Around the NBA - July 2017 Edition (7 Viewers)

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Minstrel said:
He's Gallinari with much better defense and the ability to create for teammates. That would be an exciting player to get, yeah.
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Don't forget the "slightly worse O" and "no ability to play smallball 4"
 
Scalma said:
Hayward improved all areas of his game this season. He went from borderline all star to superstar.
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!!!

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Rastapopoulos said:
Don't forget the "slightly worse O" and "no ability to play smallball 4"
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Why do you say he has no ability to play smallball 4? At 6'8'' and with better defense than a lot of current smallball (or regular ball) power forwards, I definitely think he could.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Dame literally defends the most talented position in the NBA.

What stat do you put credence in, or are you only willing to accept anecdotal?
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I look at the stats too. But i laugh at people that say oh this is why the stats were this way or that way. Because you can literally say that about everything.

I hate it when dudes try to prove everything on a stat. It's a piece of the pie, but as you tried to explain away Gobert being the main reason haywards rating is what it is, it is only a piece of the puzzle.
 
Scalma said:
Hayward improved all areas of his game this season. He went from borderline all star to superstar. He plays both ends. I don't know if he's a better player than Dame when you take everything into account, but he's definitely better than CJ.
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The Blazers don't want anything to do with players that are already developed like Heyward though.
 
Minstrel said:
Why do you say he has no ability to play smallball 4? At 6'8'' and with better defense than a lot of current smallball (or regular ball) power forwards, I definitely think he could.
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Is he really 6'8"? Because he doesn't look it.

I don't get why he eliminated Miami. It seems to me that's the place that needs him most and that he'd make the most difference to.
 
Here's a Jazz fan complaining about Hayward's defense. Have to say that the reasoning seems suspect, as perhaps somebody can explain:

What? Gordon's defense is SO BAD he costs the Jazz around 8 points a game from what just an average starter does. You asked ONLY if he was one of those good options to answer from lol no bad options were listed to answer from. Gordon is a very BAD defender! The proof is in the numbers. They tell you what happened on the court. Gordons d-rating is 107. Doesn't sound too bad, does it? But then consider that he spends 2/3 of his time playing alongside Rudy Gobert, who's rating is 101. So just in the small amount of time when Rudy isn't out there with him, to save him, we see that hes giving up 3 baskets on his own. BUT thats whike not even factoring in the part of that time he still has Favors out there with him, who has a 103 rating, meaning Favors prevents 2.5 points per 100 possessions under avg too. So by Gordon bringing that number all the way up to 107, due to the time Favors isn't out there lowering some of that either we can see hes costing even 4 more points over avg to be scored on himself. Factoring in playing with everyone he does all together, Hayward is 7 to 8 points per game below average as a defender. He costs the Jazz that many points by himself each game.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Here's a Jazz fan complaining about Hayward's defense. Have to say that the reasoning seems suspect, as perhaps somebody can explain:

What? Gordon's defense is SO BAD he costs the Jazz around 8 points a game from what just an average starter does. You asked ONLY if he was one of those good options to answer from lol no bad options were listed to answer from. Gordon is a very BAD defender! The proof is in the numbers. They tell you what happened on the court. Gordons d-rating is 107. Doesn't sound too bad, does it? But then consider that he spends 2/3 of his time playing alongside Rudy Gobert, who's rating is 101. So just in the small amount of time when Rudy isn't out there with him, to save him, we see that hes giving up 3 baskets on his own. BUT thats whike not even factoring in the part of that time he still has Favors out there with him, who has a 103 rating, meaning Favors prevents 2.5 points per 100 possessions under avg too. So by Gordon bringing that number all the way up to 107, due to the time Favors isn't out there lowering some of that either we can see hes costing even 4 more points over avg to be scored on himself. Factoring in playing with everyone he does all together, Hayward is 7 to 8 points per game below average as a defender. He costs the Jazz that many points by himself each game.
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For all you know that could be their mixum. Watch the games and make ypur own opinion
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Come on man. Gobert or not, hayward is a better defender in the league than Dame.

Obviously gobert helps the drating, but really?

I would trade CJ for an instant for Hayward.

I would be hesitant with Lillard, but it wouldn't shock me if other fans without rose colored glasses picked Hayward over Lillard.
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It's not just Gobert, Hayward benefited by being surrounded by great defenders. The reason UTA was so much better this past season is that they added George Hill. They were 33-16 in games Hill played and 18-15 in games he didn't. Gobert, Hill and Favors are all excellent defenders.

And yes, I have watched the games. Hayward is an excellent player, but not a good defender. You saw how much adding Nurk did to our team defense. Imagine how much Hayward benefited from playing with Gobert, Favors and Hill. Surround Dame with three great defenders and suddenly his defense becomes a lot less of an issue.

BNM
 
Statistically, it's going to be hard to get a good idea of Hayward's defense until he's not in the safe bosom of Utah's overall team defense. However, from the analysis I've read from people like Zach Lowe, Hayward is viewed as a solid defender. Not a stand-out defender, but around average. That fits with how he looks to me, though I'm hardly a scout. I don't think you acquire Hayward with the idea that he's going to turn your defense around, but adding solid defense to his other skills is quite valuable.
 
Boob-No-More said:
No, I most certainly did not. Perhaps you forgot Gordon Hayward isn't exactly a lock down defender either.

Dame is the better player overall and would easily still be our best player if we somehow got Gordon Hayward.

BNM
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Come on dude. That is a :hcp: statement. It's way closer than you're making it out to be. If you want Lillard over Hayward fine. I disagree abouy CJ over Hayward but I acknowledge people could want Lillard over Hayward.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Come on man. Gobert or not, hayward is a better defender in the league than Dame.

Obviously gobert helps the drating, but really?

I would trade CJ for an instant for Hayward.

I would be hesitant with Lillard, but it wouldn't shock me if other fans without rose colored glasses picked Hayward over Lillard.
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CJ is a better player than Gordon.
I understand where you're coming from, i like 2-way players too,yet i have seen most of the Jazz games in the 1st round and my impression was that Joe Johnson was the guy carrying the Jazz late in games for a good reason.

Hayward has a limited offensive toolbox. He's better than CJ at being the 3rd string on a winning team, but he can't produce points like CJ, he can't really win games as "the guy".
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Come on dude. That is a :hcp: statement. It's way closer than you're making it out to be. If you want Lillard over Hayward fine. I disagree abouy CJ over Hayward but I acknowledge people could want Lillard over Hayward.
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Not sure who you're disagreeing with. I didn't say C.J was better than Hayward. I said they would be neck-and-neck as our No. 2 option.

As far as Lillard vs. Hayward. Hayward has been the No. 1 option on his team for several years, but never averaged over 20 ppg until this past season, his 7th in the league. In his five years in the league, Dame has averaged > 20 ppg four times He averaged over 20 ppg even when he was the 2nd option behind Aldridge.

Their TS% is pretty much a wash, both last season and for their careers. Neither are lock down defenders. Dame has been more productive, both last year and for his career.

Dame:
2016-17: 27.0 ppg, PER = 24.2
Career: 22.4 ppg, PER = 20.2, WS = 45.5. WS/48 = .152, VORP = 18.7

Hayward:
2016-17: 21.9 ppg, PER = 22.2
Career: 15.7 ppg, PER = 17.7, WS = 43.0. WS/48 = .128, VORP = 16.3

Dame is better and it has nothing to do with the color of my glasses. He has more win shares and a higher VORP in 5 years that Hayward has in 7.

BNM
 
Mediocre Man said:
So were nba coaches when they voted him to the all star team in a loaded west
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Nope, they rated him exactly where he should have been rated at the time. He was the 3rd best SF in the West behind Durant and Kawhi (HUGE drop off after those two) and the leading scorer on a team that was 35-22. Based on team record, UTA deserved an all star and Hayward was the appropriate choice.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Nope, they rated him exactly where he should have been rated at the time. He was the 3rd best SF in the West behind Durant and Kawhi (HUGE drop off after those two) and the leading scorer on a team that was 35-22. Based on team record, UTA deserved an all star and Hayward was the appropriate choice.

BNM
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Right, an all star. A damn good player, too
 
Minstrel said:
Statistically, it's going to be hard to get a good idea of Hayward's defense until he's not in the safe bosom of Utah's overall team defense. However, from the analysis I've read from people like Zach Lowe, Hayward is viewed as a solid defender. Not a stand-out defender, but around average. That fits with how he looks to me, though I'm hardly a scout. I don't think you acquire Hayward with the idea that he's going to turn your defense around, but adding solid defense to his other skills is quite valuable.
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That's sort of my view of Hayward as a whole: solid, maybe pretty good. Nothing about his game jumps out at you. Golden State has 4 players better than him. And honestly Iggy is more of a difference-maker, certainly when he was Hayward's age.
 
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