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andalusian said:
BTW, In fairness to Westbrook, a 0.133 career WS/48 is fantastic.
Click to expand...

AD .210
Arvydas Sabonis .200
Billups .176
Dame .174
Clyde .173
Brandon Roy .155
Aldridge .153
Terry Porter .150
Steve Smith .139
Buck Williams .136
Westbrook .131
Jerome Kersey .119


I'm not sure I'd call it fantastic, especially considering his low efficiency as a scorer and passer
 
wizenheimer said:
AD .210
Arvydas Sabonis .200
Billups .176
Dame .174
Clyde .173
Brandon Roy .155
Aldridge .153
Terry Porter .150
Steve Smith .139
Buck Williams .136
Westbrook .131
Jerome Kersey .119


I'm not sure I'd call it fantastic, especially considering his low efficiency as a scorer and passer
Click to expand...
For a guy that has been in the league for 17 years that's fantastic by general NBA standards. Remember that it includes super un-efficient years since about 2019 and the initial rookie / early years. It just shows you that for a little while there, he was really great. Never as great as the people he was compared to in this list, like Lebron, Magic and Jokic, but overall, fantastic.

Asking Google Gemini, "what is the average ws/48 score for all players in the nba" here is what we got:

There isn't a single, published "average WS/48 score for all players" because the stat is highly variable and not a typical aggregate measure. However, WS/48 represents a player's total Win Shares divided by 48 minutes (to standardize for per-minute production), with an average NBA player's score falling somewhere between 0.070 and 0.080. Elite players (who are significantly above average) might have a WS/48 in the range of 0.150 to 0.200 or higher, but most players will have a score below the league average.
Here's a breakdown of what different ranges mean:
  • 0.000 to 0.050: Represents below-average players.
  • 0.075: A typical average player.
  • 0.100 to 0.120: A very good player.
  • 0.150 to 0.200+: An elite player.

Now, for a long career WS/48 - 0.133 is fantastic. It is not the cream of the crop, generational kind of talent, but it is fantastic. I stand by that assessment.
 
andalusian said:
For a guy that has been in the league for 17 years that's fantastic by general NBA standards. Remember that it includes super un-efficient years since about 2019 and the initial rookie / early years. It just shows you that for a little while there, he was really great. Never as great as the people he was compared to in this list, like Lebron, Magic and Jokic, but overall, fantastic.

Asking Google Gemini, "what is the average ws/48 score for all players in the nba" here is what we got:

There isn't a single, published "average WS/48 score for all players" because the stat is highly variable and not a typical aggregate measure. However, WS/48 represents a player's total Win Shares divided by 48 minutes (to standardize for per-minute production), with an average NBA player's score falling somewhere between 0.070 and 0.080. Elite players (who are significantly above average) might have a WS/48 in the range of 0.150 to 0.200 or higher, but most players will have a score below the league average.
Here's a breakdown of what different ranges mean:
  • 0.000 to 0.050: Represents below-average players.
  • 0.075: A typical average player.
  • 0.100 to 0.120: A very good player.
  • 0.150 to 0.200+: An elite player.

Now, for a long career WS/48 - 0.133 is fantastic. It is not the cream of the crop, generational kind of talent, but it is fantastic. I stand by that assessment.
Click to expand...

most of those guys had long NBA careers so their lower impact years are in there
 
wizenheimer said:
most of those guys had long NBA careers so their lower impact years are in there
Click to expand...
What does a hand picked list of names have to do with the assessment that his career ws/48 is fantastic by general NBA standards?
 
wizenheimer said:
AD .210
Arvydas Sabonis .200
Billups .176
Dame .174
Clyde .173
Brandon Roy .155
Aldridge .153
Terry Porter .150
Steve Smith .139
Buck Williams .136
Westbrook .131
Jerome Kersey .119


I'm not sure I'd call it fantastic, especially considering his low efficiency as a scorer and passer
Click to expand...
Giving @THE HCP the credit he's due, I'd take pretty much everyone on that list over Westbrook... Heh heh
 
andalusian said:
What does a hand picked list of names have to do with the assessment that his career ws/48 is fantastic by general NBA standards?
Click to expand...

quite a bit actually. To start with, I think "fantastic" is pretty similar, in NBA terms, to elite

Aldridge, Terry Porter, Steve Smith, Buck Williams...4 Blazers who had higher winshares/48 than Westbrook

Westbrook ranks 214th on the career winshare/48 list:

5. Neil Johnston* .2413
10. Rudy Gobert .2192
13. Bob Pettit* .2128
21. Jimmy Butler .2062
27. Jarrett Allen .2000
30. Artis Gilmore* .1931
34. Dolph Schayes* .1922
35. Clint Capela .1920
36. Manu Ginóbili* .1902
38. Adrian Dantley* .1887
39. Sidney Moncrief* .1873
40. Karl-Anthony Towns .1859
41. Paul Arizin* .1833
43. Sam Jones* .1824
45. Dan Issel* .1813
46. Kevin McHale* .1802
47. Bailey Howell* .1799
50. Clyde Lovellette* .1777
51. Kevin Johnson .1777
54. Reggie Miller* .1758
56. Bobby Jones* .1755
57. Bob Lanier* .1751
59. Damian Lillard .1742
62. Jonas Valančiūnas .1724
Dwight Howard* .1724
64. Zelmo Beaty* .1715
65. Larry Nance .1713
67. DeAndre Jordan .1702
68. Cliff Hagan* .1700
70. Amar'e Stoudemire .1691
73. Chet Walker* .1685
75. Kevin Love .1656
76. Connie Hawkins* .1656
77. Don Nelson* .1651
80. Kyrie Irving .1625
82. Dwyane Wade* .1620
83. Marques Johnson .1616
85. Walt Bellamy* .1603
87. Bam Adebayo .1594
88. Joakim Noah .1593
89. Chris Bosh* .1593
90. Cedric Maxwell .1585
91. Mark Price .1582
92. Enes Freedom .1574
94. George Gervin* .1568
95. Al Horford .1567
96. Detlef Schrempf .1565
97. David Thompson* .1565
100. Willis Reed* .1558
101. Paul Westphal* .1551
102. Tyson Chandler .1550
105. Jeff Hornacek .1539
106. LaMarcus Aldridge .1532
108. Tracy McGrady* .1523
Andre Drummond .1519
110. Terry Dischinger .1516
111. John Drew .1515
112. Andrei Kirilenko .1513
113. Bob McAdoo* .1509
114. Elton Brand .1507
115. Derrick Favors .1505
116. Ray Allen* .1503
117. David Lee .1503
118. Paul Millsap .1502
119. Terry Porter .1499
120. Steven Adams .1498
121. Kristaps Porziņģis .1497
122. Brad Miller .1497
124. Shawn Marion .1495
126. Dennis Rodman* .1495
127. Bill Laimbeer .1492
128. Julian Hammond
129. Gary Payton* .1483
131. Kiki Vandeweghe .1479
132. Mason Plumlee .1477
134. Anderson Varejão .1475
136. Kyle Lowry .1473
137. Eddie Jones .1473
139. Horace Grant .1469
140. Peja Stojaković .1469
141. Steve Mix .1469
142. Terrell Brandon .1469
144. Ricky Pierce .1464
146. Jack Sikma* .1461
148. Calvin Natt .1459
150. Jeff Foster .1448
151. Amir Johnson .1448
152. Carlos Boozer .1432
153. Brent Barry .1432
154. Larry Jones .1429
155. Maurice Cheeks* .1426
157. Mehmet Okur .1425
158. Marcin Gortat .1422
159. Larry Costello*
160. James Silas .1420
161. Tom Owens .1417
162. David West .1414
163. Dale Davis .1408
164. Sam Cassell .1408
166. Billy Cunningham* .1406
168. Danilo Gallinari .1401
169. Ben Wallace* .1399
170. Steve Kerr .1397
172. Tony Parker* .1396
174. Serge Ibaka .1394
175. Steve Smith .1393
176. Rasheed Wallace .1392
177. George Hill .1391
178. Chris Mullin* .1389
179. Doc Rivers .1389
181. Mike Conley .1387
182. Zydrunas Ilgauskas .1386
184. Anthony Mason .1385
185. Sam Perkins .1382
187. Grant Hill* .1379
190. Greg Monroe .1368
191. Vlade Divac* .1368
192. Donovan Mitchell .1366
193. Marcus Camby .1366
194. Kevin Martin .1365
197. Hersey Hawkins .1358
198. Buck Williams .1358
199. Pascal Siakam .1356
203. Ryan Anderson .1337
204. Michael Redd .1335
208. Calvin Murphy* .1319
209. Dan Roundfield .1318
212. Brook Lopez .1316
214. Russell Westbrook .1311

Mason Plumlee ranks 132nd. Even allowing for a big man skew to the marks, it's kind of hard to characterize Plumlee as fantastic; or Ryan Anderson, Michael Redd, Greg Monroe, Vlade, Anthony Mason, Gallinari, Tom Owens, Brent Barry, Calvin Natt, Amir Johnson, Okur, or Enes Freedom...all of whom had better career marks

I'd wonder where the cut-off is where fantastic drops to good
 
wizenheimer said:
quite a bit actually. To start with, I think "fantastic" is pretty similar, in NBA terms, to elite

Aldridge, Terry Porter, Steve Smith, Buck Williams...4 Blazers who had higher winshares/48 than Westbrook

Westbrook ranks 214th on the career winshare/48 list:

Mason Plumlee ranks 132nd. Even allowing for a big man skew to the marks, it's kind of hard to characterize Plumlee as fantastic; or Ryan Anderson, Michael Redd, Greg Monroe, Vlade, Anthony Mason, Gallinari, Tom Owens, Brent Barry, Calvin Natt, Amir Johnson, Okur, or Enes Freedom...all of whom had better career marks

I'd wonder where the cut-off is where fantastic drops to good
Click to expand...

Now filter those to players that had such a long career...

Anytime you have a player that had a 17 years career he had a very good career. When his career ws/48 for such a long career still falls in the "very good" player category - I declare him officially as having had a fantastic career . Hope this clears your confusion.

Even your 214 position should be considered fantastic given that since the 1980s when they started having enough data to calculate this stat there were about 4000-5000 players that participated in the NBA.

I am really not sure why we are even arguing it. Westbrook had a fantastic career and his WS/48 reflects it, it's really not up to debate. What he did not have, is a generational level career like some of the people that original post implied because of his rare, but not that significant triple double record.
 
andalusian said:
Now filter those to players that had such a long career...

Anytime you have a player that had a 17 years career he had a very good career. When his career ws/48 for such a long career still falls in the "very good" player category - I declare him officially as having had a fantastic career . Hope this clears your confusion.

Even your 214 position should be considered fantastic given that since the 1980s when they started having enough data to calculate this stat there were about 4000-5000 players that participated in the NBA.

I am really not sure why we are even arguing it. Westbrook had a fantastic career and his WS/48 reflects it, it's really not up to debate. What he did not have, is a generational level career like some of the people that original post implied because of his rare, but not that significant triple double record.
Click to expand...
It’s a bad way to judge a career no question.
Just look at the names that are at the top of that list. Some pretty fantastic players land a ways down it.
I think Westbrook is playing this year also. So expect him to drop another few positions.
 
andalusian said:
Now filter those to players that had such a long career...

Anytime you have a player that had a 17 years career he had a very good career. When his career ws/48 for such a long career still falls in the "very good" player category - I declare him officially as having had a fantastic career . Hope this clears your confusion.

Even your 214 position should be considered fantastic given that since the 1980s when they started having enough data to calculate this stat there were about 4000-5000 players that participated in the NBA.

I am really not sure why we are even arguing it. Westbrook had a fantastic career and his WS/48 reflects it, it's really not up to debate. What he did not have, is a generational level career like some of the people that original post implied because of his rare, but not that significant triple double record.
Click to expand...

I'm not disputing that Westbrook has had a fantastic career, he has; I'm disputing his winshare/48 mark is fantastic
 
wizenheimer said:
quite a bit actually. To start with, I think "fantastic" is pretty similar, in NBA terms, to elite

Aldridge, Terry Porter, Steve Smith, Buck Williams...4 Blazers who had higher winshares/48 than Westbrook

Westbrook ranks 214th on the career winshare/48 list:

5. Neil Johnston* .2413
10. Rudy Gobert .2192
13. Bob Pettit* .2128
21. Jimmy Butler .2062
27. Jarrett Allen .2000
30. Artis Gilmore* .1931
34. Dolph Schayes* .1922
35. Clint Capela .1920
36. Manu Ginóbili* .1902
38. Adrian Dantley* .1887
39. Sidney Moncrief* .1873
40. Karl-Anthony Towns .1859
41. Paul Arizin* .1833
43. Sam Jones* .1824
45. Dan Issel* .1813
46. Kevin McHale* .1802
47. Bailey Howell* .1799
50. Clyde Lovellette* .1777
51. Kevin Johnson .1777
54. Reggie Miller* .1758
56. Bobby Jones* .1755
57. Bob Lanier* .1751
59. Damian Lillard .1742
62. Jonas Valančiūnas .1724
Dwight Howard* .1724
64. Zelmo Beaty* .1715
65. Larry Nance .1713
67. DeAndre Jordan .1702
68. Cliff Hagan* .1700
70. Amar'e Stoudemire .1691
73. Chet Walker* .1685
75. Kevin Love .1656
76. Connie Hawkins* .1656
77. Don Nelson* .1651
80. Kyrie Irving .1625
82. Dwyane Wade* .1620
83. Marques Johnson .1616
85. Walt Bellamy* .1603
87. Bam Adebayo .1594
88. Joakim Noah .1593
89. Chris Bosh* .1593
90. Cedric Maxwell .1585
91. Mark Price .1582
92. Enes Freedom .1574
94. George Gervin* .1568
95. Al Horford .1567
96. Detlef Schrempf .1565
97. David Thompson* .1565
100. Willis Reed* .1558
101. Paul Westphal* .1551
102. Tyson Chandler .1550
105. Jeff Hornacek .1539
106. LaMarcus Aldridge .1532
108. Tracy McGrady* .1523
Andre Drummond .1519
110. Terry Dischinger .1516
111. John Drew .1515
112. Andrei Kirilenko .1513
113. Bob McAdoo* .1509
114. Elton Brand .1507
115. Derrick Favors .1505
116. Ray Allen* .1503
117. David Lee .1503
118. Paul Millsap .1502
119. Terry Porter .1499
120. Steven Adams .1498
121. Kristaps Porziņģis .1497
122. Brad Miller .1497
124. Shawn Marion .1495
126. Dennis Rodman* .1495
127. Bill Laimbeer .1492
128. Julian Hammond
129. Gary Payton* .1483
131. Kiki Vandeweghe .1479
132. Mason Plumlee .1477
134. Anderson Varejão .1475
136. Kyle Lowry .1473
137. Eddie Jones .1473
139. Horace Grant .1469
140. Peja Stojaković .1469
141. Steve Mix .1469
142. Terrell Brandon .1469
144. Ricky Pierce .1464
146. Jack Sikma* .1461
148. Calvin Natt .1459
150. Jeff Foster .1448
151. Amir Johnson .1448
152. Carlos Boozer .1432
153. Brent Barry .1432
154. Larry Jones .1429
155. Maurice Cheeks* .1426
157. Mehmet Okur .1425
158. Marcin Gortat .1422
159. Larry Costello*
160. James Silas .1420
161. Tom Owens .1417
162. David West .1414
163. Dale Davis .1408
164. Sam Cassell .1408
166. Billy Cunningham* .1406
168. Danilo Gallinari .1401
169. Ben Wallace* .1399
170. Steve Kerr .1397
172. Tony Parker* .1396
174. Serge Ibaka .1394
175. Steve Smith .1393
176. Rasheed Wallace .1392
177. George Hill .1391
178. Chris Mullin* .1389
179. Doc Rivers .1389
181. Mike Conley .1387
182. Zydrunas Ilgauskas .1386
184. Anthony Mason .1385
185. Sam Perkins .1382
187. Grant Hill* .1379
190. Greg Monroe .1368
191. Vlade Divac* .1368
192. Donovan Mitchell .1366
193. Marcus Camby .1366
194. Kevin Martin .1365
197. Hersey Hawkins .1358
198. Buck Williams .1358
199. Pascal Siakam .1356
203. Ryan Anderson .1337
204. Michael Redd .1335
208. Calvin Murphy* .1319
209. Dan Roundfield .1318
212. Brook Lopez .1316
214. Russell Westbrook .1311

Mason Plumlee ranks 132nd. Even allowing for a big man skew to the marks, it's kind of hard to characterize Plumlee as fantastic; or Ryan Anderson, Michael Redd, Greg Monroe, Vlade, Anthony Mason, Gallinari, Tom Owens, Brent Barry, Calvin Natt, Amir Johnson, Okur, or Enes Freedom...all of whom had better career marks

I'd wonder where the cut-off is where fantastic drops to good
Click to expand...

Seen Artis Gilmore's name on the list, it reminded me of one afternoon after the CShip I had an opportunity to talk with the Big Red head for a while, he said Artis Gilmore was the strongest player he ever played against and he loved the Running Rebels with Reggie Theus.
 
wizenheimer said:
I'm not disputing that Westbrook has had a fantastic career, he has; I'm disputing his winshare/48 mark is fantastic
Click to expand...

For a career of 17 years being in the top 5% of all the players that played in the NBA since the record keeping days? OK. I guess that fantastic is a subjective value - to me that is definitely a fantastic mark given the context of his longevity.
 
andalusian said:
For a career of 17 years being in the top 5% of all the players that played in the NBA since the record keeping days? OK. I guess that fantastic is a subjective value - to me that is definitely a fantastic mark given the context of his longevity.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's 5%

that list I posted was from BBREF, and their criteria for inclusion was a player was the player must have played at least 15,000 total minutes

upload_2025-9-20_10-1-16.png

I'm not sure exactly what 'approximately 500' means in this case; and I don't know how many players went over that minimum this last season. If you assume 550 players then Westbrook is barely in the top 50%. Now, if you want to dilute the filters to include players like Peter Verhoven, Victor Claver, and Keljin Blevins, then OK. But I think it's better to gauge Westbrook against other players with substantial careers
 

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I think I am bored of this argument. I think his WS/48 is fantastic for his long career. You think it's not. Whatever.
 
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