Did Brandon Roy Game the System?

[Wizard Mentor]

Brandon Roy didn't "game the system" after signing his massive contract. He Royally Screwed the team by signing it in the first place when he/the blazers/Roy's agent knew that he wouldn't be healthy enough to complete it. He even hit the airwaves a couple of times because the blazers didn't want to give him the max, and many of us wondered why the evil management didn't give it to him right away. Little did we know...

 

[Mediocre Man]

Brandon Roy didn't "game the system" after signing his massive contract. He Royally Screwed the team by signing it in the first place when he/the blazers/Roy's agent knew that he wouldn't be healthy enough to complete it. He even hit the airwaves a couple of times because the blazers didn't want to give him the max, and many of us wondered why the evil management didn't give it to him right away. Little did we know...

Again, no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer Roy that contract

 

[Nikolokolus]

Brandon Roy didn't "game the system" after signing his massive contract. He Royally Screwed the team by signing it in the first place when he/the blazers/Roy's agent knew that he wouldn't be healthy enough to complete it. He even hit the airwaves a couple of times because the blazers didn't want to give him the max, and many of us wondered why the evil management didn't give it to him right away. Little did we know...

Again, no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer Roy that contract

Like MM said, the Blazers were fully within their rights to walk away from the table and not extend him. Now maybe they felt like they were a little bit cornered, and KP kind of hamstrung the team with his public comments implying that he was on Roy's side, but if they were so convinced he was a bad gamble then they shouldn't have capitulated. Roy also didn't really screw the team; one way to look at it is this: he was woefully underpaid on his rookie scale contract and killed his knees, trying to carry a team back from the brink of the abyss. No Roy and likely there's still a half-full house most nights and less ticket revenue.

Personally I think it's highly unlikely that Roy "gamed" the situation. Any way you slice it, his knees are fucking hamburger. That's not to say he and his agent haven't tried to optimize his situation and extend his career however they can, but that's not illegal, and frankly it's not even unethical.

I wish him the best.

 

[Denny Crane]

Why do you say that? It doesn't save the Blazers any money. Brandon would just make double the maximum amount until his contract with the Blazers runs out.



I'm saying that Brandon and his agent knew prior to the start of this past season that whatever amount of time he might have left to play in the NBA, it wouldn't be long. His doctors were telling him that he should consider retiring. Brandon also knew that the upcoming compressed schedule of the shortened season would be awful for his knees. Given those factors, a smart agent certainly could have suggested to Brandon that the amnesty provisions offered a chance for him to maximize his income for whatever remaining amount of time he had left. Retire, get amnestied because it's the only smart play for the Blazers, and clear waivers before talking about a comeback. That may be pure fiction on my part, and probably is, I'm just saying it also would have been a pretty slick thing to do if you only look at the dollars.



Nobody significant would have said anything bad about the Blazers amnestying Roy prior to him announcing his retirement. Most people were calling the amnesty the Roy provision because he was the most likely player for it to be used on. The Blazers had decided that they weren't going to use it until Brandon announced he was retiring.

Look, I think you're probably right. I'm just saying it is also possible that Brandon pulled a pretty slick cross-over dribble on the Blazers.

No double dip.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64

If another team signs a player who has cleared waivers, the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money it still owes the player (and lower their team salary) by a commensurate amount. This is called the right of set-off. This is true if the player signs with any professional team -- it does not have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $5 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $762,195 (the minimum salary for a one-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $118,902. The team is still responsible for paying $4,881,098 of the original $5 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,881,098, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Again, no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer Roy that contract

An amazing point of view. The reality is that even the hardened critics on these forums just love Roy.

Really, if this is one's point of view, then why would anyone ever bitch about Darius Miles. After all,
"no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer (Darius) that contract." Darius played
a lot more than Roy.

 

[Nikolokolus]

An amazing point of view. The reality is that even the hardened critics on these forums just love Roy.

Really, if this is one's point of view, then why would anyone ever bitch about Darius Miles. After all,
"no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer (Darius) that contract." Darius played
a lot more than Roy.

That's super easy: Production. Roy was super productive and Miles was not. End of discussion.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

That's super easy: Production. Roy was super productive and Miles was not. End of discussion.

What are you talking about? Roy scored ZERO points for us last season on contract, ZERO points for us next season on contract, and ZERO points for us the following season on contract - Miles scored points in each of his contract years.
End of Discussion, indeed - based on your own metric your are WRONG.

 

[PapaG]

An amazing point of view. The reality is that even the hardened critics on these forums just love Roy.

Really, if this is one's point of view, then why would anyone ever bitch about Darius Miles. After all,
"no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer (Darius) that contract." Darius played
a lot more than Roy.

You're really wondering why people are willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt compared to Darius Miles? Really???

 

[Nikolokolus]

What are you talking about? Roy scored ZERO points for us last season on contract, ZERO points for us next season on contract, and ZERO points for us the following season on contract - Miles scored points in each of his contract years.
You're right - End of Discussion - based on your own metric your are WRONG.

When Roy was playing and healthy he was a top ten player in the league and lead the team to a lot of wins and playoff appearences, when Miles was healthy and playing he wildly underperformed and was seen as a lazy, dog. When both were unhealthy, Roy was seen as killing himself trying to play at all costs (even when he couldn't really go). Miles on the other hand was seen as a guy taking his sweet assed time.

And no, Miles didn't score points in each of his contract seasons, or are we forgetting that whole sordid medical retirment fiasco?

 

[e_blazer]

No double dip.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q64

If another team signs a player who has cleared waivers, the player's original team is allowed to reduce the amount of money it still owes the player (and lower their team salary) by a commensurate amount. This is called the right of set-off. This is true if the player signs with any professional team -- it does not have to be an NBA team. The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $5 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $762,195 (the minimum salary for a one-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $118,902. The team is still responsible for paying $4,881,098 of the original $5 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,881,098, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

Thanks, Denny, I missed that. However, while it's a reduced double dip, it's still a double dip. If Brandon gets a contract for $3M, the Blazers would get to reduce their payment to him by $1.12M.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

When Roy was playing and healthy he was a top ten player in the league and lead the team to a lot of wins and playoff appearences, when Miles was healthy and playing he wildly underperformed and was seen as a lazy, dog. When both were unhealthy, Roy was seen as killing himself trying to play at all costs (even when he couldn't really go). Miles on the other hand was seen as a guy taking his sweet assed time.

And no, Miles didn't score points in each of his contract seasons, or are we forgetting that whole sordid medical retirment fiasco?

You flippantly said easy, it was about production. Now you're say "When Roy was healthy..." That's the point, Roy wasn't healthy when he signed the contract and knew he wouldn't be, and brought the negotiations to the public a couple of times to elicit sympathy for a MAX contract. The weird reply earlier in the thread was

no one held the gun to the Blazers heads and made them offer Roy that contract.

The point I was making before you chimed in with you obviously wrong nonsequitor was that if you had this point of view, you should never be unhappy with any player (such as Darius Miles). If a player doesn't play hard and acts like a total jackass, by this logic why would you ever complain about the player? After all, no one held a gun to management's head to sign/draft/trade for the player.

Bottom line, people want to think of Roy as strictly a "good guy" and he's not. I love the guy too, but he did absolutely screwed the blazers.

 

[Nikolokolus]

People will forgive a player's body betraying them. People will not usually forgive a player dogging it. Miles was perceived as a lazy, ne'er do-well, Roy was perceived (rightly or wrongly?) as a hard-worker who gave it everything on the court until his body crapped out.

Furthermore, to say Roy screwed the Blazers you'd have to believe that he knowingly inked his extension in 2009 with the foreknowledge that he'd be out of the league in 3 years. These guys usually have an incredible belief in themselves that borders on egomania, if they don't they can't do what they do. I highly doubt Roy thought he wouldn't be able to play out his contract.

And ultimately, with the amnesty clause and the no-double dip rule, Roy isn't going to be increasing his earnings by coming back to play and the only thing the Blazers lose out on is the money they owe him minus whatever gets picked up by insurance and Roy's new team -- well that, and a year of Raymond Felton and Jamal Crawful.

 

[Natebishop3]

I really don't care if he did. He's off our cap, he can't play for the team, and he's no longer our problem. If the guy can come back and play, great for him. I just hope he doesn't do some kind of permanent damage that could effect his quality of life down the road. Roy doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is doing it for the money. Miles was that guy. Totally that guy. Roy is someone who loves the game and wants to give it one more shot. I don't think it's going to work out for him because he simply doesn't have any meniscus left. That's not something that any amount of hard work can get around. I suspect he'll come back, play for a year or less, and then retire again once he gets some closure and realizes that he made the right decision in the first place.

 

[bigbailes]

When Roy was playing and healthy he was a top ten player in the league and lead the team to a lot of wins and playoff appearences, when Miles was healthy and playing he wildly underperformed and was seen as a lazy, dog. When both were unhealthy, Roy was seen as killing himself trying to play at all costs (even when he couldn't really go). Miles on the other hand was seen as a guy taking his sweet assed time.

And no, Miles didn't score points in each of his contract seasons, or are we forgetting that whole sordid medical retirment fiasco?

This plus Miles contract was still killing us after he "retired" while with Roy it's only affecting PA's checkbook and isn't hindering the Blazers cap room. I was never a Roy apologist (being a Wazzu grad I could never truly embrace him) but in the end Nik and others are right. They didn't HAVE to sign him. It takes two willing parties to agree to a contract and in the end both were.

 

[crandc]

If Roy was just "doing it for the money" he'd do nothing. He gets the money. If he signs with another team he does not get more money, just a different sig on the check.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

People will forgive a player's body betraying them. People will not usually forgive a player dogging it. Miles was perceived as a lazy, ne'er do-well, Roy was perceived (rightly or wrongly?) as a hard-worker who gave it everything on the court until his body crapped out.

Furthermore, to say Roy screwed the Blazers you'd have to believe that he knowingly inked his extension in 2009 with the foreknowledge that he'd be out of the league in 3 years. These guys usually have an incredible belief in themselves that borders on egomania, if they don't they can't do what they do. I highly doubt Roy thought he wouldn't be able to play out his contract.

And ultimately, with the amnesty clause and the no-double dip rule, Roy isn't going to be increasing his earnings by coming back to play and the only thing the Blazers lose out on is the money they owe him minus whatever gets picked up by insurance and Roy's new team -- well that, and a year of Raymond Felton and Jamal Crawful.

Makes sense. I wish Roy well and think he might still be able to play. However, I'm pretty sure that his days of playing NBA level defense is over.

 

[Natebishop3]

If Roy was just "doing it for the money" he'd do nothing. He gets the money. If he signs with another team he does not get more money, just a different sig on the check.

It doesn't seem like that's the case.... I think he gets our money AND whatever he signs for with another team. But really it doesn't matter. We waived him, nobody picked him up, and he sat out a year. He's totally within his rights to sign with another team at this point and make some extra cash on top of whatever we're paying him. It really doesn't bother me.

 

[PapaG]

It doesn't seem like that's the case.... I think he gets our money AND whatever he signs for with another team. But really it doesn't matter. We waived him, nobody picked him up, and he sat out a year. He's totally within his rights to sign with another team at this point and make some extra cash on top of whatever we're paying him. It really doesn't bother me.

Denny's link in this thread shows that's not the case.

 

[e_blazer]

If Roy was just "doing it for the money" he'd do nothing. He gets the money. If he signs with another team he does not get more money, just a different sig on the check.

Actually, that's not true, crandc. As the FAQ points out, while the Blazers will get some reduction in the amount they pay him, Roy will make more money than he would if he just continued in retirement. It's not as much more than I was originally thinking, but it's still likely to be another couple of million per year.

Do I think he'd do it just for the money? No. I do think that the most likely thing is that Brandon really thought he was done when he retired. I think his knees started feeling better without the regular pounding of NBA practice and play and that the internal competitive fire that made Brandon Brandon began to burn hot again. As it turns out, I think his getting amnestied and the Blazers moving on is in the best long term interests of the team. I also think that Brandon going to a different team for his swan song of a return is in his best interests. He isn't physically capable of being the franchise player anymore. Playing somewhere where he isn't expected to be The Man is better for him.

I guess this thing had just been bugging me since I heard about his potential comeback. I feel better having talked it through, so thanks for the therapy session.

 

[e_blazer]

Denny's link in this thread shows that's not the case.

Denny's link shows that the Blazers get some reduction, but Brandon can still make significantly more money.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Denny's link shows that the Blazers get some reduction, but Brandon can still make significantly more money.

That's sort of subjective IMO. Is a team really going to break the bank signing a guy who just retired for medical reasons? I highly doubt it.

 

[e_blazer]

That's sort of subjective IMO. Is a team really going to break the bank signing a guy who just retired for medical reasons? I highly doubt it.

The amount of difference that he makes depends upon the contract, but as the FAQ shows, even a $1M minimum contract would result in over $800K more per year.

 

[crandc]

I would not be surprised if his knees do feel better. If I stayed off computers for a year my hands would no doubt feel better. But as soon as I started, they'd be hurting again. Because once the damage is done, it's done. I wish Roy the best but frankly I don't see a comeback. I think his knees are just too shot.

 

[Natebishop3]

I would not be surprised if his knees do feel better. If I stayed off computers for a year my hands would no doubt feel better. But as soon as I started, they'd be hurting again. Because once the damage is done, it's done. I wish Roy the best but frankly I don't see a comeback. I think his knees are just too shot.

Well, like I said, I think this is more about closure than anything else. I think he'll come back, see that he really can't do what he used to do, and then retire again.

 

[magnifier661]

Well regardless I hope he gets a double dip! Love the dude and he can earn whatever amount of money more; as long as I get to see him on a team outside of Lakers and Heat. Fuck it, toss in OKC into the "I do not want him to play for" team.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I would not be surprised if his knees do feel better. If I stayed off computers for a year my hands would no doubt feel better. But as soon as I started, they'd be hurting again. Because once the damage is done, it's done. I wish Roy the best but frankly I don't see a comeback. I think his knees are just too shot.

Exactly. For him to make an actual comeback would imply he was never that badly injured to begin with.

 

[Denny Crane]

The amount of difference that he makes depends upon the contract, but as the FAQ shows, even a $1M minimum contract would result in over $800K more per year.

A $5M contract would result in about the same. It would just reduce the amount the Blazers owe him.

 

[e_blazer]

A $5M contract would result in about the same. It would just reduce the amount the Blazers owe him.

I think you need to read the second paragraph a little more closely, Denny:

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $5 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $762,195 (the minimum salary for a one-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $118,902. The team is still responsible for paying $4,881,098 of the original $5 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $5,881,098, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

At most, the Blazers get to reduce the amount they're on the hook to pay Brandon by 50% of his new contract less $762,195. Even in the case of the vet's minimum, Brandon makes almost $900K a year more. I would think he'd be able to get considerably more than the minimum (undoubtedly with some sort of a reduction if he can't play because of his knees), so he's likely to make somewhere between $1.5 to $3 mil per year more than if he just stayed retired.

 

[PapaG]

I don't think Roy would accept anything more than a vet minimum. He's already getting handsomely paid, and each dollar he adds to his new team's cap space is less money to use on improving that team.

 

[e_blazer]

I guess that remains to be seen, PapaG. There's going to be some competition for his services. Wojnarowski says the Bulls, Mavericks, Warriors, Pacers and Timberwolves have interest and that some of those teams are “privately willing” to offer him a deal longer than one year. SI reports that the TWolves are willing to offer a two year deal. No amounts are listed in any of the articles I looked at, but I don't see a guy turning down money when he knows his chances of playing much longer are slim.