OT Coronavirus: America in chaos, News and Updates. One million Americans dead and counting (1 Viewer)

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wizenheimer said:
there is not "too much at stake" to justify getting things wrong when it comes to a vaccine. There's no good justification for shit-canning protocols that have been put in place for excellent reasons. The process has been incredibly rushed to this point, meaning that the danger of eliminating essential stages is much higher. And it's ridiculously obvious that trump and his sheeple are doing everything they can to get something out before the election. It's just as obvious they don't give a shit if the vaccine is safe, just as long as it's something trump can brag about

if you want to know how and why the phase 1, phase 2, & phase 3 trials came to be protocols, followed by efficacy and anti-body testing, followed by a set period of time to study side effects, then read up about the disaster of the first polio vaccine:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/
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I’m assuming we’ve learned a few things in the last 65 years.
 
tlongII said:
I’m assuming we’ve learned a few things in the last 65 years.
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c'mon man...of course we've fucking learned things. That's why we have a process for vaccine approval, but trump wants to bypass that process in order to say he was responsible for getting a vaccine 'out' before the election and deflect from his failures. Nothing could be more obvious

I'm not saying that vaccine will be a bust. I am saying the process is there for a reason and to abandon it is risky as hell. Furthermore, it is going to massively undermine confidence in this particular vaccine, and vaccines in general. There's not one good thing about that
 
Disturbing information on MSNBC showing how experts are forced out of White House and instead listening to quack Scott Atlas, a radiologist with zero expertise in virology, public health, epidemiology, or infectious diseases. White House issues guidelines to each state. As recently as mid August, guidelines to South Dakota and Nebraska, which have huge outbreaks, recommended masks and social distancing, closing some indoor spaces. The outbreaks have gotten worse in those states, which did not follow guidelines, but new guidelines, while acknowledging worsening case loads, have no recommendations for avoiding infection. Atlas is the quack who says the more infections the better because we can then reach "herd immunity" (not "herd mentality" or "turd" as Trump called it).

First, this assumes a Corona virus infection leaves a person with lifelong immunity, provided they recover. That is simply not known. Some infections do confer lifelong immunity, others do not. Some viruses mutate rapidly, which is why we need a new flu shot every year. So the basic premise is at best unproven.

According to people who actually know about epidemiology, it would require 70% infection rate to achieve herd immunity without effective vaccine. The current death rate is just shy of 3%. So that would mean 6.5 million dead Americans in hopes of a herd immunity that might never happen. The most optimistic estimate of infection rate needed for herd immunity is 65%. Atlas claims, with no basis, the death rate can be reduced to 1%. Even if you accept this most optimistic unfounded view, that would be over 2 million dead Americans, about ten times where we are now. With concomitant economic and educational devastation, family dislocation, over stressed health care facilities, collapse of state and local budgets.

Trump say Atlas on Fox News, where else, and decided he liked him better than the experts because it aligns with his failure. In seven months, no plan for combating pandemic. So now he can say doing nothing is precisely his plan because a real doctor says so.

George Stephanopoulos asked him if he wasn't worried about being infected himself. He said no, at his rallies he stands far from the crowd, is tested daily, and everyone who comes in contact with him is masked.

So it's just fine if 6.5 million Americans die, as long as he isn't one of them. Besides, Black and LatinX people are more likely to be exposed and they don't vote for him.

Meanwhile Barr compared wearing a mask to slavery. Of course no such thing as white privilege....
 
wizenheimer said:
c'mon man...of course we've fucking learned things. That's why we have a process for vaccine approval, but trump wants to bypass that process in order to say he was responsible for getting a vaccine 'out' before the election and deflect from his failures. Nothing could be more obvious

I'm not saying that vaccine will be a bust. I am saying the process is there for a reason and to abandon it is risky as hell. Furthermore, it is going to massively undermine confidence in this particular vaccine, and vaccines in general. There's not one good thing about that
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Processes can be improved and are improved all the time. There is no good reason not to review this process and identify ways to speed it up. We absolutely HAVE TO speed it up in my opinion.
 
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More news.

The post office back in April planned to mail five masks to each household, at a time when masks were often hard to find. They prepared a press release and were ready to go when Trump administration called it off.

The highly criticized CDC testing recommendation that said people exposed to Corona virus who are asymptomatic don't need to be tested was not written by CDC but was posted on their website by white house over their strenuous objections.

Tired of winning yet?
 
tlongII said:
Processes can be improved and are improved all the time. There is no good reason not to review this process and identify ways to speed it up. We absolutely HAVE TO speed it up in my opinion.
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It is always essential to improve processes. But, it is reckless to expedite a vaccine as a political stunt. It is crucial to allow time for proper testing of any vaccine to make sure it is safe and that it actually works. There is nothing more important than this vaccine being done right. As my dad always used to say, "Never half ass anything, always go full ass."
 
crandc said:
More news.

The post office back in April planned to mail five masks to each household, at a time when masks were often hard to find. They prepared a press release and were ready to go when Trump administration called it off.

The highly criticized CDC testing recommendation that said people exposed to Corona virus who are asymptomatic don't need to be tested was not written by CDC but was posted on their website by white house over their strenuous objections.

Tired of winning yet?
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tenor.gif
 
tlongII said:
Processes can be improved and are improved all the time. There is no good reason not to review this process and identify ways to speed it up. We absolutely HAVE TO speed it up in my opinion.
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just how is it you know the process has been improved for this vaccine??
 
tlongII said:
Processes can be improved and are improved all the time. There is no good reason not to review this process and identify ways to speed it up. We absolutely HAVE TO speed it up in my opinion.
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There are good reasons. I worked in drug development. Controlled trials are absolutely essential for determining safety and efficacy. Especially for a vaccine that is given to population that is not sick. Cutting corners has led to serious, sometimes tragic, results. Companies don't delay drug rollout due to perversity or because they are part of a deep state conspiracy against Trump.
 
tlongII said:
Processes can be improved and are improved all the time. There is no good reason not to review this process and identify ways to speed it up. We absolutely HAVE TO speed it up in my opinion.
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That's called efficiency. That should be the goal for all process's or procedures. Take steps out of the process for an improved result equals efficiency.
 
Hoopguru said:
That's called efficiency. That should be the goal for all process's or procedures. Take steps out of the process for an improved result equals efficiency.
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Yes, but efficiency cannot be a surrogate for effectiveness. We must not mistake the two. High quality work equals high quality results. The more steps taken out when we are not yet sure of the result may equal greater efficiency, but the effectiveness will suffer greatly. Prudence is necessity. When we know the results, we can then review the process to understand which steps are crucial and which are not. It is then we can work for greater efficiency.
 
Hoopguru said:
That's called efficiency. That should be the goal for all process's or procedures. Take steps out of the process for an improved result equals efficiency.
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What steps would you take out? Safety? Stability? Adverse events? Purity? Drug interaction?
 
Chris Craig said:
Yes, but efficiency cannot be a surrogate for effectiveness. We must not mistake the two. High quality work equals high quality results. The more steps taken out when we are not yet sure of the result may equal greater efficiency, but the effectiveness will suffer. Prudence is necessity.When we know the results, we can then review the process to understand which steps are crucial and which are not. It is then we can work for greater efficiency.
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agree...efficiency isn't achieved if you are less effective...the whole concept of efficiency is to meet or beat the existing product or result with few steps in the process.
 
crandc said:
What steps would you take out? Safety? Stability? Adverse events? Purity? Drug interaction?
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Where it was possible without a lessor result. If it is a perfect process with no room to improve the result, let it be. Think of all the steps on achieving a result and evaluate if there is a way to improve the product or process?
 
Efficiency signifies a peak level of performance that uses the least amount of inputs to achieve the highest amount of output. Efficiency requires reducing the number of unnecessary resources used to produce a given output including personal time and energy
 
crandc said:
There are good reasons. I worked in drug development. Controlled trials are absolutely essential for determining safety and efficacy. Especially for a vaccine that is given to population that is not sick. Cutting corners has led to serious, sometimes tragic, results. Companies don't delay drug rollout due to perversity or because they are part of a deep state conspiracy against Trump.
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Well apparently you think companies may speed up drug rollout due to a Trump conspiracy against the American public.
 
kjironman1 said:
I’ll take “Adverse Effects” for a $1000 Alex.
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But, that comes after you get to the result, not during. After scientists figure out the vaccine, then they look to remove the adverse effects. That is why vaccines take a while to make. You have to figure out what works against coronavirus and then test it for adverse effects, then work to remove/stabilize those effects. Then test it again. And, there are usually many adverse effects when you test it, so you have to go back and account for all of those. It is a lot of work and it takes time. It cant be done in a month.
 
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