Bobcat players to trade for

[Rastapopoulos]

Supposedly the Bobcats have been shopping Raymond Felton and Gerald Wallace, which is very mysterious as they seem to be the only two players on that roster who can score. Either one of them seems tempting. I'm more interested in Wallace since I saw him carve up the Blazers in Charlotte - I thought he could only score in a running game, but he managed to get to the rim at will. Of course, that might be because our perimeter defense is terrible... which is partly why the Bobcat I'm most interested in is actually Raja Bell. I know he's technically a SG and we have two pretty decent players at that position, but what he really is is the guy who guards the best perimeter player on the other team, and you can play him alongside Roy and/or Rudy to do that. I would much rather see us acquire someone like him than Salmons, because Bell is (a) a great guy, (b) a tough guy, (c) a good teammate, who I think would have the James Jones effect, and most importantly (d) he hates, hates, HATES Kobe Bryant to the extent that (e) he clotheslined him. That alone would make him one of my fave players.

Trouble is, I have a feeling Larry Brown has fallen in love with him. We probably could have had him cheaper directly from Phoenix.

Memories:

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[MrJayremmie]

I heard that this year his defense has dropped off a lot, and he is just living on reputation. At least I heard that from Phoenix fans before he was traded.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think Brandon Roy would tell you different. I know Roy did better than in the past against him, but he certainly had to work for it.

 

[alex42083]

Funny I had that very same feeling when NBA TV interviewed Raja after the game last night. He'd be a nice complimentary veteran piece on this team to plug in at SF -- a guy who can defend the opposing team's best player, a guy who can hit the 3 ball and someone who doesn't command the ball.
I just don't know how we'd get him if we wanted him.

 

[mook]

I'd be more excited about getting him than Salmons. For a 1-2 year defensive small forward rental, he pretty much fits the bill. You could probably get it done by trading Outlaw/Sergio for him. They get younger, more offense, more size and frankly more talent. We get a tested vet who can teach Batum and Webster a world about defense at the NBA level.

A lot of my willingness to do this, though, would be based on how he's matched up recently against LeBron and Kobe. I haven't seen him defend those guys this year, so it's harder for me to be confident that this trade is what we want.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I was thinking Blake for Bell - that actually works salary-wise.

Rationale: Blake strikes me as a Larry Brown-type player, and part of the reason they're shopping Felton is that he's not a "real" PG. So they were playing Felton and Augustin together in the backcourt. Well, Blake is taller than Felton and probably a better 3-point shooter, plus he's a scrapper (Brown loves taking unheralded PGs and making them something - see Snow, Eric).

Why would we give up Blake? Does anyone really see him as the starter when we're contending?

 

[axs88]

Trouble is, I have a feeling Larry Brown has fallen in love with him.

I think you are right - I guess he pushed for the trade to bring him in, since it was him who brought Bell into the league in Philly back in the day (I remember a story that Brown discovered Raja Bell in some fitness gym playing with a buch of old guys).

Blake for Bell - I'd be down with that.

 

[mook]

I was thinking Blake for Bell - that actually works salary-wise.

Rationale: Blake strikes me as a Larry Brown-type player, and part of the reason they're shopping Felton is that he's not a "real" PG. So they were playing Felton and Augustin together in the backcourt. Well, Blake is taller than Felton and probably a better 3-point shooter, plus he's a scrapper (Brown loves taking unheralded PGs and making them something - see Snow, Eric).

Why would we give up Blake? Does anyone really see him as the starter when we're contending?

That's actually a more fair trade than the one I suggested. Really helps both teams.

I can't imagine Sergio succeeding under Larry Brown.

 

[Masbee]

Supposedly the Bobcats have been shopping Raymond Felton and Gerald Wallace, which is very mysterious as they seem to be the only two players on that roster who can score. Either one of them seems tempting. I'm more interested in Wallace since I saw him carve up the Blazers in Charlotte - I thought he could only score in a running game, but he managed to get to the rim at will. Of course, that might be because our perimeter defense is terrible... which is partly why the Bobcat I'm most interested in is actually Raja Bell. I know he's technically a SG and we have two pretty decent players at that position, but what he really is is the guy who guards the best perimeter player on the other team, and you can play him alongside Roy and/or Rudy to do that. I would much rather see us acquire someone like him than Salmons, because Bell is (a) a great guy, (b) a tough guy, (c) a good teammate, who I think would have the James Jones effect, and most importantly (d) he hates, hates, HATES Kobe Bryant to the extent that (e) he clotheslined him. That alone would make him one of my fave players.

Trouble is, I have a feeling Larry Brown has fallen in love with him. We probably could have had him cheaper directly from Phoenix.

Memories:

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No way.

First, Bell is not a Small Forward.

Second, he is on the backside of his career. Could drop off a cliff at any moment.

Third, you don't TRADE for guys like Raja Bell - unless they are minor parts of multi-player packages. If you want guys like that, you sign them in the off-season. Bell caliber players can be picked up for the MLE or less most summers.

If the Blazers wanted a Bell-like player, a much better target is Trevor Ariza.

He is a free agent this summer, and Buss WILL NOT match a long contract, which would cost him DOUBLE due to luxury tax. Buss won't think Ariza is worth $10mil per year.

Kill two birds with one stone - weaken (by a little bit) a rival, and get a wing stopper - one who is a lot younger than Bell.

Not ideal. Really want a higher caliber player to be a clear-cut starter at the 3, but options appear to be dwindeling.

Not saying I want this to be the result, but if KP found a way to make the big roster upgrade at the 1 spot, was able to lure Ariza as a free agent this summer, the team could sit down Rudy, Batum and Ariza and explain that the player that provided the best blend of defense and space creating long-ball offense would get the bulk of the minutes. Rudy works on defense, Batum hits the weights, and Trevor shoots jumpers all summer.

No to Bell.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Masbee:

1. I don't think we need a young SF. I think Batum is going to be at least Ariza good, and doesn't have the health issues (apart from that whole drop-dead-of-a-heart-attack possibility). But Batum's not quite ready yet (and possibly would never be if we got Ariza).
2. It's not just about what they'd do on the court. It never is (that was Whitsitt's "I'm not a Chemistry major" mistake). The most influential player the Lakers have brought in over the past three seasons is not Gasol or Ariza: it's Derek Fisher. Check out their performance before and after getting him and there's a much bigger jump than after either of the others. We have a ton of young talent. Any more will just be a hindrance (unless it's Derek Rose at PG, that is). We need guys who'll get the team to play AS a team. That was what James Jones was so good at, even though his numbers were mediocre. That's why teams with Battier tend to win a lot more than they do before they get him or after they get rid of him. See also Chauncey Billups, whose personal numbers, while good, aren't as good as some players he's much more valuable than.
3. The Lakers have Ariza's Bird rights.
4. The free agents like Bell go to the teams that are immediate contenders (or go to NY to re-unite with D'Antoni and good buddy Nash). Otherwise we might've had a shot at James Posey.

I think you're looking at Bell purely for his value on the court. And, besides, I think you're underestimating that. And come on - that clothesline has to count for something.

 

[Masbee]

Masbee:

1. I don't think we need a young SF. I think Batum is going to be at least Ariza good, and doesn't have the health issues (apart from that whole drop-dead-of-a-heart-attack possibility). But Batum's not quite ready yet (and possibly would never be if we got Ariza).

This is a strawman.

The choice is not between Batum and Ariza. The choice is between Bell and Ariza.

Additionally, a good GM (like KP) never says, "I am too thin, too rich, too smart or have too many good YOUNG players."

Young players have more potential value than old players. Given a choice for KP between a a young wing stopper vs an old wing stopper - he NEVER would pick the old one. That is just crazy.

Now add to it that Ariza could be obtained for "free" using an MLE level contract and no assets going out, that he would weaken a rival compared to sending out good stuff in order to get Bell, a player that will have zero value shortly, and the concept makes little sense.

2. It's not just about what they'd do on the court. It never is (that was Whitsitt's "I'm not a Chemistry major" mistake). The most influential player the Lakers have brought in over the past three seasons is not Gasol or Ariza: it's Derek Fisher. Check out their performance before and after getting him and there's a much bigger jump than after either of the others. We have a ton of young talent. Any more will just be a hindrance (unless it's Derek Rose at PG, that is). We need guys who'll get the team to play AS a team. That was what James Jones was so good at, even though his numbers were mediocre. That's why teams with Battier tend to win a lot more than they do before they get him or after they get rid of him. See also Chauncey Billups, whose personal numbers, while good, aren't as good as some players he's much more valuable than.

Now Derek Fisher is compared to Billups. Please.

Fisher is the luckiest SOB in the NBA. Stunningly overrated.

Simply put, he isn't very good anymore. Not that he was ever that great. Solid role player at his best.

His return to the Lakers coincided with a big roster overhaul. The illusion is the team came together when he returned. I don't think he had a lot to do with it.

And even so, what the hell does Fisher (or Billups) have to do with Raja Bell?

When the hell did Raja Bell get the rep and resume of a Billups or even a lucky dude like Fisher?

Simply put, he didn't and never did. If you want a Billups or Fisher, get one of those guys. Don't throw a Bell into the same group just because he is a "role player". Not all role players are alike.

3. The Lakers have Ariza's Bird rights.

Not full Bird Rights. And even if they had them, they wouldn't pay him more than MLE anyway. I don't think Buss will pay anything near an MLE deal. Can't afford it.

4. The free agents like Bell go to the teams that are immediate contenders (or go to NY to re-unite with D'Antoni and good buddy Nash). Otherwise we might've had a shot at James Posey.

We didn't get Posey because we didn't want him. Too old to fit the timeline, just like, wait for it............

Raja Bell.

I think you're looking at Bell purely for his value on the court. And, besides, I think you're underestimating that. And come on - that clothesline has to count for something.

Beatin on Kobe is amusing. Doesn't close (clothes?) the gap though.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

This is a strawman.
The choice is not between Batum and Ariza. The choice is between Bell and Ariza.

Not sure on your choice of fallacy names there. You make it sound like it's a false dilemma.
And actually, the choice would be between Batum and Ariza because of the age and positional similarity. So the choice is: Bell, who will peg out (and whose contract will expire) just as Batum hits his stride or Ariza (who will effectively make one of our THREE young SF EVEN MORE redundant, and probably Batum since he is most similar to him at present.

Additionally, a good GM (like KP) never says, "I am too thin, too rich, too smart or have too many good YOUNG players."

I would hope they would not be so asinine. Clearly you are confusing KP with Whitsitt. At least, I hope you are.

Young players have more potential value than old players. Given a choice for KP between a a young wing stopper vs an old wing stopper - he NEVER would pick the old one. That is just crazy.

Makes you wonder why Danny Ainge swapped Al Jefferson for KG. After all, look at their respective stats! What a moron.

Are you ignoring my claims about intangibles or are you an Ed O. type who refuses to countenance their very existence?

Now add to it that Ariza could be obtained for "free" using an MLE level contract and no assets going out, that he would weaken a rival compared to sending out good stuff in order to get Bell, a player that will have zero value shortly, and the concept makes little sense.

I know your problem! You're saying the choice is between Bell and Ariza when really the choice is between Bell and NOBODY. We're not getting Ariza. No how, no way. Why would the Lakers let him go? Why would he leave the Lakers?

Now Derek Fisher is compared to Billups. Please.

Now THAT'S a straw man - congrats! I'm not saying they can put up comparable numbers (clearly the only aspect of a basketball player that computes for you) because evidently Billups is better at that. I'm talking about their effect on the winning % of a team. Fisher is enormously valuable because he's a coach on the floor and a mentor in the lockerroom.

To get the point across, let me use an analogy: classrooms. Two classrooms can be taught the same lesson by the same professor, and even have exactly equivalent students in terms of raw ability, but have vastly different experiences because of the "dynamic" of the class. If somebody who's a wise-ass sets the tone of the room, it will be unproductive. Conversely, if somebody really gets into the class and takes it seriously, so will the others, even if that person is not intellectually gifted, just somebody the others respect. Maybe Ariza will be like that and soon even. But he's too young to be that guy now, and besides WE'RE NOT GETTING HIM.

Fisher is the luckiest SOB in the NBA. Stunningly overrated.

Who overrates him? He's underrated. Nobody mentions his re-acquisition as the point at which the Lakers turned it around, even though he's essentially the only difference between the average Lakers team that got bounced repeatedly in the first round and the Lakers team that was tearing up the league BEFORE the Gasol trade.

Simply put, he isn't very good anymore. Not that he was ever that great. Solid role player at his best.

Who we talking about? Actually I think this is wrong about Fisher AND Bell. Let's see Fisher go down and see how the Lakers do.

His return to the Lakers coincided with a big roster overhaul. The illusion is the team came together when he returned. I don't think he had a lot to do with it.

What was this big overhaul - do tell. And don't say Gasol, because the Lakers' record before and after Gasol was essentially the same. They tore up the league from the beginning of the season he returned.

And even so, what the hell does Fisher (or Billups) have to do with Raja Bell? When the hell did Raja Bell get the rep and resume of a Billups or even a lucky dude like Fisher?

To quote Dr. Johnson, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."

Not all role players are alike.

No shit. Some role players are assholes who have no positive effect on lockerrooms.

Not full Bird Rights. And even if they had them, they wouldn't pay him more than MLE anyway. I don't think Buss will pay anything near an MLE deal. Can't afford it.

Bullshit. The Lakers are very profitable.

We didn't get Posey because we didn't want him. Too old to fit the timeline, just like, wait for it............

Raja Bell.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know the only reason for us ever not getting a player is because we don't want him. We are as GODS AMONG NBA TEAMS. I also didn't know KP pours his heart out to you personally.

"The Timeline"? I want to see this timeline. When does it hit NBA championship? And why won't the Celtics realize that Rondo and KG can't exist on the same timeline?

 

[Masbee]

Not sure on your choice of fallacy names there. You make it sound like it's a false dilemma.
And actually, the choice would be between Batum and Ariza because of the age and positional similarity. So the choice is: Bell, who will peg out (and whose contract will expire) just as Batum hits his stride or Ariza (who will effectively make one of our THREE young SF EVEN MORE redundant, and probably Batum since he is most similar to him at present.



I would hope they would not be so asinine. Clearly you are confusing KP with Whitsitt. At least, I hope you are.



Makes you wonder why Danny Ainge swapped Al Jefferson for KG. After all, look at their respective stats! What a moron.

Are you ignoring my claims about intangibles or are you an Ed O. type who refuses to countenance their very existence?



I know your problem! You're saying the choice is between Bell and Ariza when really the choice is between Bell and NOBODY. We're not getting Ariza. No how, no way. Why would the Lakers let him go? Why would he leave the Lakers?



Now THAT'S a straw man - congrats! I'm not saying they can put up comparable numbers (clearly the only aspect of a basketball player that computes for you) because evidently Billups is better at that. I'm talking about their effect on the winning % of a team. Fisher is enormously valuable because he's a coach on the floor and a mentor in the lockerroom.

To get the point across, let me use an analogy: classrooms. Two classrooms can be taught the same lesson by the same professor, and even have exactly equivalent students in terms of raw ability, but have vastly different experiences because of the "dynamic" of the class. If somebody who's a wise-ass sets the tone of the room, it will be unproductive. Conversely, if somebody really gets into the class and takes it seriously, so will the others, even if that person is not intellectually gifted, just somebody the others respect. Maybe Ariza will be like that and soon even. But he's too young to be that guy now, and besides WE'RE NOT GETTING HIM.



Who overrates him? He's underrated. Nobody mentions his re-acquisition as the point at which the Lakers turned it around, even though he's essentially the only difference between the average Lakers team that got bounced repeatedly in the first round and the Lakers team that was tearing up the league BEFORE the Gasol trade.



Who we talking about? Actually I think this is wrong about Fisher AND Bell. Let's see Fisher go down and see how the Lakers do.



What was this big overhaul - do tell. And don't say Gasol, because the Lakers' record before and after Gasol was essentially the same. They tore up the league from the beginning of the season he returned.



To quote Dr. Johnson, "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding."



No shit. Some role players are assholes who have no positive effect on lockerrooms.



Bullshit. The Lakers are very profitable.



Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know the only reason for us ever not getting a player is because we don't want him. We are as GODS AMONG NBA TEAMS. I also didn't know KP pours his heart out to you personally.

"The Timeline"? I want to see this timeline. When does it hit NBA championship? And why won't the Celtics realize that Rondo and KG can't exist on the same timeline?

So much anger.


Still doesn't help the fact that Bell is not a good idea, no matter how many words you put into arguing the effort.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So much anger.

Why would you think I was angry?

I guess some people interpret disagreement as a sign of anger. We Vulcans are bemused by this.

Still doesn't help the fact that Bell is not a good idea, no matter how many words you put into arguing the effort.

Because of course that is one of YOUR beliefs and these are Fundamental Truths of the Universe, to which you have direct access, unmuddied by the necessity for evidence.

 

[B-Roy]

Who overrates him? He's underrated. Nobody mentions his re-acquisition as the point at which the Lakers turned it around, even though he's essentially the only difference between the average Lakers team that got bounced repeatedly in the first round and the Lakers team that was tearing up the league BEFORE the Gasol trade.

How about a good Andrew Bynum?

 

[gambitnut]

I was thinking Blake for Bell - that actually works salary-wise.

Rationale: Blake strikes me as a Larry Brown-type player, and part of the reason they're shopping Felton is that he's not a "real" PG. So they were playing Felton and Augustin together in the backcourt. Well, Blake is taller than Felton and probably a better 3-point shooter, plus he's a scrapper (Brown loves taking unheralded PGs and making them something - see Snow, Eric).

Why would we give up Blake? Does anyone really see him as the starter when we're contending?

I like that trade, but let's give them Shavlik Randolph as well and see if we can talk them into throwing in a second round draft pick, then bring over Koponen to fill the extra roster spot.

 

[free_lafrentz]

Blake isn't going anywhere. Sergio, however, has a limited number of days left in Portland. Why would we trade away our only vet PG in a deal for an undersized, aged forward in Raja Bell?

Blake can easily be moved to a backup when Bayless becomes comfortable with the starting role. Sergio is just filler in a deal at some point.

 

[mook]

Actually, I don't think size is really an issue for Bell. He's not as tall as a lot of small forwards, but he does an excellent job anyway.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Size isn't an issue for me either. Honestly.

Re: Bayless and Sergio: you're just trolling, aren't you? There are plenty of Bayless v. Sergio threads already.

 

[MickZagger]

I heard that this year his defense has dropped off a lot, and he is just living on reputation. At least I heard that from Phoenix fans before he was traded.

Where are you hearing all these things from these different fans?

 

[Masbee]

Actually, I don't think size is really an issue for Bell. He's not as tall as a lot of small forwards, but he does an excellent job anyway.

Bell is not a Small Forward.

Certainly no more so than Rudy will be.

Dude is guard sized.

As for "excellent". I dunno. He was off to the worst start of his career in Phoenix before they shipped him out.

Good timing if you ask me. When a guy is 32 too hard to tell if he is having an off season, or is just now too old.