Batun's extension and minutes - very interesting

[Draco]

There's a point in there, but part of his minuscule production offensively in that series is that Nate never schemed to take advantage of that mismatch.

Ahh so its Nate’s fault Batum only averaged 8ppg with Steve Nash guarding him. Nate didn’t want him to score? Good to know.

Is Nate at fault for Batum currently shooting 37% two pointers? As a forward? Don’t get me wrong, Batum has value as a role playing spot up shooter, he is shooting a great 37% from downtown. But when he tries to create offensively he struggles to score against other teams second units. He has never created offense efficiently in the NBA, he plays off his teammates. Why should we expect he has any ability to create offensively when he’s never done it well in his career?

 

[SantaDora]

So, we have a player that is super long for his position, very fast, works hard on both offense and defense, very skilled, team player, not a head case, he shows flashes of brilliance but can not be counted on to be a super star. Right?

Isn't that what we said about LaMarcus Aldridge 2 years ago? But we at least seen what Aldridge can do as a #2 option on offense to know that he is good. Nicolas has never been anything other than a #3 option on offense in the NBA (during the season of "everyone dies" 2009-2010 - at the end of the year, when he was #3 after #1 Andre/Aldridge - he had an ungodly 0.65 TS% and 127 ORTG during this time on a miniscule 16.5 USG%. The Playoffs against PHX means nothing - he was playing hurt with shoulder injury, I can't believe he could actually play during this time at all. Reminder, D-Wade basically took a year off to recover from shoulder injury...

This kid has all the tools in the world to be a super-player. He just needs someone to give him a chance in the NBA to be that - to see if he can take it there or not. In the Euroleague (which is much harder and more skilled than College Basketball) he proved he can be an alpha-dog. Portland will be mistaken to not, at least, try him in this position for a while to figure out if he can be the #2 option on the team. Heck. Make him #1 option off the bench instead of Jamal.

I will repeat it. We have never seen Nicolas featured on offense in the NBA. Until we see it - anyone that claims he can not be - does not remember the recent past we had with Aldridge.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Ahh so its Nate’s fault Batum only averaged 8ppg with Steve Nash guarding him. Nate didn’t want him to score? Good to know.

Is Nate at fault for Batum currently shooting 37% two pointers? As a forward? Don’t get me wrong, Batum has value as a role playing spot up shooter, he is shooting a great 37% from downtown. But when he tries to create offensively he struggles to score against other teams second units. He has never created offense efficiently in the NBA, he plays off his teammates. Why should we expect he has any ability to create offensively when he’s never done it well in his career?

I swear to god is everybody around here so obdurate that they can't read? I said part -- As in, a portion of his problem in that series was nothing being run through him. I freely concede that you have a point that part of Nic's problem lies within himself and his tendency to be passive.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

Think about it this way, Batum has bounced in and out of the starting lineup for years and still Nate is not sure he can produce nightly. Crash hasn't been here a whole year and he owns the 3 spot...

I don't want to hear Batum's young and a devolping player, heard that with Webster and Outlaw. How did that turn out? Kobe, Tmac, Lebron all young instantly made impacts in the league....why? Killer instinct!

Crash has been an allstar already and he doesn't need to develop a role he brought one with him to Ptown. He's got 3 good years still in him and I don't think Nick has shown he'll ever be a solid #2 option.

You go with proven or insane talent with killer instinct. In this case Crash is a no brainer...

 

[Draco]

I swear to god is everybody around here so obdurate that they can't read? I said part -- As in, a portion of his problem in that series was nothing being run through him. I freely concede that you have a point that part of Nic's problem lies within himself and his tendency to be passive.

Never said I could read well haha

Guess I just don't agree that any of it is Nates fault. If anything I think Nate has given him a larger role then most coaches. How many coaches start him as a rookie? I put Batum's struggles entirely on Batum.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Think about it this way, Batum has bounced in and out of the starting lineup for years and still Nate is not sure he can produce nightly. Crash hasn't been here a whole year and he owns the 3 spot...

I don't want to hear Batum's young and a devolping player, heard that with Webster and Outlaw. How did that turn out? Kobe, Tmac, Lebron all young instantly made impacts in the league....why? Killer instinct!

Crash has been an allstar already and he doesn't need to develop a role he brought one with him to Ptown. He's got 3 good years still in him and I don't think Nick has shown he'll ever be a solid #2 option.

You go with proven or insane talent with killer instinct. In this case Crash is a no brainer...

No brainer? Last year at the trade deadline, Bobcats were having trouble giving Wallace away. Heck Blazers refused to include Batum in deal with Bobcats, which initially made them decline the trade, then though better of it and gave the Blazers Wallace for nothing. Now it's a no brainer to trade Nic away and offer Wallace a long term big money contract?

Also you aren't really comparing Nic to Kobe, Lebron and Tmac are you? I doubt anyone is going to be offering Nic a max contract for max years. We aren't talking superstar, we are wondering if Nic will continue to develop and pay him for that untapped potential.

I get you think Nic can no longer inprove at the ripe age of 23, but it is anything but a no brainer.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Yeah, I think I side with Ghost Pepper on this one. If you want an opportunity to prove yourself in the NBA, you don't wait for it to be handed to you, you go out and take it. Batum hasn't.

 

[Ghost Pepper]

No I'm saying Nic's age to that of Kobe, Tmac and Lebron coming into the league and the difference in their skill set and most importantly ATTITUDE. Now you counter balance that with what Crash brings already at the ripe age of "29" and that's where the no brainer comes in...... Do you really think that an offense anywhere in the NBA will have Batum as a second option and where? He can't even back his man down to the hoop, let alone get his own shot unless he's wide open, he can barely fight through the screens... If Batum wants to be a star he better start working out and finding what he does better than anyone else and let the league KNOW IT!! Otherwise he's not a player you'd trade a Crash for. Not even close.

 

[SantaDora]

Yeah, I think I side with Ghost Pepper on this one. If you want an opportunity to prove yourself in the NBA, you don't wait for it to be handed to you, you go out and take it. Batum hasn't.

So - on the record, you were on the "trade Aldridge" bandwagon before he blew up in the middle of last season?

 

[Masbee]

As much as i like Batum, ive come to realize he will never be a star. Really good role player on a good team. I think the blazers have realized this and are considering who to extend... him or wallace. Dont think we can keep em both. I just dont think Batum will ever be a big time consistent player you can count on. Wallace is our 2nd best player by far now. Wes is 3rd and thats fine. However you cant have Wes be the 2nd best player or you start having issues. Batum to me is a starter on some teams but i think he might be more a bench type that does little things that get you wins. If you are counting on 18 points a night from him every night as a starter.... good luck. i really think they should try and deal/package him for a stud PG or center.

Wallace wasn't anything special until his 5th season. He was 23.

Batum is in his 4th season. He is 23.

So: do you give up Gerald Wallace during his 4th season because he will never be that good?

Oops.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So - on the record, you were on the "trade Aldridge" bandwagon before he blew up in the middle of last season?

No, I never advocated for trading Aldridge, and the situations are completely different. We didn't have another player at Aldridge's position who was clearly better than he was. Aldridge had clearly demonstrated that he was in the top 10% of the league at his position. The same is not true of Batum.

 

[SantaDora]

No, I never advocated for trading Aldridge, and the situations are completely different. We didn't have another player at Aldridge's position who was clearly better than he was. Aldridge had clearly demonstrated that he was in the top 10% of the league at his position. The same is not true of Batum.

Top 10%? For the 2009-2010 season Hollinger's player stats lists 70 power forwards and Aldridge is #14 by PER (that's top 20%, not clearly top 10%). He was also 25 years old at the time.

This year, The same stat lists 60 small forwards but given the way the list works (you need a certain number of minutes to be included) and how early it is in the year, let's assume that the same number will be in the list at year's end. Nicolas, right now, is #18 - and he is 2 years younger than Aldridge was at the time and featured a lot less on offense.

I honestly do not see the clear difference. Wallace is fantastic and we are lucky to have him, he should start, but giving Nic 20 minutes a game and having him option #6 on offense is criminal, imho. Declaring that Nic will never be a capable #1 or #2 in this league is again baseless without having actually seen him in this position once in his NBA career.

Again, he has the tools, we have seen that in the Euroleague he can produce like that, he was often the man or a very capable #2 on the French team behind Tony Parker. It is too early, and too foolish to dismiss him at this point given that he was never featured on offense in this league.

 

[Brock]

oh boy... how long till nic requests a trade? you can see this coming a mile away. now eggers is in on it.

 

[Draco]

oh boy... how long till nic requests a trade? you can see this coming a mile away. now eggers is in on it.

I will lose a lot of respect for Nic if that happens, I don't think he's a big baby like Rudy. Nic can sign in Europe this summer if he doesn't want to return to the Blazers, he doesn't need to act like DeMarcus Cousins.

 

[Rhal]

oh boy... how long till nic requests a trade? you can see this coming a mile away. now eggers is in on it.

Batum doesnt seem llike the kind of guy who would do that. Guess we will see.
This whole situation just seems like normal oregon "lets stir shit up" reporters I dont buy any of it.
Im down for giving 35m for 5 years

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Batum doesnt seem llike the kind of guy who would do that. Guess we will see.
This whole situation just seems like normal oregon "lets stir shit up" reporters I dont buy any of it.
Im down for giving 35m for 5 years

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

Hated the interview with Dwight who basically made it more of an issue than it should have been.

"Nic, you aren't getting a lot of playing time and your role is possibly diminishing. One could aruge that you should be getting more playing time. Are you concerned about your playing time with the Blazers and is playing time a consideration when deciding to sign with a team?"

I know those wern't the exact words, but listen to the interview and I swear Dwight is there just to stir things up for a good story.

 

[Draco]

Batum doesnt seem llike the kind of guy who would do that. Guess we will see.
This whole situation just seems like normal oregon "lets stir shit up" reporters I dont buy any of it.
Im down for giving 35m for 5 years

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk

I don't believe we can give him more then a 4 year extension. We can resign him for 5 years in the offseason though.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Top 10%? For the 2009-2010 season Hollinger's player stats lists 70 power forwards and Aldridge is #14 by PER (that's top 20%, not clearly top 10%). He was also 25 years old at the time.

This year, The same stat lists 60 small forwards but given the way the list works (you need a certain number of minutes to be included) and how early it is in the year, let's assume that the same number will be in the list at year's end. Nicolas, right now, is #18 - and he is 2 years younger than Aldridge was at the time and featured a lot less on offense.

I honestly do not see the clear difference. Wallace is fantastic and we are lucky to have him, he should start, but giving Nic 20 minutes a game and having him option #6 on offense is criminal, imho. Declaring that Nic will never be a capable #1 or #2 in this league is again baseless without having actually seen him in this position once in his NBA career.

Again, he has the tools, we have seen that in the Euroleague he can produce like that, he was often the man or a very capable #2 on the French team behind Tony Parker. It is too early, and too foolish to dismiss him at this point given that he was never featured on offense in this league.

In VA/EWA, Aldridge was top 10. I put more stock in those than PER. Gotta say though--I'm surprised to see Nic ranking so highly in the advanced stats (top 20 in VA/EWA, as well as PER). No argument from me that he should get more minutes. But I think he'll probably need to go to another team to get them. I don't think he should be "dismissed" per se, but I do think we should get good value for him while his production for this team is so much less than his value to another.

 

[SantaDora]

In VA/EWA, Aldridge was top 10. I put more stock in those than PER. Gotta say though--I'm surprised to see Nic ranking so highly in the advanced stats (top 20 in VA/EWA, as well as PER). No argument from me that he should get more minutes. But I think he'll probably need to go to another team to get them. I don't think he should be "dismissed" per se, but I do think we should get good value for him while his production for this team is so much less than his value to another.

The big problem with this argument is that VA/EWA is minutes and role dependent - which comes back to my argument - anyone that says that Nico will never take the next step in the NBA because he has not so far is talking out of their rear-end. He might, he might not - but there are a lot of indicators that the kid has lots of talent and can actually produce when given a more prominent role.

Given that rather depressing turn of events (lack of minutes, responsibility) - a more interesting stat for me to look at is WS/48 - and see that whenever Nico was actually (by necessity) given a prominent role (2009-2010 before he re-injured his shoulder in the playoffs) - his WS/48 was 0.181 - a mark that Aldridge has only managed to overtake once - this year.

The Kid is clearly a major talent, has all the tools to be a fantastic basketball player and can actually produce when given a chance - either in the Euroleague, or in the NBA. He deserves the chance to be featured in the NBA - or at least, to be tested for this role. I just hope that the Blazers have the wit to recognize it and actually test him here before giving up on him.

 

[magnifier661]

With all this talk about YMCA and fml I have to change my opinion to "we need a better gimmick than the chalupa!". It's relevant dammit!

 

[LameR]

The big problem with this argument is that VA/EWA is minutes and role dependent - which comes back to my argument - anyone that says that Nico will never take the next step in the NBA because he has not so far is talking out of their rear-end. He might, he might not - but there are a lot of indicators that the kid has lots of talent and can actually produce when given a more prominent role.

I think if you're willing to make a statement like this, especially the bolded part, you gotta at least be willing to consider that he may NOT develop into the player you think he can develop into. You said yourself, he may, he may not. You've made some really good points in this thread, but I think that there's also a lot of arguing in circles going on as well.

"Nic doesn't get minutes, give him minutes."
"When we give him minutes he doesn't produce at a level warranting more than other guys."
"That's because he isn't inserted as a number one or two option."
"He hasn't proven he can be a number one or two option."
"He hasn't been given the chance."
"He hasn't made the most of what's been given to him, others have and have expanded their roles."
"He'd produce if he had the expanded role."

It's all really meaningless. It's like the chicken and the egg only instead of a chicken, it's Nic's production, and instead of an egg, it's his role on the team. We can argue all day, but the bottom line is there is a possibility he'll get better and deserves a better role to step into, but there's also a possibility that the coaches who are at every single practice and have been working with him for thousands of hours while we just watch him in games might know more than the average message board poster.

 

[SantaDora]

It's all really meaningless. It's like the chicken and the egg only instead of a chicken, it's Nic's production, and instead of an egg, it's his role on the team. We can argue all day, but the bottom line is there is a possibility he'll get better and deserves a better role to step into, but there's also a possibility that the coaches who are at every single practice and have been working with him for thousands of hours while we just watch him in games might know more than the average message board poster.

Of course. It is also possible that the same coaches must show results now instead of look at the future. Or that being a French kid (and he is still a kid at 23) - he is not your typical basketball player alpha male. I am just saying that announcing him dead on arrival is exactly the same kind of mistake that was done with Aldridge until get got a shot to be the #1 option. Any team needs to look at winning now and balancing for the future to be successful long term. I am just not buying the "Nic" will never get it, he is not worth investing in mentality exhibited here.

My opinion is that the Blazers #1 priority in the near future, given what we have seen so far - is to decide if locking Nic up long-term as part of the foundation along with Aldridge and Wes is very important or somewhat important. A good way to figure it out is to actually give him the minutes and the role. Maybe they already made up their mind. Maybe they talked about trading him. Who knows - but my opinion is that he is worth a closer look in a more prominent role.

 

[magnifier661]

Um mods would you mind changing the title batun changed to Batum?

 

[LameR]

Of course. It is also possible that the same coaches must show results now instead of look at the future. Or that being a French kid (and he is still a kid at 23) - he is not your typical basketball player alpha male. I am just saying that announcing him dead on arrival is exactly the same kind of mistake that was done with Aldridge until get got a shot to be the #1 option. Any team needs to look at winning now and balancing for the future to be successful long term. I am just not buying the "Nic" will never get it, he is not worth investing in mentality exhibited here.

My opinion is that the Blazers #1 priority in the near future, given what we have seen so far - is to decide if locking Nic up long-term as part of the foundation along with Aldridge and Wes is very important or somewhat important. A good way to figure it out is to actually give him the minutes and the role. Maybe they already made up their mind. Maybe they talked about trading him. Who knows - but my opinion is that he is worth a closer look in a more prominent role.

It's a pretty different situation than Aldridge. Everyone knew Aldridge had ability and 17/7 is nothing to laugh at. David West made the all-star game with basically those numbers. Aldridge-Roy was a great combo. Batum, we still don't have a good idea of what he can do because he hasn't stepped up in the way a lot of people had hoped. You can blame coaching, teammates, or Batum, but ultimately it hasn't happened thus far.

 

[magnifier661]

Well Batum added a great performance last night. Maybe this forces Nate to give him more burn?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Well Batum added a great performance last night. Maybe this forces Nate to give him more burn?

Nothing forces Nate to do anything. Nate is impervious to outside influence. Nate gives burn only to those he deems worthy.

 

[magnifier661]

Nothing forces Nate to do anything. Nate is impervious to outside influence. Nate gives burn only to those he deems worthy.

Well since Batum was a +17 on the floor; you would think that proves "worthiness"? I know it's one game, but has Batum every had a "-" in a game?

 

[Blazinaway]

Well since Batum was a +17 on the floor; you would think that proves "worthiness"? I know it's one game, but has Batum every had a "-" in a game?

Batum's ready IMO, I like him starting with Camby coming off the bench. it also gives us the chance to really give him the opportunity to keep improving which I think is very important for this franchise.

 

[B-Roy]

Batum's ready IMO, I like him starting with Camby coming off the bench. it also gives us the chance to really give him the opportunity to keep improving which I think is very important for this franchise.

Not sure I like that. Nic will be fighting for shots against LA, Wallace and Matthews. One of the good things about Camby is he doesn't need shots to be effective. Aldridge also plays well with Marcus in the lineup.

 

[magnifier661]

Not sure I like that. Nic will be fighting for shots against LA, Wallace and Matthews. One of the good things about Camby is he doesn't need shots to be effective. Aldridge also plays well with Marcus in the lineup.

Aren't they holding some sort of lead in lobs or something?