Blake's 71.4 win percentage leads team.

[PapaG]

Proves how important stats like these are.

The idea is to win games, isn't it?

Last time I checked, the team with the highest PER in their starting line-up doesn't get a trophy for it at the end of the year.

 

[KingSpeed]

I never said I didn't like Outlaw, where did I say that? I actually like him and wish he would do good. He however is one of the most inconsistent players we have besides Martel Webster. IMO, for someone that's been around as long as he has on our team, should be playing better, and I feel that his play last year was "Crappy", and I feel that his play this year was "Crappy" too.

If he doesn't offer us instant offense, then he does nothing for us.

Same with Blake. If his shot doesn't fall, he does nothing else for us.

The two players are bench quality players; and unfortunately our team (and Kingspeed ) treats them like they are integral pieces of our club.

Once Bayless or Miller start above Blake, and once Cunningham gets over the rookie jitters, I totally expect them to take over Blake and Outlaw's spots. And we'll be a better team for it.

Man, you really don't understand the game if you think that all Blake is good for is shot making.

Dude, we were 8-3 with Outlaw. 6-6 since he went down. Outlaw is a VERY valuable part of this team. His defense is underrated. And his ability to play the 4 allows us to be effective when LMA plays the 5. When Outlaw went down and with Batum already out, we lost a LOT of our athleticism and became an easier team to beat.

 

[C_note]

These stats are pretty much worthless, there are a million ways you can look at it, and it would take hours at least to do a proper study...

 

[PapaG]

Pretty sure if I went to go check overall minutes played, Roy and Aldridge would be higher than Blake...they are forced to play with others on the team as well and don't get the benefit of playing pretty much exclusively with the team's two best players like Blake does...

/re-end thread

So "playing with others on the team" lowers their win% 17 points (Roy vs. Blake) and 11 points (LMA)? You actually just made an argument for Blake to get MORE PT, not less.

/re-open thread

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Pretty sure if I went to go check overall minutes played, Roy and Aldridge would be higher than Blake...they are forced to play with others on the team as well and don't get the benefit of playing pretty much exclusively with the team's two best players like Blake does...

/re-end thread

and I reiterate...

OK--but if Blake's win % is attributable to playing often with Roy, but Blake's win % is also better than Roy's, then it stands to reason that Roy's win % with Blake is better than his win % without Blake. And, since win % is a team-performance-based stat, that means that the team plays better with Roy-Blake than with Roy-(other).

I hate defending Blake (I dislike his game, think his stroke looks hideous, and want him traded), but simply dismissing this win % thing by saying "He plays with Roy" seems a little simplistic and ignorant to me.

 

[PapaG]

These stats are pretty much worthless, there are a million ways you can look at it, and it would take hours at least to do a proper study...

I'd argue that your analyzing of the stats was rather worthless, and not the actual stats.

 

[KingSpeed]

So "playing with others on the team" lowers their win% 17 points (Roy vs. Blake) and 11 points (LMA)? You actually just made an argument for Blake to get MORE PT, not less.

Exactly. That argument means that the "others on the team" are worse than Blake.

 

[blue32]

Man, you really don't understand the game if you think that all Blake is good for is shot making.

Dude, we were 8-3 with Outlaw. 6-6 since he went down. Outlaw is a VERY valuable part of this team. His defense is underrated. And his ability to play the 4 allows us to be effective when LMA plays the 5. When Outlaw went down and with Batum already out, we lost a LOT of our athleticism and became an easier team to beat.

Do me a favor and tell me what he does good for the team when he isn't making his shots?

And we all know what a cluster fuck it is when LMA plays the center position. Do you remember the last couple of games where Greg and Joel were on the bench (before Oden got injured) and LMA was center? We got obliterated on the boards, because neither LMA nor Outlaw rebound well.

Athleticism doesnt mean shit when the player isnt playing well; Outlaw has tons of it, but he doesnt consistently PLAY WELL. that's the problem. He's been playing for what 5 years now and is still his same inconsistent self?

 

[roydezlaw]

I never said I didn't like Outlaw, where did I say that? I actually like him and wish he would do good. He however is one of the most inconsistent players we have besides Martel Webster. IMO, for someone that's been around as long as he has on our team, should be playing better, and I feel that his play last year was "Crappy", and I feel that his play this year was "Crappy" too.

If he doesn't offer us instant offense, then he does nothing for us.

Same with Blake. If his shot doesn't fall, he does nothing else for us.

The two players are bench quality players; and unfortunately our team (and Kingspeed ) treats them like they are integral pieces of our club.

Once Bayless or Miller start above Blake, and once Cunningham gets over the rookie jitters, I totally expect them to take over Blake and Outlaw's spots. And we'll be a better team for it.

Nate and Monte have both mentioned missing Outlaws defense as well as his scoring. But they know nothing, right?

I really like how some people hone in on a certain players deficiencies and ignore others. Roy plays crappy defense(that Golden State game he refused to play any defense) and Aldridge is Mr. Kleenex.

When I start to think about it, everyone sucks according to someone. Our whole team sucks.

 

[PapaG]

Do me a favor and tell me what he does good for the team when he isn't making his shots?
And we all know what a cluster fuck it is when LMA plays the center position. Do you remember the last couple of games where Greg and Joel were on the bench (before Oden got injured) and LMA was center? We got obliterated on the boards, because neither LMA nor Outlaw rebound well.

Athleticism doesnt mean shit when the player isnt playing well; Outlaw has tons of it, but he doesnt consistently PLAY WELL. that's the problem. He's been playing for what 5 years now and is still his same inconsistent self?

He's the best defender the team has at the PG position. Also, his shot hasn't been falling all year, so the title of this thread should tell you what Blake does well when his shot isn't falling.

 

[RR7]

The problem, as I mentioned before, is this reflects more winning possesions than an overall effect on the game resulting in wins. How does someone lead the team in win%, yet is only 7th in win shares? it doesn't differentiate his impact on the floor to get that win%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Meanwhile, Battier is second to last on his team in win%, but is second on the team in win shares, probably reflecting more his true value to his team.

 

[blue32]

Nate and Monte have both mentioned missing Outlaws defense as well as his scoring. But they know nothing, right?

I really like how some people hone in on a certain players deficiencies and ignore others. Roy plays crappy defense(that Golden State game he refused to play any defense) and Aldridge is Mr. Kleenex.

When I start to think about it, everyone sucks according to someone. Our whole team sucks.

You can ignore Roy and LMA's deficiencies because they actually offer us something on the other end of the floor. That's the point people are trying to make here I think.

Blake's deficiencies are not being made up anywhere.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

By the way, if I were to take C_note's side in this discussion, I might postulate that Blake is more likely to get more minutes and "shifts" when he's playing well or positively impacting the team (and fewer when he's not), whereas Roy/Aldridge will play heavy minutes regardless of the situation, thus leading to higher win% for Blake. I don't know if I necessarily buy this theory, but I could see how one might suggest that.

 

[KingSpeed]

Do me a favor and tell me what he does good for the team when he isn't making his shots?

And we all know what a cluster fuck it is when LMA plays the center position. Do you remember the last couple of games where Greg and Joel were on the bench (before Oden got injured) and LMA was center? We got obliterated on the boards, because neither LMA nor Outlaw rebound well.

Athleticism doesnt mean shit when the player isnt playing well; Outlaw has tons of it, but he doesnt consistently PLAY WELL. that's the problem. He's been playing for what 5 years now and is still his same inconsistent self?

During the 13 game win streak, we played our best basketball in the 4th quarter with the this lineup- Jack, Roy, Jones, Outlaw, LMA

As for Outlaw, while he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, his jumping ability allows him to get to key rebounds at key points in the game. He spreads the floor with his ability to shoot the three whether he is making them or not. His defense is underrated and he is also a good shotblocker in key situations. Most of all, his ability play both the SF and PF positions makes us more versatile as a team. Our two biggest weaknesses right now are SF and backup PF, incidentally what Outlaw does best. And that is why we have been struggling without him.

 

[blue32]

He's the best defender the team has at the PG position. Also, his shot hasn't been falling all year, so the title of this thread should tell you what Blake does well when his shot isn't falling.

Dang, where was his defense last year when Brooks absolutely torched him. Didn't Deron torch Blake this year? (cant remember...)

If we're trying to fool ourselves into thinking Blake plays good defense based on that rating so far, I think were blind.

 

[roydezlaw]

You can ignore Roy and LMA's deficiencies because they actually offer us something on the other end of the floor. That's the point people are trying to make here I think.

Blake's deficiencies are not being made up anywhere.

I see no value in Blake playing. I'm pissed because Miller wasn't given a chance and I'm not going to forgive Roy until he proves he is about the team and not his numbers.

What I argue is that Travis is valuable but never given any credit here.

 

[blue32]

During the 13 game win streak, we played our best basketball in the 4th quarter with the this lineup- Jack, Roy, Jones, Outlaw, LMA

As for Outlaw, while he doesn't get a lot of rebounds, his jumping ability allows him to get to key rebounds at key points in the game. He spreads the floor with his ability to shoot the three whether he is making them or not. His defense is underrated and he is also a good shotblocker in key situations. Most of all, his ability play both the SF and PF positions makes us more versatile as a team. Our two biggest weaknesses right now are SF and backup PF, incidentally what Outlaw does best. And that is why we have been struggling without him.

I'm not arguing about his ability when he is playing well, my main point was he is so inconsistent for a 5 year player (including this year) that I believe he isn't that good of a player. If he was consistent, I would reverse my opinion immediately.

 

[C_note]

So "playing with others on the team" lowers their win% 17 points (Roy vs. Blake) and 11 points (LMA)? You actually just made an argument for Blake to get MORE PT, not less.

/re-open thread

It may be true that Blake helps Roy and Aldridge perform better...or he may be true he is just riding their coattails, which is what I'm inclined to believe. The point is there is no way to prove it one way or the other. These stats are useless. Especially when his supposed "win percentage" matches so closely with the exact amount of time he spends on the court with them.

20 games or whatever we've played so far is not enough of a sample size...and our other PG's have not had the same opportunity that Blake has had.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The problem, as I mentioned before, is this reflects more winning possesions than an overall effect on the game resulting in wins. How does someone lead the team in win%, yet is only 7th in win shares? it doesn't differentiate his impact on the floor to get that win%.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

Meanwhile, Battier is second to last on his team in win%, but is second on the team in win shares, probably reflecting more his true value to his team.

What fascinates me about "win shares" is that offensive win shares are based on individual stats, but defensive win shares are based on "defensive rating" (a team stat). Doesn't that seem inconsistent? I would think that might be at least part of the reason for this disparity.

 

[RR7]

Players have individual DRTGs that are their points per 100 possesions given up. It's not off of the team's DRTG.

 

[KingSpeed]

Dang, where was his defense last year when Brooks absolutely torched him. .

Check again. Brooks had a great Game 1, no argument there. But then Blake got better. In game 2, Brooks hit most of his shots at the end of the game when the Blazers already had the victory sealed.

THEN- Check out Games 3, 4, & 5. Blake shut Brooks down. Brooks shot 10 of 36 from the field in those three games. That's 28% shooting. (Meanwhile, Blake shot 49% from the field including 42% from the three point line).

Blake got better as the series went on. Torched? Hardly.

 

[KingSpeed]

I'm not arguing about his ability when he is playing well, my main point was he is so inconsistent for a 5 year player (including this year) that I believe he isn't that good of a player. If he was consistent, I would reverse my opinion immediately.

This is Travis' 7th year. And you can't argue that we are better without him. Travis is the answer to both of our weaknesses. SF and back up PF. Are you happier with Cunningham and Howard? I'm not.

 

[blue32]

Check again. Brooks had a great Game 1, no argument there. But then Blake got better. In game 2, Brooks hit most of his shots at the end of the game when the Blazers already had the victory sealed.

THEN- Check out Games 3, 4, & 5. Blake shut Brooks down. Brooks shot 10 of 36 from the field in those three games.

Blake got better as the series went on. Torched? Hardly.

Do you think we can win a championship with Blake at the point, with the way he is playing this year?

 

[blue32]

This is Travis' 7th year.

EVEN WORSE!!!

 

[Natebishop3]

Check again. Brooks had a great Game 1, no argument there. But then Blake got better. In game 2, Brooks hit most of his shots at the end of the game when the Blazers already had the victory sealed.

THEN- Check out Games 3, 4, & 5. Blake shut Brooks down. Brooks shot 10 of 36 from the field in those three games.

Blake got better as the series went on. Torched? Hardly.

I just wish Blake would stop holding himself back. He could be an All-Star

 

[C_note]

Exactly. That argument means that the "others on the team" are worse than Blake.

NO, it doesn't mean that at all. You guys just don't understand. There are so many freaking factors to look at. It could mean Roy and LMA just have more of an opportunity to fail against opponents' runs...they get tired more and start to play lazy defense...Roy is forced to handle the ball more, which takes him out of his element (the 2 guard spot). This last one could also could be supported by his great increase in turnovers this year...trying to do too much.

Could also just amplify the supposed clash between Roy and Miller's playing styles.

If anything, the win % stats here show how Roy and LMA play better with Blake, because they have more freedom to operate the way they are used to...not directly because of Blake, THERES NO WAY TO PROVE IT.

 

[crowTrobot]

the team front page at 82games factors their version of PER, oppenent PER at players position while they are in the game, and +/- all into one rating -

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910POR.HTM

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Players have individual DRTGs that are their points per 100 possesions given up. It's not off of the team's DRTG.

I understand that, but their individual DRTGs are calculated via team performance while that player is on the floor. It's a team stat in the same way that +/- and win% are--team performance during an individual's playing time.

 

[KingSpeed]

Do you think we can win a championship with Blake at the point, with the way he is playing this year?

Yes.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If anything, the win % stats here show how Roy and LMA play better with Blake, because they have more freedom to operate the way they are used to...not directly because of Blake, THERES NO WAY TO PROVE IT.

I don't care WHY they play better with Blake--if the team is better with him out there than not, then what else matters?