Clingan poll

[beast blazer]

Clingan at best is a limited role player, and an archetype that doesn't have value in today's NBA. A useful role player does have a bit of value though, but it just feels pretty underwhelming to get that in the lottery as well as a result of all the losing last year. Its just such a crappy draft with no great alternative options that even though I would've made a different pick - I'm not too upset with it.

Rebounding and interior defense is and always will be important in the sport. Also he can finish inside. I don't think we really need a 3pt shooting center. We could sign Meyers Leonard if we needed one.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Draft is a crapshoot. Cronin used the opportunity to balance the team and improve our talent.

Taking a swing at a 7fter seems as good of a risk as anything.

 

[HailBlazers]

This image speaks for itself. Would love to be proven wrong, but I'm very skeptical.

View attachment 64999

Matches my eye test..

 

[Further]

he's certainly an engaging personality. i like his maturity.

I really like him. He soaks up lessons from his coaches and then is able to read the floor so well. The lessons can be taught, but the ability to understand those lessons and see them real time on the court is pretty damn rare. The earlier joke about Meyers Leonard was funny but honestly the brain is what separates them, and thats a huge advantage to Clingan.

 

[jlprk]

he's certainly an engaging personality. i like his maturity.

Sam Vecenie made a grrreat interview. He asked technical questions and got technical answeres. Clingan can verbalize, unlike most players who just grunt in self-praise. I'm talking about IQ, not personality.

Before seeing this, I said that Clingan's ceiling is Nurkic. Now I think it's certain that he'll get to that level. But he'll be a little taller. The only uncertainty is whether Clingan will eventually get the quality of coaching he got from Dan Hurley.

 

[kjironman1]

who was the "concensus" BPA at #3 in the 2023 draft?

Like i already said. You may want to dispute that and you can throw as many smokescreens out there as you want. I actually thought you would go for Oden vs Durant or even Bowie vs Jordan rather than bashing Scoot, but the fact remains he was widely considered the BPA when Portland took him. You might have been able to go after Lillard when he was picked also? Certainly would have had a great case bringing up Collins.
We will see where this all shakes out in time. Yes, I'm sure both of us will be here to talk about it. At least I hope you will be. I wanted Holland with the 7th pick. That was not to be. Now It seems Joe has a plan with the trade with the Wizards (Deni Avdija) and the obscure pick up from China Yongxi Cui ( That is pronounced "Jacky Cui" as I understand) so I'm on board with the process. Not only was Clingan considered the BPA but he might even be both the BPA and most needed position when all is said and done.

 

[kjironman1]

Sam Vecenie made a grrreat interview. He asked technical questions and got technical answeres. Clingan can verbalize, unlike most players who just grunt in self-praise. I'm talking about IQ, not personality.

Before seeing this, I said that Clingan's ceiling is Nurkic. Now I think it's certain that he'll get to that level. But he'll be a little taller. The only uncertainty is whether Clingan will eventually get the quality of coaching he got from Dan Hurley.

Does anyone know if Roy Rogers is coming back? Is there a better Big man coach on the team? Can they get one at some point?

 

[illmatic99]

I just hope he gets a chance to play real minutes in a role that is best suited for him.

 

[illmatic99]

Draft is a crapshoot. Cronin used the opportunity to balance the team and improve our talent.

Taking a swing at a 7fter seems as good of a risk as anything.

How exactly did drafting our 4th center balance our team?

 

[1 Eye Jack]

How exactly did drafting our 4th center balance our team?

I definitely think this was an insurance move against contract negotiations with Ayton. If he truly thinks he’s a max contract player than we’ll have to either trade him or let him walk no way we sign him to max

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I just hope he gets a chance to play real minutes in a role that is best suited for him.

15-25 mpg is totally fine for a 20 year old rookie center, I have zero concerns about him being able to get enough minutes next season. Gobert averaged 9mpg when he was a year older and then jumped up to 26mpg the next season at age22.

If Clingan is amazing as a rookie then perhaps next summer it could become something to address, we can only hope.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I definitely think this was an insurance move against contract negotiations with Ayton. If he truly thinks he’s a max contract player than we’ll have to either trade him or let him walk no way we sign him to max

I don't think this played a direct factor at all in the draft, it was a pure BPA move by the Blazers with a long term outlook. Not saying Clingan is for certain the BPA - just that the Blazers judged him to be.

Cronin basically confirmed as much in the press conference as the team is in talent acquisition mode and not worried about rotation/roles/etc. Obviously GM don't speak 100% of the complete truth, but their comments do give us some insight.

Insurance for Ayton eventually being elsewhere is a bonus, but even if the Blazers firmly plan on keeping Ayton here long term or plan on him departing soon they always would make this same pick.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

who was the "concensus" BPA at #3 in the 2023 draft?

I'm convinced the Blazers judged Clingan to be the pure BPA on the board at #7.

Now what the outside consensus is or whom later becomes the best player might be interesting for us to debate but that isn't a factor at all nor should it be in whom the Blazers select.

I'm not a fan of the Clingan pick because I don't think lumbering centers have much value. But there really wasnt any other great option at #7.

I'm glad the Blazers have selected whom they judge as BPA in the last 3 drafts. At least they didn't reach for a lesser prospect because they consider Ayton/Scoot to be locks long term at C/PG as a GM like John Nash probably would've done.

 

[illmatic99]

15-25 mpg is totally fine for a 20 year old rookie center, I have zero concerns about him being able to get enough minutes next season. Gobert averaged 9mpg when he was a year older and then jumped up to 26mpg the next season at age22.

If Clingan is amazing as a rookie then perhaps next summer it could become something to address, we can only hope.

Where do you see him getting 15-20 mpg right now with the roster as is?

 

[illmatic99]

I definitely think this was an insurance move against contract negotiations with Ayton. If he truly thinks he’s a max contract player than we’ll have to either trade him or let him walk no way we sign him to max

Given the apparent enthusiasm our FO has for Clingan, I doubt they took him so high in the draft for "insurance."

 

[Phatguysrule]

How exactly did drafting our 4th center balance our team?

The trade balanced the roster by sending out a pg and bringing in a guy who might be our best forward since Aldridge.

They just drafted the guy they thought was the best player available. No point in worrying about balance with a guy we don't expect to contribute for a season or two.

Amd let's be real. We have 1 center and some practice players. We'll see if Timelord can contribute, and if he can he'll likely be moved.

 

[illmatic99]

They just drafted the guy they thought was the best player available. No point in worrying about balance with a guy we don't expect to contribute for a season or two.

This appears to be a trend with Cronin. Drafting dudes high in the draft regardless of position.

I am squarely in the BPA boat but he gives such little thought to roster construction. Drafting high ceiling prospects who need time to develop....only to put them on tbe bench for a few yrs. He had the same plan with Scoot until Dame forced his way out.

Even Chauncey has complained that the rooks need time to play but the roster just doesnt allow it.

I don't think this is an unfair criticism.

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Given the apparent enthusiasm our FO has for Clingan, I doubt they took him so high in the draft for "insurance."

I agree I know they liked him and to be honest I like the pick. Just another reason to draft a center when you maybe have bigger needs. At this point the only position I’m concerned about is PF.

We have two guards that have potential to be really good, our SF looks really good with Dani and Camara, and Center now has Ayton and Clinigan.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Where do you see him getting 15-20 mpg right now with the roster as is?

Ayton has averaged 31mpg in his career, 32 last year - so that leaves ~17mpg for Clingan. If both are playing excellent they could explore 5-10mpg of twin towers against select teams such as Minnesota or second units. There will also be games missed which will open up tons of minutes - Ayton has averaged 59 games per season in his career.

While Timelord may get minutes game1 if healthy I think that would be very temporary with him traded very soon after or out with an injury. Timelord can play all his minutes at PF if required. Duop is a perfect 2nd/3rd string option who can play those backup minutes if Clingan isn't ready or there are injuries, but he can be beat out and pushed to third string if Clingan deserves it.

Our roster has such little talent and has plenty of openings for players to earn minutes, too much talent isn't an issue at all. This is nothing like the 2000 Blazers where Jermaine was on the 3rd string or the next year where Rod Strickland was the 3rd PG. Hell we had a quad guard lineup of players deserving minutes last year and they completed a whole 0 healthy games together. With how many shit G league or lesser players we have had on the roster playing major minutes the last three years I don't understand why so many posters think there will be some sort of minute crunch.

 

[cheesehoff]

Where do you see him getting 15-20 mpg right now with the roster as is?

I bet he doesn't see the floor for the first part of the season. If Ayton and Williams are here, they will get all the minutes. I think we'll trade one of them, but Williams needs to play to show other teams that he's still effective.
I think the bring DC along very slowly.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This appears to be a trend with Cronin. Drafting dudes high in the draft regardless of position.

I am squarely in the BPA boat but he gives such little thought to roster construction. Drafting high ceiling prospects who need time to develop....only to put them on tbe bench for a few yrs. He had the same plan with Scoot until Dame forced his way out.

Even Chauncey has complained that the rooks need time to play but the roster just doesnt allow it.

I don't think this is an unfair criticism.

Can you please name a single player that has deserved minutes since Cronin took over but didn't get them? I can't think of anyone - we've had about a dozen+ scrubs that are barely in the G League playing major minutes.

 

[andalusian]

This appears to be a trend with Cronin. Drafting dudes high in the draft regardless of position.

I am squarely in the BPA boat but he gives such little thought to roster construction. Drafting high ceiling prospects who need time to develop....only to put them on tbe bench for a few yrs. He had the same plan with Scoot until Dame forced his way out.

Little thought for roster construction? Seems like all he does is balance the roster, he is just not going to do it over-night trying to abuse draft capital for quick fixes that never work as NeO did. I think anyone that called for balancing the roster, adding athletic ability and size - can see that this is exactly what he is doing. And yes, taking BPA and taking the time to develop them is the price of getting good sustainably given what he was given as a starting point.

There are no silver bullets for small market teams, especially ones that do not have owners that are willing to wildly spend like drunken sailors. There is a reasonable way to do things, use the draft, trades when opportunity presents itself (like the recent Deni trade) and take your lumps as the young team grows. That's exactly what this FO has done. They have methodically balanced the roster (the roster had 4 6'3'' and under guards in prominent roles when JoeCro took over, only one of them somewhat willing to defend (NP), it now has 2 and one has defensive potential (Scoot). The roster he inherited had no starting level caliber forwards, this roster has 2. The roster he inherited had 1 drop coverage, one broken athletic center / forward, this roster has both an athletic center and now a drop coverage center.

Clingan will get his chances as a rookie, if he deserves more time, it will come at the expense of some of the vets (be it DA or RW), if not, he will learn in practice or the Remix. There is enough time for him on this roster as he is the only rim protecting drop coverage big available...

This team is much better balanced, it has more size, more athletic, but it is young, getting from a very poorly constructed roster to a balanced one has not been easy or quick and anyone that thought it would be - was fooling themselves. Dame and CJ's removal certainly meant the usable talent level fell, but the roster is clearly built to be a lot closer to what you need in the modern NBA. It just does not have the skill and experience required along with the talent to be effective, yet.

 

[Phatguysrule]

This appears to be a trend with Cronin. Drafting dudes high in the draft regardless of position.

I am squarely in the BPA boat but he gives such little thought to roster construction. Drafting high ceiling prospects who need time to develop....only to put them on tbe bench for a few yrs. He had the same plan with Scoot until Dame forced his way out.

Even Chauncey has complained that the rooks need time to play but the roster just doesnt allow it.

I don't think this is an unfair criticism.

That's what BPA means. You just draft the best player available and let the rest fall where it may.

Having two very good centers would be a good problem to have.

 

[TBpup]

This image speaks for itself. Would love to be proven wrong, but I'm very skeptical.

View attachment 64999

This is certainly some reason for concern. He's not just slower than many of the other centers, he was much slower and almost dead last.

 

[wizenheimer]

Like i already said. You may want to dispute that and you can throw as many smokescreens out there as you want. I actually thought you would go for Oden vs Durant or even Bowie vs Jordan rather than bashing Scoot, .

c'mon now kjiro, stop with the "bashing Scoot" strawman. That wasn't my intent and you know it. You talked up the assertion that the 'draft gurus' were saying Clingan was BPA at #7. Even more of them would have said that Scoot was BPA at #3 last year (many were saying he was BPA at #2) but that sure didn't turn out to be true. It's just guessing by everybody. Maybe Scoot will eventually end up as the 3rd best BPA in that draft, but he has a damn long way to go. Maybe Clingan will end up as the 7th best, or even hiher player in this draft...but I'm pretty skeptical

meaning that BPA, IMO, is mostly a totally subjective and meaningless catch-phrase that can be used to justify any decision like this

*****************************

OKC: 6'5 Jalen Williams & 6'6 Kenrich Williams
Den: Aaron Gordon & Peyton Watson
Minny: Kat & Kyle Anderson & Naz Reid
LAC: Paul George & Kobe Brown
Dallas: PJ Washington & Derrick Jones
Phx: Kevin Durant & Royce O'Neal & Josh Okogie
Pels: Zion and Herbert Jones
LAL: Lebron and Hachimura
Sac: Harrison Barnes & Trey Lyles
GS: Draymond and Kuminga
Hou: Jabari Smith & Cam Whitmore
Utah: Markkanen & Collins
Memphis: Santi Aldama & GG Jackson
Spurs: Jeremy Sochan & Cedi Osman

all this talk about Portland trying to experiment with a poor-man's-twin-towers lineup made me curious about who was the starting/backup PF's for the other teams in the WC. You know, with the idea that Ayton will have to defend those guys if he's the PF. Except for maybe Minny, I'm seeing Ayton being at a significant mobility advantage against just about every PF he would be facing. When he wasn't being a turn-style for dribble-drives & slashes, he'll be out around the arc trying to guard against 3's when defensive rebounds are happening. Basically, him at PF, would exploit his weaknesses and detract from one of his strengths

Now I know a counter to that is that Ayton could 'punish' those smaller players on the other end of the floor with his low-block-turnaround-jumper game. But the NBA is pretty good at negating those kinds of one-man games, especially when the low block player is like Ayton who has not demonstrated the savvy and court vision to pass out of traps and doubles.

and where will Clingan be when Ayton is operating in the low block? 10-12 feet away on the other side of the key toe-tapping the paint? where his man can easily rotate to switch or trap or double Ayton?Essentially allowing opponents to clog the paint and make any Blazer dribble drives high-degree of difficulty against 2 rim protectors?

I think the Ayton + Clingan thing is what makes me most skeptical about using 7 on Clingan. If Portland has a plan in place to move Ayton, then I can adjust my expectations about Clingan. But I don't think the Blazers do. I think their plan was to tank into this weak 2024 draft and turn around and waste next season trying to make the play-in while dropping down several lottery spots in the much better 2025 draft. And of course...don't pay any luxury tax

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This is certainly some reason for concern. He's not just slower than many of the other centers, he was much slower and almost dead last.

Would be curious to see him compared to Jokic/Nurkic/Meyers or others who were thought of as stiffs when they entered the league. I remember hearing how horrible Jokic diet was as a rookie and that eventually he greatly improved that and his fitness. Seem like Clingan is already a good worker, which is good in many ways, but kind of sucks in that he probably doesn't have any room to improve fitness or quickness, etc.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

OKC: 6'5 Jalen Williams & 6'6 Kenrich Williams
Den: Aaron Gordon & Peyton Watson
Minny: Kat & Kyle Anderson & Naz Reid
LAC: Paul George & Kobe Brown
Dallas: PJ Washington & Derrick Jones
Phx: Kevin Durant & Royce O'Neal & Josh Okogie
Pels: Zion and Herbert Jones
LAL: Lebron and Hachimura
Sac: Harrison Barnes & Trey Lyles
GS: Draymond and Kuminga
Hou: Jabari Smith & Cam Whitmore
Utah: Markkanen & Collins
Memphis: Santi Aldama & GG Jackson
Spurs: Jeremy Sochan & Cedi Osman

Markkanen, Draymond, Kat, and LeBron would be fine for Ayton to match up against, they aren't quick enough to easily go around him. All the others would be a major problem.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

'draft gurus' were saying Clingan was BPA at #7. Even more of them would have said that Scoot was BPA at #3 last year (many were saying he was BPA at #2) but that sure didn't turn out to be true. It's just guessing by everybody. Maybe Scoot will eventually end up as the 3rd best BPA in that draft, but he has a damn long way to go. Maybe Clingan will end up as the 7th best, or even hiher player in this draft...but I'm pretty skeptical

meaning that BPA, IMO, is mostly a totally subjective and meaningless catch-phrase that can be used to justify any decision like this

BPA is judged at the time of the draft; not in hindsight.

It can be an oversimplification - as some players have higher floors, or lower ceilings, or are ready to contribute sooner, or more raw, etc.

Another way I like to think of it is tiers, interesting enough where basically top couple tiers were completing empty in this weeks draft. But the idea you shouldn't ever grab a player from a lower tier as the Blazers did with Webster over CP3 because they had Telfair. Especially you shouldn't do that at the top of the lottery.

 

[Ed O]

c'mon now kjiro, stop with the "bashing Scoot" strawman. That wasn't my intent and you know it. You talked up the assertion that the 'draft gurus' were saying Clingan was BPA at #7. Even more of them would have said that Scoot was BPA at #3 last year (many were saying he was BPA at #2) but that sure didn't turn out to be true. It's just guessing by everybody. Maybe Scoot will eventually end up as the 3rd best BPA in that draft, but he has a damn long way to go. Maybe Clingan will end up as the 7th best, or even hiher player in this draft...but I'm pretty skeptical

If you want to think that experts are not really experts, and/or that everyone is always just guessing... well, think what you want, but I think you're wrong. Some front offices seem to be correct more often than other front offices, and those differences are sometimes attributable to a person who then changes teams and has success there, too. Not that it's 100% accuracy, but there's skill involved that makes up for it beyond just luck IMO.

Also, and more vociferously, I disagree with the part I bolded above. Scoot has only had one season in the NBA and it's too early to say that he was not the second-best player available... because "player" is actually "prospect", usually. Meaning the net present value of a guy, rather than what he'll do the first year in the league.

If "best player available" meant "most ready to have a good first year", then you'd see a lot more older guys get drafted early. Instead, BPA has to do with best prospect independent of position.

 

[Mr. Robot]

I just hope he gets a chance to play real minutes in a role that is best suited for him.

that would be rudy gobert role, grabbing the rebounds, defending the rim & converting the lob passes

im not saying thats the best role for him, im saying thats the role he will get