Atheist praise theism, theism praise atheism

Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Ha! Very Good God! But I hope you aren't expecting a Sherlock award. What gave me away, the chuckling at the Fools errand? Yes I copied and forgot the quotes. But did you get the message in the paste? That would be worth a Sherlock award.

seemed quite odd and since I did not read the book, it's really difficult to answer. But, considering that every theoretical physicist I know of in some way is trying to work on a grand unifying theory, they must all disagree that it's unobtainable, which is the central thesis as far as I can tell. I'll side with every current theoretical physicist over Stanley L. Jaki. It looks to me, like he found a pretty good logic puzzle to play with.
 
seemed quite odd and since I did not read the book, it's really difficult to answer. But, considering that every theoretical physicist I know of in some way is trying to work on a grand unifying theory, they must all disagree that it's unobtainable, which is the central thesis as far as I can tell. I'll side with every current theoretical physicist over Stanley L. Jaki. It looks to me, like he found a pretty good logic puzzle to play with.

You are very quick! Choosing sides without reading the book Jaki is reviewing or Goedel.
That is remarkable decisive.
 
Last edited:
You are very quick! Choosing sides without reading the book Jaki is reviewing or Goedel.
That is remarkable decisive.

I was saying that I can't make a decision based on the books, since I have not read them. However, I do follow several of the more famous theoretical physicists and have not heard them hemming and hawing over the impossibility of finding a unified theory. So based on my current information, I don't really give much credit to one single persons theory that all theoretical physicists are chasing their tails. You have either not provided enough information yet, or I don't have the requisite understanding, but if the new information does throw a chink in the unified theory armor, I'll change my mind. I don't have the education or knowledge to understand the high level math involved in theoretical physics, so i don't have strong conclusions in the area, instead, I listen to the summaries of people who are experts in the area and expect that they are more correct than incorrect. I could be wrong. Mostly I just enjoy hearing about the scientific possibilities that have at least some likelihood of being correct, and have not been disproved.
 
I was saying that I can't make a decision based on the books, since I have not read them. However, I do follow several of the more famous theoretical physicists and have not heard them hemming and hawing over the impossibility of finding a unified theory. So based on my current information, I don't really give much credit to one single persons theory that all theoretical physicists are chasing their tails. You have either not provided enough information yet, or I don't have the requisite understanding, but if the new information does throw a chink in the unified theory armor, I'll change my mind. I don't have the education or knowledge to understand the high level math involved in theoretical physics, so i don't have strong conclusions in the area, instead, I listen to the summaries of people who are experts in the area and expect that they are more correct than incorrect. I could be wrong. Mostly I just enjoy hearing about the scientific possibilities that have at least some likelihood of being correct, and have not been disproved.

I have come to believe that some things will always remain Incomplete. Hawkins suggest in his book, A Brief History of Time. that perhaps humans are never to know as part of the design. But then no one should expect
all to give up the errand.
 
I have come to believe that some things will always remain Incomplete. Hawkins suggest in his book, A Brief History of Time. that perhaps humans are never to know as part of the design. But then no one should expect
all to give up the errand.

Although I fully agree that we will likely never know all, I do believe that all is knowable. Given of course infinite time and resources.

I'm fine with gaps in our knowledge, but I believe there are concrete laws that exist. Laws of nature exist here, different laws may exist elsewhere or in other times, but there will always be some scaffolding with which the moment is built upon. As long as there is a scaffold, some possible logic, we should theoretically be able to know.

At least that's knowing all that exists, not necessarily knowing what doesn't exist. What doesn't exist is always infinite.
 
Very good! Well almost. It is very hard to make an Atheists out of a man that uttered this bit of wisdom.



I didn't say Einstein was an atheist, but for purposes of the definition used in the context of the OP he most certainly was not a theist. He instinctively thought he "sensed" design in nature, but at the same time was also a strict determinist and quite vocally disbelieved in any sort of personal god, going as far as to mock that belief. As noted, if anything he was more accurately described as a mash up of Pantheism and agnosticism, and did at times refer to himself as an agnostic.

Also worth noting that the same instincts and reasoning that lead him to suspect a deterministic purposeful universe led him to very wrong conclusions about the nature of QM, so instincts of that sort aren't necessary trustworthy even from what are considered the greatest of human minds.
 
Here is some other thoughts for you to ponder.

If Fr. Jaki reserves special disdain for those who push religion into the realm of science by insisting on creationism, he has at least as great a disdain for those scientists who urge science as offering a materialistic explanation of everything. “Nothing shows so effectively the atrophying character of scientific thinking, or rather of a thinking that wants to be exclusively scientific, than the denial, by great scientists, of man’s free will. Einstein was one of these to his eternal shame. … A world view in which the World, or the Universe writ large is the ultimate entity, allows no room for free will, not even for thinking freely about such an ultimate entity.”



He even invokes science to demonstrate that science cannot explain all. Specifically, he invokes Gödel’s Theorem. “Only those trained in mathematical logic would savor” Gödel’s Theorem as first expressed in 1931, but, he says, it was put “in a form comprehensible to the layman” in 1962. Basically, Gödel’s Theorem demonstrates mathematically that in any arithmetic system there will be a statement that can neither be proved nor disproved; the consistency of an arithmetic system cannot be proved within that system. To prove or disprove every conceivable statement about numbers within the system, one must go outside the system to come up with new rules and axioms - thus creating a larger system with its own unprovable statements.



I admit I was confused by Fr. Jaki’s discussion of Gödel’s Theorem, even after reading it several times. Indeed, to come to my layman’s understanding of the theorem that I set forth in the preceding paragraph, I had to go outside Fr. Jaki’s book by consulting Antony Flew’s A Dictionary of Philosophy. I readily concede a mathematician may consider my condensation of the theorem technically deficient. But, I believe, my condensation allows Fr. Jaki’s salient point: “Physicists, who by 1930 were working on a theory that would unify relativity theory and quantum mechanics, should have realized that Gödel’s paper was a handwriting on the wall of their fondest aspirations. After all, their theories of physics were becoming more and more mathematical and forbiddingly so.” And, “Gödel’s theorem dealt a grievous blow to hopes about a final physical theory because this could not be implemented without a very elaborate form of mathematics.” Thus, “such a theory is possible to formulate, but when it is on hand one cannot know that it is a final theory,” given Gödel’s Theorem.



Some scientists suggest they are working to establish a unified physical theory that would make a Creator unnecessary because it would show that the universe necessarily is what it is and cannot be anything else. They believe science would thus rebut the theological argument that the universe is contingent and therefore needs a Creator. But, because Gödel’s Theorem shows there cannot be a mathematical system with a proof of built-in consistency, and because physics must be highly mathematical, no one can construct a physical theory that would be strictly final. In other words, Gödel’s Theorem renders the scientific search for a provable unified theory a fool’s errand. And, of course, the fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

I chuckle at the "fools errand" so many clamor to deliver. Where is the man that knows secret of creating life? Damn! forget the fools errand, how many have spent a lifetime on that errand with no Climax?




Jaki did a lot of quality mental whacking off
 
[video=youtube;j8ZF_R_j0OY]

i swear this is relevant

I just listened to that at work, laughing and trying to turn the screen away from prying eyes. HAHAHAHA, repped.

EDIT: NSFW, but worth it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top