Trade Ben Simmons poll

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What's the most you would give up for Ben Simmons?

  • Total voters
    145
blazerkor said:
I think now that Dame is back, his agent has to be telling people what Neil has been saying all summer, that he's staying here. That will pretty much force the Sixers to make a Simmons move. I still think that of the guys that are available (because Beal seems cool in DC) that CJ is the best fit for their needs. If they take a package with CJ as the best player or not, I think they'll trade him before he sits out one day of training camp because as soon as he does, they lose even more leverage.
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I'm thinking Simmons ends up in Sac Town or Minn. If Morey doesn't get what he wants from Portland I think he will trade elsewhere know Simmons will immediately make Portland a viable contender in the West.
 
Hoopguru said:
I'm thinking Simmons ends up in Sac Town or Minn. If Morey doesn't get what he wants from Portland I think he will trade elsewhere know Simmons will immediately make Portland a viable contender in the West.
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Philly needs a piece or pieces that put them over the top. I don't think that Hield and Bagley do that in a way that CJ does. I don't think Russell is really what Minny wants to give up and I don't think anything else would make sense to the Sixers and he would still make less sense than CJ.

I don't think the Sixers have to worry about how good the trade makes us. We aren't in the East and it doesn't make us better than they would be with CJ. They would be a lot better with CJ than they were this last season and they were already really close. After the move we would likely be what they were last season, on the cusp but not quite there yet "contending". I mean, I considered them a marginal contender last season despite their lack of elite perimeter scoring.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
https://ca.nba.com/news/what-would-...adelphia-76ers-star/jyv4d4ho1qrm1p9imtr2rqgev
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Interesting that he is most effective at postup and isolation but rarely does those. Not very effective as a pick and roll handler. Even at transition he is not very efficient if I am reading this right. ( A high turnover rate (21.2 percent) played a role in him ranking in only the 27th percentile with an average of 1.00 points per transition possession.)

Ben Simmons' scoring tendencies (2020-21)
Play Frequency Points Per Possession Percentile
Transition 28.3% 1.00 27.0
Pick-and-roll ball handler 16.9% 0.73 23.6
Cut 12.2% 1.10 20.3
Post-up 11.4% 0.96 55.0
Isolation 6.2% 1.00 75.3
Pick-and-roll roll man 2.6% 0.87 14.7
 
blazerkor said:
I think now that Dame is back, his agent has to be telling people what Neil has been saying all summer, that he's staying here. That will pretty much force the Sixers to make a Simmons move.
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ahhhh no. If the Sixers decide they have to move Ben, they've many other options besides dealing with Portland. Also, many many times players & teams have said one thing publicly while saying & doing the exact opposite behind closed doors. Good grief, we can speculate, listen to podcasts, read tweets etc, but we're on the outside of actual conversations between those who matter.

STOMP
 
STOMP said:
ahhhh no. If the Sixers decide they have to move Ben, they've many other options besides dealing with Portland. Also, many many times players & teams have said one thing publicly while saying & doing the exact opposite behind closed doors. Good grief, we can speculate, listen to podcasts, read tweets etc, but we're on the outside of actual conversations between those who matter.

STOMP
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I don't think it forces them to trade Simmons to us. They could trade him anywhere but I agree with Zach Lowe when he says that CJ is the best fit for them. So yeah, Simmons for CJ+ is pure speculation. The idea that Simmons needs to be traded isn't just speculation though. That situation is a shit storm for Philly and if they think that Ben's value tanked after Doc and Embiid threw him under the bus, just wait and see what happens when he starts sitting out training camp.
 
In what I quoted prior you stated that a player's agent saying something publicly forces another team to do something with one of it's players. Maybe you misspoke, but that nonsense is what I was reacting to.

For what it's worth, I'd be over the hill happy if Phili did the trade you're suggesting but won't be holding my breath. I didn't vote in the poll as I didn't think CJ + RoCo is enough when it was posted or today.

STOMP
 
That article quoted David Aldridge reporting that Morey is looking for an All-Star level player and four first-round draft picks. I certainly don't think Morey's going to find that deal, but that's not the stance of someone who feels desperate to trade a guy. Yes, I know, "Negotiations 101, set the opening bid high"...however, nothing suggests he's coming down from it. While the fit is suspect, Morey knows he has two superstar talents and the best way to fade into irrelevance is to trade one of them for pennies on the dollar. I think Morey is going to stick with his massive expectations on a Simmons trade return and, if he doesn't get it, he'll keep Simmons. Simmons may be unhappy, but he's under contract for four more years--he'll get over it because he has to and Morey will continue trying to figure out how to make it work, while continuing to listen to offers. It's the only sane option--trading Simmons for peanuts just to trade him is not sane.
 
I do wonder how significant the "Ben not being traded before training camp creates a circus atmosphere" narrative really is.... more to the point, how much Morey actually cares about that. I've always had the impression that he is more concerned about making moves that show him to be the smartest guy in the room than he is about the impact those moves (or lack thereof) might have on the team dynamic.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I do wonder how significant the "Ben not being traded before training camp creates a circus atmosphere" narrative really is.... more to the point, how much Morey actually cares about that. I've always had the impression that he is more concerned about making moves that show him to be the smartest guy in the room than he is about the impact those moves (or lack thereof) might have on the team dynamic.
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I just think that the Sixers let Doc and Embiid hurt Simmons' trade value but having him sit training camp and then possibly games would tank it even further. They would be smart to get what they can for him now if it's something that makes them as good or better with draft assets in addition. If Morey isn't getting those offers right now then yeah I guess they could have to let the circus come to town. If Morey is getting that but he wants the return he should get on a potential superstar that's already made an all nba team and at 25... then he's being a dumbass. He should take a player or players that fit that team's needs and picks.
 
blazerkor said:
I just think that the Sixers let Doc and Embiid hurt Simmons' trade value but having him sit training camp and then possibly games would tank it even further. They would be smart to get what they can for him now if it's something that makes them as good or better with draft assets in addition. If Morey isn't getting those offers right now then yeah I guess they could have to let the circus come to town. If Morey is getting that but he wants the return he should get on a potential superstar that's already made an all nba team and at 25... then he's being a dumbass. He should take a player or players that fit that team's needs and picks.
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If teams are holding back their best offers because they're banking on Morey needing to deal Ben before camp, it makes sense for Morey to continue holding. Basically tell the low-ballers, "If you think a disgruntled star will hold me hostage and force me to accept below-market-value for his talent, you're dead wrong, man."
 
PtldPlatypus said:
If teams are holding back their best offers because they're banking on Morey needing to deal Ben before camp, it makes sense for Morey to continue holding. Basically tell the low-ballers, "If you think a disgruntled star will hold me hostage and force me to accept below-market-value for his talent, you're dead wrong, man."
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But he doesn’t want fair market value. He wants way better than fair market. I actually think he would have already gotten fair market if he wanted it. The rumors are basically that he’s trying to fleece teams.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
If teams are holding back their best offers because they're banking on Morey needing to deal Ben before camp, it makes sense for Morey to continue holding. Basically tell the low-ballers, "If you think a disgruntled star will hold me hostage and force me to accept below-market-value for his talent, you're dead wrong, man."
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I bet the other teams are not lowballing him. Sure they might be holding one minor piece back as you would do with any negotiations, but I think the main pieces have been offered. Morey is trying to impress his new employer, but so far he is not impressing anyone.
 
Btw, isn’t Elton Brand the actual GM of the Sixers still?
 
KSF-ERIC said:
Btw, isn’t Elton Brand the actual GM of the Sixers still?
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Technically, yes. I guess Morey is the President of Basketball Ops. Still, I think Morey would have to sign off on any deal.
 
Natebishop3 said:
But he doesn’t want fair market value. He wants way better than fair market. I actually think he would have already gotten fair market if he wanted it. The rumors are basically that he’s trying to fleece teams.
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The question is, what is fair market value for Simmons? I think that's a pretty complicated question--Simmons basically does everything possible at a star level--except shoot. The first part of that assertion is pretty incredible and speaks to one of the singular talents in the game; the second part of that assertion has so far proven to be a fatal flaw, as shooting these days tends to be the skill that ties everything else together. If A. Simmons can shoot at even a passable level in future or B. a team figures out how to maximize all his myriad talents while minimizing his one flaw, Simmons will be one of the several most valuable players in the game. If neither of those happens, he'll continue to be an individually brilliant basketball player who's worth significantly less than the sum of his parts in five-on-five basketball.

That makes his value a bit of a function of the eye of the beholder. I would say reasonable minds could disagree on Simmons' trade value.
 
Minstrel said:
That makes his value a bit of a function of the eye of the beholder. I would say reasonable minds could disagree on Simmons' trade value.
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NO!! Anyone who disagrees with MY valuation of him is wrong.

Don't you know how the internet works?

Oh wait, you said "reasonable". That doesn't apply to internet discussion. Carry on.
 
Minstrel said:
Simmons basically does everything possible at a star level--except shoot.
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He DID do that. Do we know if he's still even that guy? He looked completely broken in the Hawks series. So whoever takes him is taking a gamble.
 
Natebishop3 said:
He DID do that. Do we know if he's still even that guy? He looked completely broken in the Hawks series. So whoever takes him is taking a gamble.
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He looked like a guy stuck way too deep in his head in the heat of a tight series, to me. I don't think it's at all likely that he's "broken" in some permanent or semi-permanent sense.
 
Minstrel said:
The question is, what is fair market value for Simmons? I think that's a pretty complicated question--Simmons basically does everything possible at a star level--except shoot. The first part of that assertion is pretty incredible and speaks to one of the singular talents in the game; the second part of that assertion has so far proven to be a fatal flaw, as shooting these days tends to be the skill that ties everything else together. If A. Simmons can shoot at even a passable level in future or B. a team figures out how to maximize all his myriad talents while minimizing his one flaw, Simmons will be one of the several most valuable players in the game. If neither of those happens, he'll continue to be an individually brilliant basketball player who's worth significantly less than the sum of his parts in five-on-five basketball.

That makes his value a bit of a function of the eye of the beholder. I would say reasonable minds could disagree on Simmons' trade value.
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overall I think you've threaded the needle on the Simmons conundrum.

I'd quibble about saying "he can do everything except shoot". You need to tack on 'from the perimeter' to that sentence. Simmons is a good shooter, within his range. Or, at least, he's a good scorer within his range

he has a career TS% of .579 and that mark has been over .590 the last two seasons. That's good shooting considering that the NBA average has fallen in the .550-.560 range the last few seasons. Compare Simmons to CJ, the guy we have been talking about trading for Simmons. CJ is a good shooter, obviously, but his career TS% is only .553, considerably lower than Simmons. CJ averages 1.187 points/shot while Simmons averages 1.375 points/shot. CJ is not as good a scorer as he is a shooter because he doesn't get to the FT line. Simmons is a better scorer than he is a shooter because he does get to the FT line....a lot, even though he's not a good FT shooter

Simmons is one of those uber-talents who needs a specialized roster to maximize his talents. The Philly problem for Simmons is that their franchise player is a big man. And big men need space in the paint to operate. Simmons does not create that space because of his big flaw. Embiid and Simmons are oil and water

so then, does Portland have the type of roster that could maximize Simmons and unlock his potential. Dame sure as hell is a different franchise player than Embiid so there's a great start. Powell at SG would add on to that and so would RoCo at SF. The issue would be Simmons and Nurkic. That might create many of the same issues that Simmons/Embiid have. But nothing says Nurkic has to remain a Blazer for the next 7 years, or even next full year

and obviously, there's another big issue. The door for Dame leaving Portland has always been shut, latched, and triple locked. But that door is wide open now because of Olshey's incompetence. It won't close again. Dame is still inside, but he's looking out of that door and has definitely taken a couple of steps toward it. Which means that the Blazers should absolutely be cautious about trading any unprotected picks or swaps past 2024, and maybe 2023
 
wizenheimer said:
and obviously, there's another big issue. The door for Dame leaving Portland has always been shut, latched, and triple locked. But that door is wide open now because of Olshey's incompetence. It won't close again. Dame is still inside, but he's looking out of that door and has definitely taken a couple of steps toward it. Which means that the Blazers should absolutely be cautious about trading any unprotected picks or swaps past 2024, and maybe 2023
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If those picks or swaps bring Dame the swing-for-the-fences star he wants, that shouldn't be a concern.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
If those picks or swaps bring Dame the swing-for-the-fences star he wants, that shouldn't be a concern.
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that could be true....and notice I said that Portland should be cautious about trading unprotected picks past 2023, not refuse to do so
 
wizenheimer said:
that could be true....and notice I said that Portland should be cautious about trading unprotected picks past 2023, not refuse to do so
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I think you’ve hit on exactly whats holding up the trade.
 
wizenheimer said:
overall I think you've threaded the needle on the Simmons conundrum.

I'd quibble about saying "he can do everything except shoot". You need to tack on 'from the perimeter' to that sentence. Simmons is a good shooter, within his range. Or, at least, he's a good scorer within his range

he has a career TS% of .579 and that mark has been over .590 the last two seasons. That's good shooting considering that the NBA average has fallen in the .550-.560 range the last few seasons.
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When I say "shooting," I mean shots that aren't lay-ups or dunks. I agree that he's an efficient scorer, but he can't actually shoot the ball when he's not right at the hoop. It's not just from the perimeter--he can't even shoot free throws, so he's not currently going to have an success with mid-range shots either. It's a pretty major deficit--I'd even venture to say his inability to shoot free throws well is a bigger detriment than not being able to shoot from the perimeter, since he has the skills to rack up so many free throws.
 
Hoopguru said:
If Philly gives up Simmons I see them wanting a legit scoring pg in a deal.
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Indeed, but the scoring point guard they want is Lillard, not CJ. In trading Simmons, they're not going to say, "Well, if Lillard isn't available, let's just take the next best one Portland has" (in my opinion).
 
Makes no sense to get Simmons. He's useless without the ball in his hands. Wont work playing with Dame.
 
Eli Vance said:
Makes no sense to get Simmons. He's useless without the ball in his hands. Wont work playing with Dame.
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There is absolutely no reason besides the fact that he hasn't ever been fed the ball in the Sixers offense, that Simmons wouldn't be great at scoring at the hoop off of passes. The guy is ultra athletic, probably the second most athletic big in the game after Giannis and he finishes really well at the hoop and scores with extremely good efficiency off of post ups. On plays where Dame initiated the offense he would be a spectacular roll man in the PnR. He'd also be great as a secondary play maker when Dame gets blitzed.

He is a younger, taller, longer, more athletic, better posting, slashing, cutting, dribbling and passing Draymond Green without Dray's inconsistent jumper because Ben's jumper is consistently terrible, whereas Dray's goes down but at a very inefficient rate. So yeah, I think his game would fit just fine with Dame's.
 
I don't know man, watching him in the playoffs, he does nothing without the ball. Doesn't move around, fight for positioning, rebound, try to make himself open, gives his defender the night off, zero effort to do anything. We're talking 4th quarter of a game seven here. They can't trust him with ball late in games cause his FT shooting sucks so he checks out. This checking out would transfer to his defensive effort if he didn't have the ball in his hands which would be for 90 percent of the game playing with Dame. I'm just not feeling the guy at all.

blazerkor said:
There is absolutely no reason besides the fact that he hasn't ever been fed the ball in the Sixers offense, that Simmons wouldn't be great at scoring at the hoop off of passes. The guy is ultra athletic, probably the second most athletic big in the game after Giannis and he finishes really well at the hoop and scores with extremely good efficiency off of post ups. On plays where Dame initiated the offense he would be a spectacular roll man in the PnR. He'd also be great as a secondary play maker when Dame gets blitzed.

He is a younger, taller, longer, more athletic, better posting, slashing, cutting, dribbling and passing Draymond Green without Dray's inconsistent jumper because Ben's jumper is consistently terrible, whereas Dray's goes down but at a very inefficient rate. So yeah, I think his game would fit just fine with Dame's.
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