OT COVID19: Who to Blame?

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Fez Forthright said:
China.
Wet.
Markets.

Change my mind.
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So blame away. Does it make you feel better? Are you still mad at the US for Swine Flu?
The only sense of "blame" that is of use is "recognize as the likely cause" because that can be the basis for change. But "get mad at" or "try to get others mad at" (which is what Trump is doing) is pointless and counterproductive.
 
Lanny said:
Not true. You could also say that even more help and better targeted help is being blocked by Republicans.
This had better get negotiated to a proper compromise soon or disaster is around the corner.
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It’s not a government shutdown where the two dipshit sides get to have their little standoff and blame the other side for ever and ever til the end of time. There’s a serious economic crisis affecting millions. Republicans happened to come up with an immediate solution to aid in an immediate problem. Democrats are blocking the plan and have yet to offer alternatives.

There is no defense of Democrats actions right now. Period. The Republicans plan might not be perfect but it’s providing immediate aid to people who need it.

Sorry lanny but there’s no excuse. You may be financially comfy but others are broke, jobless and the rent/mortgage is due in ten days.
 
This is what was happening as the virus was building momentum, the dems were wasting the country's time on a wild goose chase, handing out impeachment pens and patting themselves on the back for "getting" Trump.



I do agree that Trump didn't do enough early on and is still not doing enough. I highly doubt any other President would have acted swiftly either though.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
This is what was happening as the virus was building momentum, the dems were wasting the country's time on a wild goose chase, handing out impeachment pens and patting themselves on the back for "getting" Trump.



I do agree that Trump didn't do enough early on and is still not doing enough. I highly doubt any other President would have acted swiftly either though.
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Most presidents listen to the experts though. Our problem now is trump thinks he is the expert and he's about as dumb as a rock and won't take advice and surrounds himself with ass kissing yes men.
 
EL PRESIDENTE said:
This is what was happening as the virus was building momentum, the dems were wasting the country's time on a wild goose chase, handing out impeachment pens and patting themselves on the back for "getting" Trump.



I do agree that Trump didn't do enough early on and is still not doing enough. I highly doubt any other President would have acted swiftly either though.
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That's not correct. There were reports of the virus much earlier than that.

upload_2020-3-21_21-20-39.png

I made the virus thread on Jan 3rd.
 
CupWizier said:
Most presidents listen to the experts though. Our problem now is trump thinks he is the expert and he's about as dumb as a rock and won't take advice and surrounds himself with ass kissing yes men.
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Your last point is interesting. It seems like most presidents surround themselves with, their people its hard to know how many are yes men, but dont most if then pick mainly from their political party, and people who basically agree with their views. Not in any way defending Trump, just thinking about the point in pertaining to other presidents.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
The coronavirus did not escape from a lab. Here's how we know.

u8KNsyAuX9QEdRnqLBCD8S-320-80.jpg


Viruses like the novel coronavirus are shells holding genetic material.

(Image: © Andriy Onufriyenko/Getty Images)

As the novel coronavirus causing COVID-19 spreads across the globe, with cases surpassing 284,000 worldwide today (March 20), misinformation is spreading almost as fast.

One persistent myth is that this virus, called SARS-CoV-2, was made by scientists and escaped from a lab in Wuhan, China, where the outbreak began.

A new analysis of SARS-CoV-2 may finally put that latter idea to bed. A group of researchers compared the genome of this novel coronavirus with the seven other coronaviruses known to infect humans: SARS, MERS and SARS-CoV-2, which can cause severe disease; along with HKU1, NL63, OC43 and 229E, which typically cause just mild symptoms, the researchers wrote March 17 in the journal Nature Medicine.

"Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus," they write in the journal article.

Related: 13 coronavirus myths busted by science

Kristian Andersen, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research, and his colleagues looked at the genetic template for the spike proteins that protrude from the surface of the virus. The coronavirus uses these spikes to grab the outer walls of its host's cells and then enter those cells. They specifically looked at the gene sequences responsible for two key features of these spike proteins: the grabber, called the receptor-binding domain, that hooks onto host cells; and the so-called cleavage site that allows the virus to open and enter those cells.

That analysis showed that the "hook" part of the spike had evolved to target a receptor on the outside of human cells called ACE2, which is involved in blood pressure regulation. It is so effective at attaching to human cells that the researchers said the spike proteins were the result of natural selection and not genetic engineering.

Here's why: SARS-CoV-2 is very closely related to the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which fanned across the globe nearly 20 years ago. Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.

Another nail in the "escaped from evil lab" theory? The overall molecular structure of this virus is distinct from the known coronaviruses and instead most closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins that had been little studied and never known to cause humans any harm.

"If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," according to a statement from Scripps.

Where did the virus come from? The research group came up with two possible scenarios for the origin of SARS-CoV-2 in humans. One scenario follows the origin stories for a few other recent coronaviruses that have wreaked havoc in human populations. In that scenario, we contracted the virus directly from an animal — civets in the case of SARS and camels in the case of Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS). In the case of SARS-CoV-2, the researchers suggest that animal was a bat, which transmitted the virus to another intermediate animal (possibly a pangolin, some scientists have said) that brought the virus to humans.

Related: 20 of the worst epidemics and pandemics in history

In that possible scenario, the genetic features that make the new coronavirus so effective at infecting human cells (its pathogenic powers) would have been in place before hopping to humans.

In the other scenario, those pathogenic features would have evolved only after the virus jumped from its animal host to humans. Some coronaviruses that originated in pangolins have a "hook structure" (that receptor binding domain) similar to that of SARS-CoV-2. In that way, a pangolin either directly or indirectly passed its virus onto a human host. Then, once inside a human host, the virus could have evolved to have its other stealth feature — the cleavage site that lets it easily break into human cells. Once it developed that capacity, the researchers said, the coronavirus would be even more capable of spreading between people.

All of this technical detail could help scientists forecast the future of this pandemic. If the virus did enter human cells in a pathogenic form, that raises the probability of future outbreaks. The virus could still be circulating in the animal population and might again jump to humans, ready to cause an outbreak. But the chances of such future outbreaks are lower if the virus must first enter the human population and then evolve the pathogenic properties, the researchers said.

Coronavirus science and news
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html

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Care to summarize in five sentences or less?
 
HailBlazers said:
Care to summarize in five sentences or less?
Click to expand...

  1. Here's why: SARS-CoV-2 is very closely related to the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which fanned across the globe nearly 20 years ago.
  2. Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code.
  3. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells.
  4. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work.
  5. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.

  1. Another nail in the "escaped from evil lab" theory?
  2. The overall molecular structure of this virus is distinct from the known coronaviruses and instead most closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins that had been little studied and never known to cause humans any harm.
  3. "If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," according to a statement from Scripps.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
  1. Here's why: SARS-CoV-2 is very closely related to the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which fanned across the globe nearly 20 years ago.
  2. Scientists have studied how SARS-CoV differs from SARS-CoV-2 — with several key letter changes in the genetic code.
  3. Yet in computer simulations, the mutations in SARS-CoV-2 don't seem to work very well at helping the virus bind to human cells.
  4. If scientists had deliberately engineered this virus, they wouldn't have chosen mutations that computer models suggest won't work.
  5. But it turns out, nature is smarter than scientists, and the novel coronavirus found a way to mutate that was better — and completely different— from anything scientists could have created, the study found.

  1. Another nail in the "escaped from evil lab" theory?
  2. The overall molecular structure of this virus is distinct from the known coronaviruses and instead most closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins that had been little studied and never known to cause humans any harm.
  3. "If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness," according to a statement from Scripps.
Click to expand...

So nothing truly definitive, gotcha.
 
Minstrel said:
Yes, it's never possible to definitively prove a thing didn't happen. That's why so many people enjoy conspiracy theories.
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Just saying I keep seeing articles pop up that say "it's settled" "here's how we know" "nail in the coffin" etc and the evidence is simply less than that.
 
HailBlazers said:
Just saying I keep seeing articles pop up that say "it's settled" "here's how we know" "nail in the coffin" etc and the evidence is simply less than that.
Click to expand...

Intentionally releasing a virus on the world has been a scenario that has been discussed for many many years now. It is a very real concern. And when you consider how little resources it would take to do devastating worldwide damage it is in many ways a much more serious threat then a nuke being launched by some terrorist organization.

But if a nation or terrorist organization were to release a virus on the world they wouldn't do it in their own country. Too many risks. To even think about doing that in your own country you would first want to make sure you have a vaccine developed.

China doesn't.

The most likely scenario would be to release the virus by using an infected person walking through a major airport such as Hong Kong, London, or New York. Spread it world wide before anyone even knew it existed.

It wouldn't be released in a wet market in your own country.

Now if it were released by accident from "an evil lab" China would have known this had happened and would have locked down Wuhan much much quicker. They wouldn't want to intentionally or accidentally release a virus on their own people.

Also they would have had treatments available much quicker.

When developing an evil virus one of the things that you would make sure of was that it couldn't be treated or slowed by a common already available drug. Kind of defeats the point of developing an evil virus.

...

Also these articles that say "it's settled" "here's how we know" because you have to know these thing in order to develop a vaccine.
 
I like that some of the same people blaming wet markets are also saying it escaped from a lab. It can't be both.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Intentionally releasing a virus on the world has been a scenario that has been discussed for many many years now. It is a very real concern. And when you consider how little resources it would take to do devastating worldwide damage it is in many ways a much more serious threat then a nuke being launched by some terrorist organization.

But if a nation or terrorist organization were to release a virus on the world they wouldn't do it in their own country. Too many risks. To even think about doing that in your own country you would first want to make sure you have a vaccine developed.

China doesn't.

The most likely scenario would be to release the virus by using an infected person walking through a major airport such as Hong Kong, London, or New York. Spread it world wide before anyone even knew it existed.

It wouldn't be released in a wet market in your own country.

Now if it were released by accident from "an evil lab" China would have known this had happened and would have locked down Wuhan much much quicker. They wouldn't want to intentionally or accidentally release a virus on their own people.

Also they would have had treatments available much quicker.

When developing an evil virus one of the things that you would make sure of was that it couldn't be treated or slowed by a common already available drug. Kind of defeats the point of developing an evil virus.

...

Also these articles that say "it's settled" "here's how we know" because you have to know these thing in order to develop a vaccine.
Click to expand...
This is complete bullshit. If someone accidentally let a virus escape why on Earth would they have to know instantly? Many people seem to carry this virus with little obvious symptoms. It could be half way around the world before anyone knew.

You think scientists are advanced to the point that they can create a virus that no drug could possibly cure? What do you think they do, make them out of kevlar?

You think that scientists wouldn't possibly think outside the box against computer models and try something different?

On the other hand anyone who has ever bought something made in China should know that their products are the best in the world and never fail.

I'm also sure the people who designed the Tacoma Narrows Bridge never expected what was going to happen. Yet our government let it. Why would they do that to their own people? Oh yeah, they didn't know any better.

I don't even think it came from a lab but your reasons sound like these Senators explaining their stock sales.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Why do they deserve it? Because they spread information, dragged their feet on treating it as an emergency and tried to keep it quiet.

Exactly what he has done.

Meanwhile, South Korea hasn't fucked around pointing fingers, and despite (a) being much closer to China, and (b) getting their first case ON THE SAME DAY the US got theirs, already has it largely under control.

Also, why is Trump "throwing shade" at the Chinese govt.? Not because they deserve it (otherwise he would throw shade at Russia for their interference in US elections) but because he thinks it suits his interest, because it distracts idiots from the disastrous fuckup he's making. And evidence points to him being right about that.
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i havent read anything else so mYbe this was mentioned but...

its not like north korea has roughly the same square miles and spread and amount of large cities like America has.

One of the issues is the large scale of our geological spread. Much harder to contain and control when a country is aBout 50 times the size of the one being compared to....
 
jonnyboy said:
It’s not a government shutdown where the two dipshit sides get to have their little standoff and blame the other side for ever and ever til the end of time. There’s a serious economic crisis affecting millions. Republicans happened to come up with an immediate solution to aid in an immediate problem. Democrats are blocking the plan and have yet to offer alternatives.

There is no defense of Democrats actions right now. Period. The Republicans plan might not be perfect but it’s providing immediate aid to people who need it.

Sorry lanny but there’s no excuse. You may be financially comfy but others are broke, jobless and the rent/mortgage is due in ten days.
Click to expand...
The Democratic plan also provides immediate aid and it's even better aid. So why blame Democrats and not Republicans. The Republican plan places us deeply in debt while helping the wealthy more than they need and helping the disadvantaged less than they need. Remember the tax cut? Some of us are sick and tired of seeing the disadvantaged pay for the wealthy to have more caviar, yachts, vacation homes in the Bahamas, Mercedes Benzes and diamond necklaces. And they're going to cut Medicare and Social Security for that?
 
Orion Bailey said:
i havent read anything else so mYbe this was mentioned but...

its not like north korea has roughly the same square miles and spread and amount of large cities like America has.

One of the issues is the large scale of our geological spread. Much harder to contain and control when a country is aBout 50 times the size of the one being compared to....
Click to expand...
North Korea? How did they slip into a conversation that compared South Korea with the United States? Because they have the most isolation of any country on Earth, the only diseases that I know of that North Korea faces are starvation and VD due to the lack of any morality by their Dear Leader, his son and now his grandson.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Your last point is interesting. It seems like most presidents surround themselves with, their people its hard to know how many are yes men, but dont most if then pick mainly from their political party, and people who basically agree with their views. Not in any way defending Trump, just thinking about the point in pertaining to other presidents.
Click to expand...
Most Presidents pick people who are both knowledgeable and able to present opposing viewpoints to the President so the President will have options to choose from. This is exactly what upper level management does. I can't tell you how many times an engineering manager has asked me to present some different solutions that he could choose from. I presented technical solutions while other functionals presented nontechnical solutions. Sometimes there was overlap. This is the best and most logical course.

The alternative course is one based on narcissism and appeal to a political base. We don't want this type of reasoning, do we?
 
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