Bye Zach Collins

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Fairly-Hard said:
Sengun led with his arm across Collins. Offensive Foul.
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he didn't extend the arm and the arm didn't impact Collins in any fashion. It wasn't an offensive foul in my view. The review didn't confirm the call but let it "stand"
 
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wizenheimer said:
he didn't extend the arm and the arm didn't impact Collins in any fashion. It wasn't an offensive foul in my view. The review didn't confirm the call but let it "stand"
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how is this not extending the arm? Its basically an elbow in the face and a crossing forearm blocking Collins out…
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BlazerBender said:
View attachment 51918 View attachment 51919

how is this not extending the arm? Its basically an elbow in the face and a crossing forearm blocking Collins out…
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to me it's not extending the arm...especially considering the picture is the most extreme point in time. Where the fuck is his arm supposed to be? on the bench? in the locker room? He's 4 feet in the air and his other arm, with the ball, is behind his vertical and opposite the "extended" arm, meaning his off arm was where it needed to be to maintain balance, and withstand the absolutely obvious coming contact without losing his balance backwards

and LOL, there was no contact to the face; Senguin's arm didn't get within 10 inches of Zach's punchable face.

here's a collection of poster dunks, the first one that came up, and around half of them have the dunker "extending" his arm in a similar fashion, or even more...and there weren't any offensive fouls called because of it. I timestamped one that was called a defensive foul



that call was one of those that if a defensive foul was called on Zach and reviewed, the call would stand as well....IMHO
 
Phatguysrule said:
Still bent 90 degrees at the elbow. Not extended.
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100% semantics. The arm is extended from the shoulder to the elbow putting the elbow to the face.
Is that not a foul? Last time i checked, an offensive player tossing an elbow into the face of the defender is a foul.
Which is the point.
 
Fairly-Hard said:
Sengun led with his arm across Collins. Offensive Foul.
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wizenheimer said:
he didn't extend the arm and the arm didn't impact Collins in any fashion. It wasn't an offensive foul in my view. The review didn't confirm the call but let it "stand"
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Per @dviss1, in a charge call, there are two considerations:
  1. Was Collins in a legal guarding position?
  2. Did Sengun go "to and through" Collins?
Legal guarding position equates to directly between the offensive player and the basket, and directly facing him. To me, that's a yes. Zach was outside the circle, lined up, and vertical.
"To and through" means not just making contact, but dislodging the defender from his position to get to or even past the defender's spot. To me, that's also a yes.

The "extended arm" is a red herring here. Sengun's entire body clearly went through a legal defender on that play.
 
wizenheimer said:
to me it's not extending the arm...especially considering the picture is the most extreme point in time. Where the fuck is his arm supposed to be? on the bench? in the locker room? He's 4 feet in the air and his other arm, with the ball, is behind his vertical and opposite the "extended" arm, meaning his off arm was where it needed to be to maintain balance, and withstand the absolutely obvious coming contact without losing his balance backwards

and LOL, there was no contact to the face; Senguin's arm didn't get within 10 inches of Zach's punchable face.

here's a collection of poster dunks, the first one that came up, and more than half of them have the dunker "extending" his arm in a similar fashion, or even more...and there weren't any offensive fouls called because of it. I timestamped one that was called a defensive foul



that call was one of those that if a defensive foul was called on Zach and reviewed, the call would stand as well....IMHO
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Its extended enough to put the elbow in collins face. Thats enough to be a foul as far as i understand the rules. He was clearly fending off the defender with the off arm, which, as far as i know, is a foul.
 
wait. No where close to his face. Not 10” ???
Look at the zoomed in screen shot again and maybe adjust that? Its clearly within a couple inches and possibly even touching the chin behind zachs left arm.

I have no clue how you come up with that. Video shot is evidence you are off.

unless you are claiming zachs left arm is about 18” wide…

upload_2022-12-9_9-13-39.jpeg
and those other poster dunks could be fouls too just not called? (Didnt watch the vid you posted)
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Per @dviss1, in a charge call, there are two considerations:
  1. Was Collins in a legal guarding position?
  2. Did Sengun go "to and through" Collins?
Legal guarding position equates to directly between the offensive player and the basket, and directly facing him. To me, that's a yes. Zach was outside the circle, lined up, and vertical.
"To and through" means not just making contact, but dislodging the defender from his position to get to or even past the defender's spot. To me, that's also a yes.

The "extended arm" is a red herring here. Sengun's entire body clearly went through a legal defender on that play.
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ill get his feedback on this, this weekend.
 
BlazerBender said:
100% semantics. The arm is extended from the shoulder to the elbow putting the elbow to the face.
Is that not a foul? Last time i checked, an offensive player tossing an elbow into the face of the defender is a foul.
Which is the point.
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No it's not. You are allowed that space (as long as you aren't swinging your elbow). You aren't allowed to extend your arm from the elbow out though.

And I'm speaking only about the arm. I haven't seen video, so don't know about the rest of their bodies. I'm not saying it wasn't a charge, just thet the arm wasn't a reason to call an offensive foul in those pictures.
 
Phatguysrule said:
No it's not. You are allowed that space (as long as you aren't swinging your elbow). You aren't allowed to extend your arm from the elbow out though.
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hmm, ive seen lots of elbows to the face called fouls.
I will say consistency in nba officiating is a pure joke though, so there is that.
 
BlazerBender said:
hmm, ive seen lots of elbows to the face called fouls.
I will say consistency in nba officiating is a pure joke though, so there is that.
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I would agree. If you are swinging the elbow that can be called, for sure. But just raising a bent arm is not a foul. Even if there is contact.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Per @dviss1, in a charge call, there are two considerations:
  1. Was Collins in a legal guarding position?
  2. Did Sengun go "to and through" Collins?
Legal guarding position equates to directly between the offensive player and the basket, and directly facing him. To me, that's a yes. Zach was outside the circle, lined up, and vertical.
"To and through" means not just making contact, but dislodging the defender from his position to get to or even past the defender's spot. To me, that's also a yes.

The "extended arm" is a red herring here. Sengun's entire body clearly went through a legal defender on that play.
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Looking again, I will rescind one part of this. He had one foot in the circle before he went up. So now I vote "no call".

upload_2022-12-9_9-31-25.png
 
Clearly used is off arm to clear out. Can't question that. Sick dunk, but offensive foul for sure.
 
BlazerBender said:
100% semantics. The arm is extended from the shoulder to the elbow putting the elbow to the face.
Is that not a foul? Last time i checked, an offensive player tossing an elbow into the face of the defender is a foul.
Which is the point.
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yeah, an elbow hitting a face is usually a foul, but not always

but are you blind? Senguin's elbow missed Zach's face by 10 inches. Zach's face didn't get touched, which is actually unusual for him
 
according to me, that wasnt a dunk, his hand didnt touch the rim, you might call it a nasty layup
 
wizenheimer said:
yeah, an elbow hitting a face is usually a foul, but not always

but are you blind? Senguin's elbow missed Zach's face by 10 inches. Zach's face didn't get touched, which is actually unusual for him
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Bro, i deal with measurements and recalibrations of distances all day long. I get paid well to do so.
One of us is blind aNd its not me. ;)

this is MUCH closer than 10”…
upload_2022-12-9_14-43-38.jpeg
 
BlazerBender said:
wait. No where close to his face. Not 10” ???
Look at the zoomed in screen shot again and maybe adjust that? Its clearly within a couple inches and possibly even touching the chin behind zachs left arm.
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start the actual video at 0:18 and tell me that the elbow hit Zach's face. It absolutely did not, so you saying it did is just false

in the video I posted that you didn't watch there were a bunch of poster dunks that had similar arm action to Senguin's....and were not called. I time-stamped one that had more egregious contact than Senguin's and was actually called a defensive foul. There were about a dozen actual ebow's to the face in that video by the way and I didn't see any offensive fouls called

my argument on the call 'standing' is that if it had been called a defensive foul on Zach, it almost certainly would have stood too

but this argument has run it's course. You're seeing an elbow to Zach's face that never happened and using that to justify the call. No point in taking it any further
 
wizenheimer said:
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First, to be fair, i never said his elbow hit his face. I said came within a couple inches.

but, okay. Now hold your arm out like collins is. Measure from the start of your bicep to your chin. When i do i get about 4-6 inches depending on how i cock my head back.

semantics though. Still looks like he led with his elbow, which to me, is typically a pushoff offensive foul.
Now platys point about his foot positioning negates all of this. :)
 
Last edited:
Every once in a while on here, a thread will keep popping up to the top of unread, but I hadn't been interested initially in the topic, and I ignore it. And then it continues and I go huh, what the hell is going on in there? So I take a look, and it's inevitably a page or three proving that people will argue about just about anything on here.
 
RR7 said:
Every once in a while on here, a thread will keep popping up to the top of unread, but I hadn't been interested initially in the topic, and I ignore it. And then it continues and I go huh, what the hell is going on in there? So I take a look, and it's inevitably a page or three proving that people will argue about just about anything on here.
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I was thinking the same exact thing when I opened this earlier.
 
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You guys are still talking about this? His off air cleared Zach away. It’s right there in those pics and video. His left forearm clears Zach’s arms.
 
What amazes me even more is how people will actually comment in a forum criticizing others for discussing things in a discussion forum!!!

its like complaining about shoppers in a grocery store.

“it amazes me that people come into a store and actually go down every isle and grab things and put them in their cart!!!”

To criticize an opinion is one thing. To criticize a discussion in a discussion forum?? Lol…

Some people are just not as perfect as others… so sorry to dissapoint…

now back to discussing basketball in a basketball forum( even with the potential for more critisism..) carry on…
 
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