Can we have a calm, reasoned discussion of Frank's weaknesses?

[FOMW]

HE'S SUCKING LIKE A SHOP VAC ON SIMMON'S NUTS!!!!

No, really, I don't understand his stubborn, stupid, bull-headed adherence to this FALSE image he's built up in his mind about who Bobby Simmons is. This is not about who Simmons was 4 years ago, not about what he did when he was a Clipper and Kerry Kittles called Frank to rave about Simmons' work ethic, not about what Simmons did in training camp or how he's healthy for the first time in over 2 years, not about Franks obvious love for the kind of player he THINKS Simmons is (the "glue" guy that knocks down a few open shots, does dirty work, and does all the "little" things).

The simple fact is that Simmons has had ONE, exactly ONE, good game in 14 regular season tries (against the Clippers). His contributions that game? He shot 4-9 overall and 3-4 from 3, grabbed 9 rebounds, and tallied 3 assists, 2 of which were genuinely do to nice drives and dishes to Lopez for dunks. Other than that game, he's had a sporadic good play or two where he played good defense or hustled for a loose ball or finally managed to hit a wide open jumper. But for every opportunity he manages to capitalize on, for every defensive stand or tough rebound, there are at least 4 wide open missed shots that Vince or Devin busted their asses to create for him, 2-3 turnovers, and several blow-bys or bad fouls because he is outquicked by an opponent. Most nights, he is a Net liability on the court (pardon the pun).

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't play or even that he shouldn't start, given the Nets personnel and injury situation at the moment. I'm willing to believe that he might be MARGINALLY better than Hassell (although I'm no longer sure since Hassell is a better defender and passer). And I do like Hayes' reliable and consistent contributions coming off the bench to help balance out the scoring from that unit. But there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for Simmons playing more minutes than Hayes or assuming the role of closing SF when Hayes has outplayed him in every facet of the game every time he's stepped on the floor. And there CERTAINLY is no excuse for Simmons playing the 4 for extended minutes in crunch time when Anderson and Yi are still available, are the youngsters in need of development in tight games, and when either could shoot blindfolded and likely be more proficient and clutch than Simmons.

This is the kind of shit that drives me crazy with Frank and that fuels less fair critics to scream for his head. He has a brilliant basketball mind, generally makes outstanding calls out of time outs, is fiercely loyal to and protective of his players, and is a "good guy" that I'm proud to have coach a team I root for. But he has areas that need VAST improvement, and clinging to a flawed perception of a player against all reason and evidence, and when superior alternatives exist, is one of them. Lawrence, take your head out of your ass, adjust your rotations, yank Bobby Simmons unless he's hitting early, and please put in the all round better player in Hayes (or Anderson or Yi, if we're talking the 4) when a game is on the line.

End of rant.

 

[ghoti]

HE'S SUCKING LIKE A SHOP VAC ON SIMMON'S NUTS!!!!

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't play or even that he shouldn't start, given the Nets personnel and injury situation at the moment.

That's the calm, reasoned answer to your decidedly un-calm rant.

I hope you feel better now, though.

 

[kobimel]

Hayes or Anderson should have been on the floor instead of Simmons in the clutch. Plain and simple.

EDIT: Simmons should never, ever, ever, EVER play 38 (!) minutes ever again. Even if it's triple OT and Hayes, Anderson, VC, Yi, Williams and Hassell are all fouled out.

 

[FOMW]

That's the calm, reasoned answer to your decidedly un-calm rant.

I hope you feel better now, though.

Huh??? What is the calm answer? The profane all caps first sentence was obviously put in for irony in view of the request for calm. But the rest of my post was QUITE calm.

But if you are somehow suggesting there isn't a hell of a lot of merit to the criticism, . . .

 

[nets1]

HE'S SUCKING LIKE A SHOP VAC ON SIMMON'S NUTS!!!!

No, really, I don't understand his stubborn, stupid, bull-headed adherence to this FALSE image he's built up in his mind about who Bobby Simmons is. This is not about who Simmons was 4 years ago, not about what he did when he was a Clipper and Kerry Kittles called Frank to rave about Simmons' work ethic, not about what Simmons did in training camp or how he's healthy for the first time in over 2 years, not about Franks obvious love for the kind of player he THINKS Simmons is (the "glue" guy that knocks down a few open shots, does dirty work, and does all the "little" things).

The simple fact is that Simmons has had ONE, exactly ONE, good game in 14 regular season tries (against the Clippers). His contributions that game? He shot 4-9 overall and 3-4 from 3, grabbed 9 rebounds, and tallied 3 assists, 2 of which were genuinely do to nice drives and dishes to Lopez for dunks. Other than that game, he's had a sporadic good play or two where he played good defense or hustled for a loose ball or finally managed to hit a wide open jumper. But for every opportunity he manages to capitalize on, for every defensive stand or tough rebound, there are at least 4 wide open missed shots that Vince or Devin busted their asses to create for him, 2-3 turnovers, and several blow-bys or bad fouls because he is outquicked by an opponent. Most nights, he is a Net liability on the court (pardon the pun).

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting he shouldn't play or even that he shouldn't start, given the Nets personnel and injury situation at the moment. I'm willing to believe that he might be MARGINALLY better than Hassell (although I'm no longer sure since Hassell is a better defender and passer). And I do like Hayes' reliable and consistent contributions coming off the bench to help balance out the scoring from that unit. But there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for Simmons playing more minutes than Hayes or assuming the role of closing SF when Hayes has outplayed him in every facet of the game every time he's stepped on the floor. And there CERTAINLY is no excuse for Simmons playing the 4 for extended minutes in crunch time when Anderson and Yi are still available, are the youngsters in need of development in tight games, and when either could shoot blindfolded and likely be more proficient and clutch than Simmons.

This is the kind of shit that drives me crazy with Frank and that fuels less fair critics to scream for his head. He has a brilliant basketball mind, generally makes outstanding calls out of time outs, is fiercely loyal to and protective of his players, and is a "good guy" that I'm proud to have coach a team I root for. But he has areas that need VAST improvement, and clinging to a flawed perception of a player against all reason and evidence, and when superior alternatives exist, is one of them. Lawrence, take your head out of your ass, adjust your rotations, yank Bobby Simmons unless he's hitting early, and please put in the all round better player in Hayes (or Anderson or Yi, if we're talking the 4) when a game is on the line.

End of rant.

yawn...

 

[FOMW]

Hayes or Anderson should have been on the floor instead of Simmons in the clutch. Plain and simple.

EDIT: Simmons should never, ever, ever, EVER play 38 (!) minutes ever again. Even if it's triple OT and Hayes, Anderson, VC, Yi, Williams and Hassell are all fouled out.

Thank you! It's unreal that Frank can't or won't see this, especially when he's got a young vet to turn to having maybe the best year of his career in Hayes.

 

[FOMW]

yawn...

So go to sleep if truth bores you that much.

 

[ghoti]

Huh??? What is the calm answer? The profane all caps first sentence was obviously put in for irony in view of the request for calm. But the rest of my post was QUITE calm.

But if you are somehow suggesting there isn't a hell of a lot of merit to the criticism, . . .

I just meant to quote the second sentence.

Can you at least wait for the alternatives to be available before assuming you know how Frank feels about playing Simmons?

His other rotation decisions have been dead on all season.

Also we won. Have a cocktail.

 

[FOMW]

I just meant to quote the second sentence.

Can you at least wait for the alternatives to be available before assuming you know how Frank feels about playing Simmons?

His other rotation decisions have been dead on all season.

Also we won. Have a cocktail.

The alternatives ARE available. Who the hell do you think Hayes is? And who is it we're supposed to be developing for the future if not Yi and Anderson? Simmons played significant crunch minutes at the 4 and did a shitty job for the most part. He played significant late minutes at the 3 when Hayes or Dooling should have been in and was even worse at that position. If Anderson had picked up his 6th foul and after Vince went out, MAYBE it could be defended. But not under the circumstances of that game.

And it's not about whether we won. As Frank would tell you, it's about getting better every game, and that damn well should include the coach.

 

[nets1]

So go to sleep if truth bores you that much.

dude, we won the game on the road with a team full of rookes, and the superstar goes down.
You can take any coach and put him under the microscope and come up with something. Frank sees this team 24/7 and knows alot more than us. I will defer to his valuation of the players. He brings Hayes off the bench to help the second team score since he goes with a 10 man rotation. The nets have 4 scorers on the starting unit in vc, harris, lopez, and Yi sometimes. Maybe he going with chemistry and team balance...

 

[ghoti]

The alternatives ARE available. Who the hell do you think Hayes is? And who is it we're supposed to be developing for the future if not Yi and Anderson? Simmons played significant crunch minutes at the 4 and did a shitty job for the most part. He played significant late minutes at the 3 when Hayes or Dooling should have been in and was even worse at that position. If Anderson had picked up his 6th foul and after Vince went out, MAYBE it could be defended. But not under the circumstances of that game.

And it's not about whether we won. As Frank would tell you, it's about getting better every game, and that damn well should include the coach.

I'm still trying to soak up all the calmness and reasoned-ness of this discussion.

So your main criticism is about the handful of possessions that Hayes was out and Simmons was in?

Let's weigh that against the fact that Frank has a team that should have about 4 wins at .500. They just won a second half of a back-to-back on the road.

I think it's awesome how you can deduce that Frank isn't improving because of some minor rotation decisions in one game - which of course you have a fraction of the information about that he is working with.

If ranting is making you feel better, then knock yourself out. I prefer to enjoy the game and celebrate the win.

 

[ghoti]

dude

dudette

 

[FOMW]

dude, we won the game on the road with a team full of rookes, and the superstar goes down.
You can take any coach and put him under the microscope and come up with something. Frank sees this team 24/7 and knows alot more than us. I will defer to his valuation of the players. He brings Hayes off the bench to help the second team score since he goes with a 10 man rotation. The nets have 4 scorers on the starting unit in vc, harris, lopez, and Yi sometimes. Maybe he going with chemistry and team balance...

Please don't lump me in with the Frank bashers that you may come across here or elsewhere. I have never, ever made a thread to single him out for criticism, and I'm supportive of his decisions and judgment in the great majority of cases. If you read my last paragraph, you'll see that I have great admiration for his knowledge of the game and coaching abilities in general terms.

But he's not perfect, and this is one area that surfaces time and again, whether it's failing to go to Ryan in the 4th quarter when Najera was laying eggs and the offense needed a boost or (in previous years) waiting far too long to start giving minutes to Boone at the expense of Jason Collins or stubbornly latching on to Simmons when Hayes and Anderson were both available.

And, btw, I'm not a dude.

 

[J.S]

chill out, Hayes would get too much pt if he was first unit. Also Simmons is in the showcase.

 

[FOMW]

I'm still trying to soak up all the calmness and reasoned-ness of this discussion.

So your main criticism is about the handful of possessions that Hayes was out and Simmons was in?

Let's weigh that against the fact that Frank has a team that should have about 4 wins at .500. They just won a second half of a back-to-back on the road.

I think it's awesome how you can deduce that Frank isn't improving because of some minor rotation decisions in one game - which of course you have a fraction of the information about that he is working with.

If ranting is making you feel better, then knock yourself out. I prefer to enjoy the game and celebrate the win.

My main criticism is exactly what I wrote, not what you conveniently re characterized to suit your own specious arguments.

The decision to stick with Simmons over Hayes has been going on not for one game but for ALL 14, and MANY, MANY possessions, even though it was patently obvious from the first minutes Jarvis stepped on the floor in New York preseason that he was a superior player simply for the fact that he can actually move, hit a jumper with confidence and range, and put the ball on the floor with some authority, three factors that are pretty important for a role playing SF in this offense. Oh, and he's defended much better too.

I have a fraction of the information Frank is working with, but I have ALL of the information that really matters, and that's looking at the fucking games and seeing that Simmons SUCKS. This isn't about whether Simmons should play. It's how much and at what crucial times his brick-laying ass should be on the bench, and Frank has done a piss poor job in both those areas.

And if you prefer to simply enjoy the wins and celebrate and believe I should be free to rant, why are you in here replying multiple times? By all means go enjoy yourself. I've been pissed for quite a while at this aspect of the rotations and finally let it boil over on the forum tonight.

 

[FOMW]

chill out, Hayes would get too much pt if he was first unit. Also Simmons is in the showcase.

Does anyone actually read anymore?

 

[ghoti]

Hayes is a second-unit player. There is very little benefit to him getting his time with the starters when he has a much more positive effect on the game when Carter and/or Harris is off the floor.

 

[ghoti]

I have a fraction of the information Frank is working with, but I have ALL of the information that really matters, and that's looking at the fucking games and seeing that Simmons SUCKS.

My mistake. Who could find any fault with this calm and well-reasoned argument?

 

[FOMW]

My mistake. Who could find any fault with this calm and well-reasoned argument?

Nobody with half a brain and a working pair of eyes.

 

[FOMW]

And BTW, when are you going to realize that the title of the thread was supposed to be ironic? Yes I tried to present the case calmly for a paragraph or two, just to make clear that I'm serious, but, for heaven's sake, I even ended the post with "end of rant".

 

[soul driver]

I have to agree, I've all but given up on Simmons. Hopefully as someone else said they are showcasing him. Needless to say, this isn't a surprise on Frank's part, he always seems to find a player he likes which really isn't all that great of a player.

 

[Tang Man]

Yi was terrible in the clutch, which is unlike him and therefore deserved to be yank. Anderson deserved minutes down the stretch but he had 5 fouls. Maybe Franks just isn't more comfortable with young players closing out games.

 

[CurlyBeast]

But there is absolutely NO JUSTIFICATION for Simmons playing more minutes than Hayes or assuming the role of closing SF when Hayes has outplayed him in every facet of the game every time he's stepped on the floor. And there CERTAINLY is no excuse for Simmons playing the 4 for extended minutes in crunch time when Anderson and Yi are still available, are the youngsters in need of development in tight games, and when either could shoot blindfolded and likely be more proficient and clutch than Simmons.

I think everyone would agree with this. Simmons playing in crunch time at the 4 as if he were RJ or something was mindboggling on Frank's part. It very nearly cost them the game, as did playing Simmons so much. It's possible that Frank sees something in practices with Simmons that isn't spilling over to games, and he wants to keep his confidence high in hopes of drawing that out, but still there's no excuse. Frank could clearly tell that Anderson was having a great game, much better than Simmons, and had earned the right to be playing down the stretch with his play. I was boiling at the thought of the aftergame comment, re: why did he pull Anderson for Simmons: "I just thought the stage might be a little too big for him, coming home, etc, BS crap ..." He needs to play the players who are playing their best down the stretch of games, rookies or vets - the only reason to change this formula is if you want to forcefeed the rookies not because you want to forcefeed Bobby friggin' Simmons! There's really no excuse for Simmons, the way he had been playing, to be in that position last night. Anderson was a much better option - but I don't think Frank will ever learn his lesson in this regard, and winning this game probably doesn't help.

 

[FOMW]

I was boiling at the thought of the aftergame comment, re: why did he pull Anderson for Simmons: "I just thought the stage might be a little too big for him, coming home, etc, BS crap ..."

That's exactly the same response he gave in the Hornets game last year at IZOD when he yanked Sean Williams, who was playing brilliantly and patrolling the paint like a one man platoon, and put in Jason Collins to close the game. The result? Collins fouled a 3 point shooter, the crucial play that swung the game for the Hornets and gave the Nets a loss.

He needs to play the players who are playing their best down the stretch of games, rookies or vets - the only reason to change this formula is if you want to forcefeed the rookies not because you want to forcefeed Bobby friggin' Simmons! There's really no excuse for Simmons, the way he had been playing, to be in that position last night. Anderson was a much better option

Cosign.

 

[User01]

Simmons is better than Hayes.

 

[YehYeh]

You've convinced me. I've taken down my Bobby Simmons avatar.

Maybe we'll just trade him for KG. Though I hear KG is a bit inconsistent at times.

 

[SportsTicker]

Simmons is shooting 40% from deep. Hayes is shooting 26%. In the last three games, Simmons is shooting 5 for 11 from deep; Hayes hasn't made a three pointer in three games.

End of discussion...at least the reasoned part.

 

[ViNNNsanity]

Simmons is getting wide open looks. People don't understand that having Hayes off the bench doesn't really help him all that much. I used to think he'd be better suited off the bench to make up for the lack of scoring, but he won't be as productive. Hayes is not a 2nd option, but he can be relied on heavenly as a 3rd. Give Jarvis those open looks and I guarantee a percentage higher than 40% without the dumb shit that Simmons pulls sometimes. He is better than Simmons in every aspect of the game, minus maybe strength. I really don't know how people aren't seeing that....

 

[Netted]

Simmons is a better defender than Hayes and a better scorer than Hassell... and that's not meant as praise for Simmons, but it is what it is. We need an upgrade here. Gerald Wallace please.

I like Hayes as the sub off the bench when Carter or Harris sit.

 

[FOMW]

Simmons is shooting 40% from deep. Hayes is shooting 26%. In the last three games, Simmons is shooting 5 for 11 from deep; Hayes hasn't made a three pointer in three games.

End of discussion...at least the reasoned part.

No, it's not the end. You conveniently overlook that no one is even pretending to guard Simmons on guard penetration, especially late, because he is such a bona fide brick layer. That has enormous secondary effect on the drive openings available for Vince and Devin. The high quality of shots Simmons is getting, how the ball is coming to him, is such that his misses are terribly damaging to team performance and will, eventually, be damaging to team morale if he is on the floor at crunch time. I even sensed that last night from Carter's body language at one point after about the 3rd wide open miss from Simmons last night.

On the other hand, Jarvis has hit HUGE jumpers in numerous games where momentum was an issue, including a crucial 3 late in Toronto while Simmons, IIRC, has yet to hit a crunch jumper in any game despite having many more opportunities. Hayes is further more a legitimate threat to fake a three, get his man in the air, drive in a ways, and hit an easier midrange jumper, which he has impressively done on several occasions. Simmons putting the ball on the floor is usually reason for averting the eyes.

The other obvious point is that shooting does not consist merely of 3-point territory. Hayes is shooting 49% from two point land and has taken 82 shots (68% of his total) from that region in 334 total game minutes. Simmons is shooting a horrifically abysmal 32% from 2-point territory while taking half (49%) of his shots from there. That differential is gargantuan.