Around the NBA Playoffs - Round Two

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hoopsjock said:
I think part of that is we only really remember the teams that are really good that make coaching changes. Is it possible that the coach isn't as important as the players developing? If Steph Curry doesn't transform into an MVP level player does it really matter who the coach was? Could Mark Jackson have led that team to a title that next year? Impossible to answer so I see your point about the new eyes but that team also never missed a beat when Kerr was out with health concerns both regular season and playoffs. George Karl had the Nuggets in the playoffs every year and was fired after winning coach of the year. The Nuggets haven't made the playoffs since.

I think the greater question is how far can coaching go? Brad Stevens might be having one of the greatest coaching effects of all time this post season but that team isn't going to win the championship this year. He'd need his full compliment of really talented players to have a chance in the Finals. It will be interesting to see how Toronto does next year. I'll tell you this much though, it would take DeRozan and the rest of the team playing a heck of a lot better than they did in the playoffs to proceed further. I don't know if a new coach can get much more out of that team.

Portland is in a bit of a weird situation. It's possible that hiring someone that is a WAY better playoff coach (Basically a Playoff Coach version of Playoff Rondo) also leads to the Blazers just missing the playoffs because he/she isn't as good with the flow of the regular season and there isn't much separation between teams 3-10 in the West. It's a different sport I know but in 2006 the Chargers fired Marty Schottenheimer coming off a 14-2 season but a disappointing loss in the playoffs. The next year they went 11-5 under Norv Turner and made it all the way to the AFC Championship game. In all but a few years after that they have been pretty mediocre since. A drop off of a few games for the Blazers might result in being on the outside looking in even if they are more equipped for a post season run.

Now I'm not saying that will for sure happen and that they should just never fire Stotts either. My point is just that it isn't as simple as bringing in a new coach leads to teams taking the next step.
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hoopsjock said:
I think part of that is we only really remember the teams that are really good that make coaching changes. Is it possible that the coach isn't as important as the players developing? If Steph Curry doesn't transform into an MVP level player does it really matter who the coach was? Could Mark Jackson have led that team to a title that next year? Impossible to answer so I see your point about the new eyes but that team also never missed a beat when Kerr was out with health concerns both regular season and playoffs. George Karl had the Nuggets in the playoffs every year and was fired after winning coach of the year. The Nuggets haven't made the playoffs since.

I think the greater question is how far can coaching go? Brad Stevens might be having one of the greatest coaching effects of all time this post season but that team isn't going to win the championship this year. He'd need his full compliment of really talented players to have a chance in the Finals. It will be interesting to see how Toronto does next year. I'll tell you this much though, it would take DeRozan and the rest of the team playing a heck of a lot better than they did in the playoffs to proceed further. I don't know if a new coach can get much more out of that team.

Portland is in a bit of a weird situation. It's possible that hiring someone that is a WAY better playoff coach (Basically a Playoff Coach version of Playoff Rondo) also leads to the Blazers just missing the playoffs because he/she isn't as good with the flow of the regular season and there isn't much separation between teams 3-10 in the West. It's a different sport I know but in 2006 the Chargers fired Marty Schottenheimer coming off a 14-2 season but a disappointing loss in the playoffs. The next year they went 11-5 under Norv Turner and made it all the way to the AFC Championship game. In all but a few years after that they have been pretty mediocre since. A drop off of a few games for the Blazers might result in being on the outside looking in even if they are more equipped for a post season run.

Now I'm not saying that will for sure happen and that they should just never fire Stotts either. My point is just that it isn't as simple as bringing in a new coach leads to teams taking the next step.
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I can agree with that. It definitely takes more than just hiring a new coach too. Like I don’t think there’s any situation in which you can throw Brad Stevens on a mediocre to good team and they will be expected to win it all next year.

I just think unless you’re willing to make some pretty big roster changes or you can sign a big FA, keeping a coach around that has had years to evaluate, adapt, and make the necessary coaching changes yet has still had the same results in the playoffs is any better of an idea than bringing someone new in.

Lebron is Lebron, he’s super human. But man that Cavs team is as weak as he’s had since the Eric Snow years and they have some real weaknesses. I don’t think most people would even have them making the WCF if they were in the West. Yet they still swept the Raptors with relative ease after a year where the Raptors changed a ton just to hopefully be a formidable opponent against the Cavs. Seems like they got Casey’s best shot, on a down year for the Cavs, with a deeper roster, and still got swept.

I can get behind staying the course with a roster to let them develop and become a better team, I’m just not so sure about using the same philosophy with coaches. I don’t think coaches develop quite like players and once you get a pretty clear view of what they got, that’s probably about it. Good coaches can win titles with great rosters, the Raptors (and Blazers) don’t have a great roster and it’s a simpler path to try and bring in who you think is a great coach than it is to keep a good coach and turn a good roster into a great one. If that makes any sense.
 
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BBert said:
I suspect that might be too many Alphas
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getting fired takes a lot of alpha outta a coach....whole.lot of head coaches are assistants now....Coach Bud is probably waiting for Pop to retire for his dream job.
 
AFully22 said:
I can agree with that. It definitely takes more than just hiring a new coach too. Like I don’t think there’s any situation in which you can throw Brad Stevens on a mediocre to good team and they will be expected to win it all next year.

I just think unless you’re willing to make some pretty big roster changes or you can sign a big FA, keeping a coach around that has had years to evaluate, adapt, and make the necessary coaching changes yet has still had the same results in the playoffs is any better of an idea than bringing someone new in.

Lebron is Lebron, he’s super human. But man that Cavs team is as weak as he’s had since the Eric Snow years and they have some real weaknesses. I don’t think most people would even have them making the WCF if they were in the West. Yet they still swept the Raptors with relative ease after a year where the Raptors changed a ton just to hopefully be a formidable opponent against the Cavs. Seems like they got Casey’s best shot, on a down year for the Cavs, with a deeper roster, and still got swept.

I can get behind staying the course with a roster to let them develop and become a better team, I’m just not so sure about using the same philosophy with coaches. I don’t think coaches develop quite like players and once you get a pretty clear view of what they got, that’s probably about it. Good coaches can win titles with great rosters, the Raptors (and Blazers) don’t have a great roster and it’s a simpler path to try and bring in who you think is a great coach than it is to keep a good coach and turn a good roster into a great one. If that makes any sense.
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Yeah, that makes total sense and I completely see that point of view. My only issue with it is that unless a proven great coach becomes available you are either hiring a retread (Budenholzer, Casey, Stotts), a college coach that may or may not have success in the NBA (most don't, Stevens is more of an exception), an assistant coach (wild card), or someone with no coaching experience (like a broadcaster or ex-player). It seems to me like you would have to get somewhat lucky. That is why I would be fine with letting Stotts go if there was a succession plan but don't really think he should be fired just to fire him.
 
hoopsjock said:
Yeah, that makes total sense and I completely see that point of view. My only issue with it is that unless a proven great coach becomes available you are either hiring a retread (Budenholzer, Casey, Stotts), a college coach that may or may not have success in the NBA (most don't, Stevens is more of an exception), an assistant coach (wild card), or someone with no coaching experience (like a broadcaster or ex-player). It seems to me like you would have to get somewhat lucky. That is why I would be fine with letting Stotts go if there was a succession plan but don't really think he should be fired just to fire him.
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Yea I don’t think we should fire Stotts for just the sake of change. We could do a lot worse than Coach Stotts. If a guy like Budenholzer wanted the job however I wouldn’t think twice about making the change. There’s not a lot of those type of coaches out there though I agree.
 
AFully22 said:
Yea I don’t think we should fire Stotts for just the sake of change. We could do a lot worse than Coach Stotts. If a guy like Budenholzer wanted the job however I wouldn’t think twice about making the change. There’s not a lot of those type of coaches out there though I agree.
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I would rather have:
Jay Wright
Tony Bennett
Mike Budenholzer
Ime Udoka
Ettore Messina
Dwayne Casey
than Terry Stotts.
 
Zach Lowe had some interesting stuff on firing Casey on his podcast that articulates why it makes sense better than I could. Essentially said that based off of results alone, Casey probably shouldn’t be fired but HOW he got the results and his coaching skill set gave reasons to believe they would be better off with a different coach.

He got the results from being a culture and system coach but when it came to the playoffs he was bad at game management and when it mattered the most his weaknesses were consistently exploited. Which I thought sounded sort of familiar.

We just had an entire era of really good coaches that excelled in culture and system (Pop, Spo, Carlisle) but are beginning to transition into an era where getting the most out of players through game management and scheme has beaten out those system coaches, unless the talent disparity is just too large. Kind of interesting. I think Steve Kerr was one of the first examples of that although the roster he inherited obviously helped.

Those are a lot of the same ideas behind why I would move on from Stotts given the right coach is available. Lowe mentioned that the last straw for Casey was probably when he decided to play straight up against Lebron on his game winner in G3. He said once Lebron realized they weren’t even thinking about sending any help he knew it would be one on one against a rookie and he could get to his spot. A coach better at game management would have at least made him think about another defense coming and caused some hesitation from Lebron but the lack of innovation or creativity from Casey allowed Lebron to just focus on beating his man alone. That and a weaker team in the Pacers just won 3 games against Cleveland including one by 30 pts. Cleveland had them figured out and the front office didn’t have confidence in Casey to be able to re invent the wheel AGAIN because his game management would stay the same.
 
AFully22 said:
Zach Lowe had some interesting stuff on firing Casey on his podcast that articulates why it makes sense better than I could. Essentially said that based off of results alone, Casey probably shouldn’t be fired but HOW he got the results and his coaching skill set gave reasons to believe they would be better off with a different coach.

He got the results from being a culture and system coach but when it came to the playoffs he was bad at game management and when it mattered the most his weaknesses were consistently exploited. Which I thought sounded sort of familiar.

We just had an entire era of really good coaches that excelled in culture and system (Pop, Spo, Carlisle) but are beginning to transition into an era where getting the most out of players through game management and scheme has beaten out those system coaches, unless the talent disparity is just too large. Kind of interesting. I think Steve Kerr was one of the first examples of that although the roster he inherited obviously helped.

Those are a lot of the same ideas behind why I would move on from Stotts given the right coach is available. Lowe mentioned that the last straw for Casey was probably when he decided to play straight up against Lebron on his game winner in G3. He said once Lebron realized they weren’t even thinking about sending any help he knew it would be one on one against a rookie and he could get to his spot. A coach better at game management would have at least made him think about another defense coming and caused some hesitation from Lebron but the lack of innovation or creativity from Casey allowed Lebron to just focus on beating his man alone. That and a weaker team in the Pacers just won 3 games against Cleveland including one by 30 pts. Cleveland had them figured out and the front office didn’t have confidence in Casey to be able to re invent the wheel AGAIN because his game management would stay the same.
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Sounds exactly like our favorite coach...
 
BonesJones said:
Sounds exactly like our favorite coach...
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Casey and Stotts are different apples from the same tree for sure. What’s interesting about our situation is we need pretty significant upgrades to the roster as well. Which I think actually saved Stotts job, the roster was just bad enough where you can put enough blame on lack of talent.
 
AFully22 said:
Yea I don’t think we should fire Stotts for just the sake of change. We could do a lot worse than Coach Stotts.
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None of these 9 newly-fired ones would be any worse. There must be some who would be better.
 
jlprk said:
None of these 9 newly-fired ones would be any worse. There must be some who would be better.
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Budenholzer had a really bad season...some say he mailed it in...Terry Stotts is a coach who needs one more piece minimum roster wise to make his system work....A young Ray Allen type sharpshooter...give him that guy and he'll win a lot of games.
 
riverman said:
Budenholzer had a really bad season...some say he mailed it in...Terry Stotts is a coach who needs one more piece minimum roster wise to make his system work....A young Ray Allen type sharpshooter...give him that guy and he'll win a lot of games.
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Give me that guy and Dame and I'd win a lot of games saying "go play now"
 
riverman said:
Budenholzer had a really bad season...some say he mailed it in...Terry Stotts is a coach who needs one more piece minimum roster wise to make his system work....A young Ray Allen type sharpshooter...give him that guy and he'll win a lot of games.
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What coach wouldn’t...? You have Dame, CJ and a young Ray Allen? Even I could coach them too a few wins.
I agree They are a piece or two away.
 
riverman said:
Budenholzer had a really bad season...some say he mailed it in...Terry Stotts is a coach who needs one more piece minimum roster wise to make his system work....A young Ray Allen type sharpshooter...give him that guy and he'll win a lot of games.
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Lol.. Budenholzer mailed it in? Look at the pieces he had... you guys blame the roster to defend Stotts, but then you'll blame Budenholzer when he was working with THAT?

Makes no sense.
 
riverman said:
Budenholzer had a really bad season...some say he mailed it in...Terry Stotts is a coach who needs one more piece minimum roster wise to make his system work....A young Ray Allen type sharpshooter...give him that guy and he'll win a lot of games.
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What piece is it that you speak of?.. And how exactly do we acquire him given how Olshey has messed up our roster?
 
BonesJones said:
Makes no sense.
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I read about it in a couple of articles but hey....they're not your opinions so this is your standard reaction...go figure....sometimes coaches quit on teams just like players do...sometimes coaches burn out.....his results in Atlanta weren't stellar in the end. As to who that young Ray Allen sharpshooter is that we need...I have no idea who it is. I don't think our roster is as messed up as you do Bones...I like Stotts and Olshey...let's not have that conversation again..you don't like them. One article I read said coach Bud has lost value over the last couple seasons....talk about a team nobody wants to play for....it's the Hawks....even hometown D Howard bailed after one year under coach Bud....who has essentially quit on his team while under contract...not a good look
 
riverman said:
I read about it in a couple of articles but hey....they're not your opinions so this is your standard reaction...go figure....sometimes coaches quit on teams just like players do...sometimes coaches burn out.....his results in Atlanta weren't stellar in the end. As to who that young Ray Allen sharpshooter is that we need...I have no idea who it is. I don't think our roster is as messed up as you do Bones...I like Stotts and Olshey...let's not have that conversation again..you don't like them. One article I read said coach Bud has lost value over the last couple seasons....talk about a team nobody wants to play for....it's the Hawks....even hometown D Howard bailed after one year under coach Bud....who has essentially quit on his team while under contract...not a good look
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So much misinformation.

His results in Atlanta with real players were stellar. Without real players, they were crap. It's ironic that you can't point to his roster as a problem but you can defend Stotts that way. I don't think our roster is messed up at all, I think it's better than most Stotts-defenders do, as I think the problem is coaching, not roster. Also, Dwight Howard got traded... he didn't bail.

You're sitting here acting as if the opinion that "Budenholzer quit on his team" is fact, because you read it somewhere. It's this narrative that's not based in any substance, but since it could htpothetically be a Stotts replacement, stuff has to be made up to Bud's detriment.

In my first post to you, I was just pointing out the obvious irony which I guess you didn't see.
 
BonesJones said:
So much misinformation.

His results in Atlanta with real players were stellar. Without real players, they were crap. It's ironic that you can't point to his roster as a problem but you can defend Stotts that way. I don't think our roster is messed up at all, I think it's better than most Stotts-defenders do, as I think the problem is coaching, not roster. Also, Dwight Howard got traded... he didn't bail.

You're sitting here acting as if the opinion that "Budenholzer quit on his team" is fact, because you read it somewhere. It's this narrative that's not based in any substance, but since it could htpothetically be a Stotts replacement, stuff has to be made up to Bud's detriment.

In my first post to you, I was just pointing out the obvious irony which I guess you didn't see.
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I read about it Bones....stop with the snark please....I'm not sitting here acting like anything...I read he lost value THIS season and he didn't make it work with Howard....he asked to be let out of his contract and then bailed on a Phoenix interview...nothing to do with Stotts or you or me....several coaches have been hired since he's been available...apparently I'm not the only one questioning his value in the present....he had a few great years ...last couple, not so much.
If my post doesn't interest you...feel free to not engage it. and don't put intentions in my posts..that's baiting
 
riverman said:
I read about it Bones....stop with the snark please....I'm not sitting here acting like anything...I read he lost value THIS season and he didn't make it work with Howard....he asked to be let out of his contract and then bailed on a Phoenix interview...nothing to do with Stotts or you or me....several coaches have been hired since he's been available...apparently I'm not the only one questioning his value in the present....he had a few great years ...last couple, not so much.
If my post doesn't interest you...feel free to not engage it. and don't put intentions in my posts..that's baiting
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A wise man once said, "don't believe everything you read". How did he not make it work with Howard? They traded him for cap relief because they knew they were gonna be trash this season. Several coaches have been hired... so? There's other good coaching candidates out there.

I just ask that you try to see the irony in people that defend Stotts because our roster is flawed and then trash Budenholzer for his coaching with a roster made up almost entirely of G-league level players. It's ironic.
 
BonesJones said:
A wise man once said, "don't believe everything you read". How did he not make it work with Howard? They traded him for cap relief because they knew they were gonna be trash this season. Several coaches have been hired... so? There's other good coaching candidates out there.

I just ask that you try to see the irony in people that defend Stotts because our roster is flawed and then trash Budenholzer for his coaching with a roster made up almost entirely of G-league level players. It's ironic.
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I’m of the opinion Stotts does not deserve to be fired yet, I think NO should be. However, in the Pelican series’ either Stotts was very badly out coached, or the Players either couldn’t execute the game plan or were ignoring him. None of those options sound good. My best argument to get rid of Stotts now would be that maybe the team just needs a new messenger and his voice doesn’t resonate the way it used to. I personally believe Stotts is a pretty good coach, not a great coach but a solid NBA coach they could do much worse.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I’m of the opinion Stotts does not deserve to be fired yet, I think NO should be. However, in the Pelican series’ either Stotts was very badly out coached, or the Players either couldn’t execute the game plan or were ignoring him. None of those options sound good. My best argument to get rid of Stotts now would be that maybe the team just needs a new messenger and his voice doesn’t resonate the way it used to. I personally believe Stotts is a pretty good coach, not a great coach but a solid NBA coach they could do much worse.
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His game management is bad, and it shows in the playoffs, just like it does with Dwayne Casey.
 
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BonesJones said:
A wise man once said, "don't believe everything you read"
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another wise man said reading is food for thought....being condescending towards people who aren't in agreement though...that isn't so wise...I didn't like seeing a coach ask to go find a job somewhere else while under contract....if that's trashing him..that's my biggest beef....Stotts hasn't done that..and I like Stotts and quite a bit of our roster..there's no irony in that...it's my view. You post a million trade ideas and I don't reply to most of them telling you you're without a clue....basically you just don't need to give a like to a post you don't like. A wise man once said it's best to walk away and not engage in things you don't value or respect.
 
I think Stotts and Casey are great coaches...both lost a playoff series...15 coaches do every year..lot of things factor into that and most can be learned from
 
riverman said:
another wise man said reading is food for thought....being condescending towards people who aren't in agreement though...that isn't so wise...I didn't like seeing a coach ask to go find a job somewhere else while under contract....if that's trashing him..that's my biggest beef....Stotts hasn't done that..and I like Stotts and quite a bit of our roster..there's no irony in that...it's my view. You post a million trade ideas and I don't reply to most of them telling you you're without a clue....basically you just don't need to give a like to a post you don't like. A wise man once said it's best to walk away and not engage in things you don't value or respect.
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Not liking a coach for trying to find a job elsewhere while under contract is totally understandable. That's completely different than blaming him for not doing enough with that shitty roster while defending Stotts as if our roster is shit. You don't think our roster is the problem, but most Stotts-defenders do. I'm not saying you don't have a clue, I'm just asking for you to see the irony in that.

Also, I'm not going to assume Bud quit just because an "article" claims he did. People claim a lot of stuff and difference between a fan and someone who reports on a local team is that the reporter has a platform and usually, a few more iffy sources. So I'm not going to hold it against Bud that he couldn't make that situation work.
 
I run out of words on this Celtics team. They have 2 wings that can play defense, rebound and runs the break. Also a Center in Horford who can run the break as Point/Center. Two issues the Blazers don’t have right now.
 
DDolla said:
I run out of words on this Celtics team. They have 2 wings that can play defense, rebound and runs the break. Also a Center in Horford who can run the break as Point/Center. Two issues the Blazers don’t have right now.
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The difference is the Celtics star players are versatile wings who can play multiple positions and like to pass and play defense... the Blazers on the other hand are going all in on 2 undersized ISO ball chuckers who don’t play defense... hopefully after next season Neil will realize what many of us already see today... that Dame and CJ need to be broken up
 
Gronk Brady said:
The difference is the Celtics star players are versatile wings who can play multiple positions and like to pass and play defense... the Blazers on the other hand are going all in on 2 undersized ISO ball chuckers who don’t play defense... hopefully after next season Neil will realize what many of us already see today... that Dame and CJ need to be broken up
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Dame & CJ play defense. Our team defense was great this year.
 
The Celtics with no All-star destroying the Cavs.
 
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