influential person is talking about instead of writing him off as Bozo, go ahead and watch this in case you haven't

[video=youtube;6JzGOiBXeD4]

 

[PapaG]

And yet he has trouble with simple sentence structure, phrasing thoughts much like an assimilated asian poster I know from the ESPN board.

Not surprised that he is a graduate of Tea Party University (US Armed Forces).

This guy was rejected by the military. If MIXUM gets suspended for posting some supposedly insensitive remarks after Mo Lucas' death, should the author of this sort of vile vitriol, based on a falsehood, also get a timeout?

 

[PapaG]

Climate of violence?

June 14, 2008
Categories:Barack Obama.Obama brings a gun to a knife fight
The McCain campaign and RNC are pouncing on another line from the Obama pool report:

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”

McCain and the RNC took on the comment in terms that will be very familiar to people who followed Clinton campaign statements last year:

“Barack Obama’s call for ‘new politics’ is officially over. In just 24 hours, Barack Obama attacked one of America’s pioneering women CEOs, rejected a series of joint bipartisan town halls, and said that if there’s a political knife fight, he’d bring a gun," McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said, referring also to the Obama campaign's shot at Carly Fiorina's lavish pay package and role in layoffs at Hewlett-Packard.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/Obama_brings_a_gun_to_a_knife_fight.html

 

[PapaG]

So, since this story broke, we now know that those who knew that nutjob say was batshit crazy, that he was inspired by movies like Loose Change and Donnie Darko, that police had been to his residence before, and that one of his college professors had called 911 on him for rants he was giving in class last summer.

With this knowledge available in the media, the sheriff in charge of this county continues to blame talk radio for the crime, even as he admits that he has no proof of an actual link.

My question to the sheriff would be this: How could you not have any deputies assigned to an organized public event involving a sitting US Representative? That seems like a very basic practice in law enforment, doesn't it? I don't think I've ever been to any public event in Portland without a presence from either the police or sheriff's office. Hell, even the Ski Expo in north Portlan has police/deputies there every year.

This entire episode has so completely turned me off to the political "debate" in this country as I've ever been. Instead mourning the victims, this entire tragedy has been minimized to verbal potshots between the far left and the far right in order to assign blame. When the head of the actual investigation is the most vocal person partaking in this activity, it's hard to say that we aren't completely lost as a country.

 

[PapaG]

Re: U.S. Congresswomen Assassinated

Interesting? Not really, a terrible tragedy that was probably motivated by months of hate speech and downright bullshit rhetoric coming from right-wing radio and Fox News.

But let's not jump to conclusions...

 

[PapaG]

Thanks for the posts, Jayremmie. PapaG's side is having a very bad day.

I found it to be a bad day for everyone. Way to look at "sides", though.

He works and supports his family. As a stay at home dad, has your wife returned from her business trip?

I don't even know what this means. I don't travel for work as I used to do. Was this your attempt at an insult?

 

[huevonkiller]

So, since this story broke, we now know that those who knew that nutjob say was batshit crazy, that he was inspired by movies like Loose Change and Donnie Darko, that police had been to his residence before, and that one of his college professors had called 911 on him for rants he was giving in class last summer.

With this knowledge available in the media, the sheriff in charge of this county continues to blame talk radio for the crime, even as he admits that he has no proof of an actual link.

My question to the sheriff would be this: How could you not have any deputies assigned to an organized public event involving a sitting US Representative? That seems like a very basic practice in law enforment, doesn't it? I don't think I've ever been to any public event in Portland without a presence from either the police or sheriff's office. Hell, even the Ski Expo in north Portlan has police/deputies there every year.

This entire episode has so completely turned me off to the political "debate" in this country as I've ever been. Instead mourning the victims, this entire tragedy has been minimized to verbal potshots between the far left and the far right in order to assign blame. When the head of the actual investigation is the most vocal person partaking in this activity, it's hard to say that we aren't completely lost as a country.

Yes that was the first thing that upset me, the lack of security. Not even a couple of patrol vehicles standing close by?

I agree that is such a reckless and immature position to take, to randomly blame someone for a nut's actions. It just shows what credibility most people lack and diminishes their opinions in the future.

 

[Ed O]

He admits he's a clown. He admits that anyone who watches the Daily Show for their news is misguided. He admits they do fake news.

...

In case you're interested in seeing what a very influential person is talking about instead of writing him off as Bozo, go ahead and watch this in case you haven't ...

Is he a clown or not?

I think he is. I prefer my funny people to make me laugh in other ways, and I certainly don't give a shit about what a comedian thinks about this situation.

Ed O.

 

[bluefrog]

Dad pursued Ariz. massacre suspect before shooting

Mysterious black bag in hand, Jared Loughner ran into the desert, his angry father in futile pursuit of his truck.

Hours after Randy Loughner's confrontation with his 22-year-old son Saturday morning, six people were shot dead and more than a dozen others wounded — and Jared Loughner was in custody.

The sheriff's deputies who swarmed the Loughners' house removed what they describe as evidence Jared Loughner was targeting Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who doctors said Tuesday was breathing on her own for the first time after taking a bullet to the forehead. Among the handwritten notes was one with the words "Die, bitch," which authorities told The Associated Press they believe was a reference to Giffords.

 

[maxiep]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011106068.html