B-Roy unhappy? (MERGED)

[PapaG]

Exactly. I REALLY doubt that McMillan does this against the Lakers. But I am refreshed to see him try something new. If anything this might teach Roy that it really is possible to push the pace ONCE in a while.

But I'd happily accept a season of Roy averaging 10ppg and us winning 60 games. And I'd like to think that Roy would too. As I said, nobody thought Rashard Lewis was a PF until Stan Van Gundy figured that was the best way to maximize what he had. And I don't think anyone involved with Orlando is complaining now.

Other examples:
Boris Diaw as a center (for the Suns)
Shawn Marion as a PF (ditto)
Juan Jose Barea as a SG
Josh Smith as a PF (drafted as a SF)
Jeff Green as a PF (ditto)
Russell Westbrook as a PG
Dwayne Wade was supposed to be a PG

...and so on.
Why such rigidity about assigned positions? Don't teams just end up playing their best five anyway? Isn't that how we play in pickup games too?

All are role players, outside of Wade, who wasn't drafted as a PG but as a SG and started his career as a SG. So ... are you saying that Andre Miller should be moved to a new position to help the team get over the hump? Unless I'm missing the All-Stars on your list who were asked to play out of position, of course.

 

[Ed O]

I'd sit Blake and insert Webster into the line-up, but that's just my suggestion. That way, you have your best player at the position he is his best at. Roy is going to get worn down covering SFs, and I don't see this system working against teams like Cleveland, Boston, the Lakers, Denver, or Orlando, to name a few.

I agree with this 100%. In addition to the "Roy out of position" issue, I just don't see what Blake brings that Webster does not.

Using Roy at the SF occasionally--to get Rudy or Bayless minutes--makes sense, but relying on him to guard small forwards every night is going to wear him down.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

Przybilla was the starter

Even more sad that Oden couldn't stay out of foul trouble, isn't it?

I'm not blaming any player, btw. If Blake is too blame, then so are the rest of them. That's my point.

 

[RoyToy]

Even more sad that Oden couldn't stay out of foul trouble, isn't it?

I'm not blaming any player, btw. If Blake is too blame, then so are the rest of them. That's my point.

My argument was he didn't play major minutes. Doesn't matter why

Blake was a good option when the team was rebuilding. Not so much anymore.

 

[PapaG]

I agree with this 100%. In addition to the "Roy out of position" issue, I just don't see what Blake brings that Webster does not.

Using Roy at the SF occasionally--to get Rudy or Bayless minutes--makes sense, but relying on him to guard small forwards every night is going to wear him down.

Ed O.

Exactly. If Miller is going to be the primary ball-handler, at least have Roy play next to him. Webster, if he gets into a flow, will be the spot-up shooter. Plus, I'd rather have Miller try to cover the opposing PG than Roy chase around SFs all game.

 

[Minstrel]

All are role players, outside of Wade, who wasn't drafted as a PG but as a SG and started his career as a SG. So ... are you saying that Andre Miller should be moved to a new position to help the team get over the hump? Unless I'm missing the All-Stars on your list who were asked to play out of position, of course.

Well, LeBron James seems like a more natural wing, but gets played at power forward a fair amount. While he's rugged enough to handle it, I wouldn't say power forward is his natural position.

As to whether Roy can handle small forward, I'm undecided. He wouldn't be terribly undersized and not many small forwards are post-up nightmares. But he will give up some weight to most of them, so I'm not sure.

 

[PapaG]

My argument was he didn't play major minutes. Doesn't matter why

Blake was a good option when the team was rebuilding. Not so much anymore.

I think Blake is great off of the bench for now. If Bayless develops as the season progresses, then he should get Blake's minutes. At this point, Bayless isn't there.

 

[magnifier661]

There are many scapegoats. Roy just seems to be have the most negativity toward him IMO. I never said "everybody" is against him. Please stop making things up about me, as I have not done likewise to you.

I absolutely don't agree that Roy is to blame for anything. In my opinion, he may be a little confused on what direction the team is going for, but I would never compare him to anyone like Statbo, Sheed or others that were given huge contracts and stopped caring about the team.

Personally, I think Roy cares deeply about this team. I think he cares enough to sacrifice his scoring and other intangibles that the "outside fans" enjoy watching, as long as his team is winning. What I feel he did in the first 5 games, was try and force the issue. Trying to justify his contract. But in all honesty, the reason why he got paid max wasn't on his scoring. It was his ability to do everything necessary for his team to win.

Could starting at 3 be one of them? I think so. If the Blazers go on to a 20 game win streak, I doubt you will hear Roy ever complain. He's a winner. He wants to win. I have no doubt that as long as we are winning, he will accept the role.

P.S. Sorry about generalizing you. I must of read it wrong.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Blake is a gamer . . . he has averaged more minutes the last two games than any other Blazer. Not saying he is the best Blazer player, but I think he has been under valued by Blazer fans ever since he has been here (x2).

I love a gym rat player . . . Blake isn't fancy, but he is the kind of player other like to play with because he isn't into stats but strictly about helping the team win.

As far as Quick's comments: maybe he doesn't know anything, but he has a lot more access to the Blazer players than we do and has probably had a lengthy conversation with Roy on multiple occasions. Who on this board feels they know more about Roy personally? If I read what psoters are thinking about Brondon's psyche, I definetly want to know someone's opinion about Roy's who has access to him. I hope Quick continues to give us his takes on the Blazer team and particular players.

 

[PapaG]

Well, LeBron James seems like a more natural wing, but gets played at power forward a fair amount. While he's rugged enough to handle it, I wouldn't say power forward is his natural position.

As to whether Roy can handle small forward, I'm undecided. He wouldn't be terribly undersized and not many small forwards are post-up nightmares. But he will give up some weight to most of them, so I'm not sure.

LeBron James isn't exactly a fair point of comparision. He plays PG down the stretch. Perhaps the Cavs should have brought in a guy like Andre Miller since it has been proven that having James as the primary ballhandler at the end of games doesn't lead to championships?

 

[PapaG]

I absolutely don't agree that Roy is to blame for anything. In my opinion, he may be a little confused on what direction the team is going for, but I would never compare him to anyone like Statbo, Sheed or others that were given huge contracts and stopped caring about the team.

Personally, I think Roy cares deeply about this team. I think he cares enough to sacrifice his scoring and other intangibles that the "outside fans" enjoy watching, as long as his team is winning. What I feel he did in the first 5 games, was try and force the issue. Trying to justify his contract. But in all honesty, the reason why he got paid max wasn't on his scoring. It was his ability to do everything necessary for his team to win.

Could starting at 3 be one of them? I think so. If the Blazers go on to a 20 game win streak, I doubt you will hear Roy ever complain. He's a winner. He wants to win. I have no doubt that as long as we are winning, he will accept the role.

P.S. Sorry about generalizing you. I must of read it wrong.

No worries. I have that effect on people. Some of us were having this discussion in the OT forum. How what comes out seems confrontational, when what is typed isn't meant to be so. I'm too direct at times, it seems.

 

[RoyToy]

I think Blake is great off of the bench for now. If Bayless develops as the season progresses, then he should get Blake's minutes. At this point, Bayless isn't there.

We agree to disagree

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: Jason Quick stirs the shit again

I know I've been in the minority on this, but I've felt all along that Roy is not a top-10 or max contract player because his unique skillset is too difficult to build around.

I'm really beginning to get to that point too. I remember a couple years ago, Jarrett Jack complained because he wasn't really sure of his role. Rudy's basically said the same thing a couple of times now. Bayless' role has never really been defined in his time here. And now that we get a real PG, Roy is uncertain of his role. I think that Roy's "unique skill set" is a primary cause of all this uncertainty.

At this point, I think Roy needs to just figure out what the hell he wants to be. If he wants to have the ball in his hands all the time, then fine--be the damn point guard and actually run the offense instead of playing with a pseudo-PG who walks the ball up the floor and hands it off to you the majority of the time. I'm sure there are plenty of players in this league--Bayless included--who would love to play beside him as a 2 on offense and a 1 on defense; we just need to make a fucking decision and stick with it.

If he doesn't want to be the point guard, then he needs to figure out how to co-exist with one. Rondo runs the offense in Boston. Williams does it in Cleveland. Fisher in LA. Billups in Denver. Chalmers in Miami. In all of those situations, the best player on the team is a 2 or a 3 who is very effective with the ball in their hands, but they let the damn point guard run the offense. Why can't Roy do the same? I'd like to think that he can if he chooses to--if not, then he's not the max player that we think he is.

 

[magnifier661]

No worries. I have that effect on people. Some of us were having this discussion in the OT forum. How what comes out seems confrontational, when what is typed isn't meant to be so. I'm too direct at times, it seems.

Cheers mate!

 

[Ed O]

Blake is a gamer . . . he has averaged more minutes the last two games than any other Blazer. Not saying he is the best Blazer player, but I think he has been under valued by Blazer fans ever since he has been here (x2).

I love a gym rat player . . . Blake isn't fancy, but he is the kind of player other like to play with because he isn't into stats but strictly about helping the team win.

Hmm... I'm not sure that I buy that. You think Oden enjoys playing with him, after more than a year's worth of missed entry passes?

Even if players "like playing with him", it doesn't mean he's a good player. Blake only does one thing well at the NBA level: shoot three pointers. He doesn't create his own shot and he doesn't create for other players. He is not a particularly good defender and he doesn't create turnovers.

As a bench player behind Miller I think he becomes an asset for a contending-level team. As a starter he's an albatross.

Ed O.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Evdently Quick peaked through the blinds and saw Roy crying when he learned Marc Iavaroni is going to be our next coach. Can't say I blame the guy, that would make me sad, too.

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

LeBron James isn't exactly a fair point of comparision. He plays PG down the stretch. Perhaps the Cavs should have brought in a guy like Andre Miller since it has been proven that having James as the primary ballhandler at the end of games doesn't lead to championships?

The Cavs have tried to bring in play-makers to allow James not to have be the primary and only play-maker for the team throughout the game. And James has, over the years, played off the ball more and more.

Obviously, he gets the ball a lot and so does, and should, Roy. Roy seemed to get the ball quite a bit over the past two games. Against San Antonio, he scored a lot. Against Minnesota, his scoring wasn't needed so he passed and rebounded more. It seems like too small a sample size to determine whether Roy is being used optimally or not. Blow-out wins aren't good representations of how the team will typically play.

 

[B-Roy]

None of them launched a 30 foot running jumper with 13 seconds left in the game when we only needed a 2 though.......there is not getting it done, and then there is not giving yourself even the chance to get it done.

I like that people remember one specific play rather than the multiple ones that led to that specific play.

 

[andalusian]

he doesn't create for other players.

Blake's career AST% of 25,9% seems to negate this. He is a PG - just not a fancy one, nor an elite one - but he is a role player that plays like a role player.

This year, playing as a 2nd (or 3rd) PG on the team - he assists at 20% while his usage percent is a low 13.6.

For all of you that think that Rudy is better at creating for others - Rudy's Ast% is 16% this year with a much higher usage% of 18 - and Rudy's TOV% is higher than Blake's as well.

The idea that Blake does not create for others is a myth. It is not fancy, it is not world-beating - but it is not trivial.

 

[RR7]

I think the biggest reason to start Miller and Blake alongside eachother is to have essentially a transition period. Ease Roy and Miller into playing off of eachother. Really, they should have been thrown together in the preaseason the entire time. But whatever. That's past. What would happen if Nate started Miller alongside Roy, with Webster in there, and they were just terrible together? And we lost 3 or 4 in a row, and there was no chemistry from the starting unit? Does he make another change? How many fickle fans would flip the fuck out about a 3rd change then? Or flip out about the lack of chemistry, etc. His easing the transition, at least for these last two games, has seemed to work out alright for us.

As for stars playing out of position, I would argue that Amare is a natural PF, but has been asked to play C for Phoenix, because of their style of play. Should he have pouted about being an undersized C? Rashard Lewis was mentioned as well. Shawn Marion is a 4 time all star. I don't consider any of them on Roy's level but, again, I don't see this switch lasting all that long, so I'm not going to fret about it.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Jason Quick stirs the shit again

If he wants to have the ball in his hands all the time, then fine--be the damn point guard and actually run the offense instead of playing with a pseudo-PG who walks the ball up the floor and hands it off to you the majority of the time.

Well, let's list the other elite SGs/SFs who are similar to Roy in usage rate.

Bryant - Fisher basically plays this role.
Wade - Chalmers basically plays this role.
James - Mo Williams basically plays this role.

All 3 of these players are in the Top 5 right now in usage rate. Roy is 19th, for whatever that's worth.


It seems to me that the biggest problem is that Blake, who was in the Fisher/Chalmers/Williams role, can't defend as well as the others on the list.

 

[PapaG]

Diving deeper, Wade, James, and Bryant were 1-2-3 last year in usage rate. Roy ended up 14th.

I have to assume that any poster calling Roy, or Roy's game, selfish doesn't know what they are talking about.

Usage Pct

1. Dwyane Wade-MIA 36.2
2. LeBron James-CLE 33.8
3. Kobe Bryant-LAL 32.2
4. Tony Parker-SAS 31.7
5. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 31.5
6. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 30.3
7. Danny Granger-IND 29.6
8. Charlie Villanueva-MIL 28.5
9. Tim Duncan-SAS 28.5
10. Devin Harris-NJN 28.4
11. Kevin Durant-OKC 28.3
12. Michael Beasley-MIA 27.7
13. Chris Paul-NOH 27.5
14. Brandon Roy-POR 27.4
15. Richard Hamilton-DET 27.0
16. Chris Bosh-TOR 26.9
17. Vince Carter-NJN 26.8
18. Joe Johnson-ATL 26.6
19. David West-NOH 26.5
20. Yao Ming-HOU 26.2

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2009_leaders.html

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

According to Canzano, a frustrated Brandon Roy met with KP last week to discuss his role.

Awesome.

 

[RR7]

 

[PapaG]

According to Canzano, a frustrated Brandon Roy met with KP last week to discuss his role.

Awesome.

KP panicked and bought Miller's sales job in Vegas. I posted at the time that I'd rather have the cap space for the trade deadline. That said, the team has to make it work. There is no other option at this point. Miller has attributes that can help this team, but he needs to adjust his game as well and start creating shots for the scorers on the team.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

All are role players, outside of Wade, who wasn't drafted as a PG but as a SG and started his career as a SG. ... Unless I'm missing the All-Stars on your list who were asked to play out of position, of course.

You are, of course.

 

[PapaG]

You are, of course.

I stand corrected. I don't see Lewis as an All-NBA type player, however, nor has he been on an All-NBA team. He's a role player IMO. Plus, Orlando hasn't won a title with the 6'10 Lewis playing "out of position". Plus, he hasn't been an All-Star playing out of position.

 

[Minstrel]

According to Canzano, a frustrated Brandon Roy met with KP last week to discuss his role.

Awesome.

Last week? So likely before the three-guard lineup? Well then...worries aired and hopefully resolved. Things seemed to go pretty well the last two games, and Roy seemed cheerful enough laughing on the bench.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

According to Canzano, a frustrated Brandon Roy met with KP last week to discuss his role.

So Canzano and Quick are in agreement? Well that settles it.

 

[RR7]

How's Miller supposed to create shots for others when you seemingly don't want the ball in his hands to create those shots. He was brought in to help the team. Not to do 1 thing and 1 thing only. He can help us by creating shots for others. He can also help us by getting easy baskets when they may be needed. And by getting to the free throw line. All of those things help a basketball team, and they are, and will, help our team.
I don't see panick at all on KPs part. My belief is he was planning to attempt to sign and trade for Miller, while signing another player as well, but those signing options fell through, so he went with a simple signing of Miller straight up.