Did Brandon Roy Game the System?

[Denny Crane]

I think you need to read the second paragraph a little more closely, Denny:



At most, the Blazers get to reduce the amount they're on the hook to pay Brandon by 50% of his new contract less $762,195. Even in the case of the vet's minimum, Brandon makes almost $900K a year more. I would think he'd be able to get considerably more than the minimum (undoubtedly with some sort of a reduction if he can't play because of his knees), so he's likely to make somewhere between $1.5 to $3 mil per year more than if he just stayed retired.

I assume he signs the vet minimum. He doesn't care if the blazers pay him or some other team.

The Blazers would save $1M plus 1/2 the minimum salary for a 5 year veteran ($1.02M).

So the Blazers get to set off $1M - $1.02M/2 = ~$500K. Roy makes an extra $500K.

 

[e_blazer]

I assume he signs the vet minimum. He doesn't care if the blazers pay him or some other team.

The Blazers would save $1M plus 1/2 the minimum salary for a 5 year veteran ($1.02M).

So the Blazers get to set off $1M - $1.02M/2 = ~$500K. Roy makes an extra $500K.

You're not reading that correctly. Under that scenario, the Blazers would save ($1M - $762,195)/2 = $118,902 Brandon would get the rest of his approximately $16M this year plus $1M from his new team, or nearly $900K more.

 

[magnifier661]

I'm really hoping Chicago picks up Roy. I think he is the perfect addition to that ball club. Rose can't be their only playmaker and Roy coming off the bench would be perfect for them. It would also give Rose more rest and allow him to gradually get back into the game next season. I'm seriously crossing my fingers here because it would be the best case scenario for him. Also, we wouldn't have to face him but 2 times during the season; unless we actually meet them in the finals.

 

[Denny Crane]

You're not reading that correctly. Under that scenario, the Blazers would save ($1M - $762,195)/2 = $118,902 Brandon would get the rest of his approximately $16M this year plus $1M from his new team, or nearly $900K more.

I read it right.

"The team is still responsible for paying..."

"The team" being the Blazers.

 

[e_blazer]

I read it right.

"The team is still responsible for paying..."

"The team" being the Blazers.

It's your math that I have a problem with, not the party responsible for paying.

 

[Rodolfo]

This is going to be like watching the ex-girlfriend you're still in love with, with another guy. crappy!

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm pretty sure (though not 100% sure) that Brandon can't make above the maximum salary for a player of his tenure in the league unless his contract was grandfathered in (like K*be's). He has a max salary for 2012-13, and if $$ weren't offset he'd violate the CBA. His contract wasn't bought out, was it?

From Coon's article about amnesty:

If a team acquires an amnestied player through secondary waivers, they pay a portion of the player’s salary equal to their bid. If the Knicks waive Billups and the Clippers are the winning bidder at $5 million, then the Clippers pay him $5 million this season, with the Knicks continuing to be responsible for the remaining $9.2 million of his $14.2 million salary.

I'm severely micro-picking here, and I know he's talking about secondary waivers, but it seems like the relevant principles are a) the salary still is paid out in yearly amounts (14.2M salary in Billups' case), and b) Chauncey wasn't getting more than 14.2M. Now, if PA wrote Brandon a $60M check and said "have a nice life", then I could see how you'd zero out any "salary" Roy would have this year. But I don't think that's the case. He wasn't bought out, he was amnestied.

 

[Denny Crane]

It's your math that I have a problem with, not the party responsible for paying.

You used the minimum salary for a 1st year player. Roy is a 5th year player.

Plugin the $1.02M for 5th year minimum salary.

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $16 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $1.02M (the minimum salary for a five-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $500,000. The team is still responsible for paying $15.5M of the original $16 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $16.5M, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

$16.5M he would make minus $16M for his contract is $500K difference.

Show me the math error, my friend.

 

[Denny Crane]

You used the minimum salary for a 1st year player. Roy is a 5th year player.

Plugin the $1.02M for 5th year minimum salary.

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $16 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $1.02M (the minimum salary for a five-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $500,000. The team is still responsible for paying $15.5M of the original $16 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $16.5M, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

$16.5M he would make minus $16M for his contract is $500K difference.

Show me the math error, my friend.

What's the incentive for him to sign a $5M deal with another team?

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $16 million. If this player signs a $5 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $5 million minus $1.02M (the minimum salary for a five-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $500,000. The team is still responsible for paying $11.5M of the original $16 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $16.5M, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

Wouldn't he want his new team to have the $4M difference to use on FAs?

 

[e_blazer]

You used the minimum salary for a 1st year player. Roy is a 5th year player.

Plugin the $1.02M for 5th year minimum salary.

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $16 million. If this player signs a $1 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $1 million minus $1.02M (the minimum salary for a five-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $500,000. The team is still responsible for paying $15.5M of the original $16 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $16.5M, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

$16.5M he would make minus $16M for his contract is $500K difference.

Show me the math error, my friend.

Well now you're just changing what Mr. Coons said in FAQ #64 and compounding it with a math error:

The amount the original team gets to set off is limited to one-half the difference between the player's new salary and the minimum salary for a one-year veteran (if the player is a rookie, then the rookie minimum is used instead).

It doesn't say that you use the 5th year minimum salary if it's a 5th year player. The only time something other than the one-year vet minimum is used is if the player is a rookie. You're also doing the math as $1M - ($1.02M/2) = $500K when Coons's example computes the set-off amount as ($1M - $762,195)/2 = $118,902

 

[e_blazer]

What's the incentive for him to sign a $5M deal with another team?

For example, suppose a fifth-year player is waived with one guaranteed season remaining on his contract for $16 million. If this player signs a $5 million contract with another team for the 2011-12 season, his original team gets to set off $5 million minus $1.02M (the minimum salary for a five-year veteran in 2011-12), divided by two, or $500,000. The team is still responsible for paying $11.5M of the original $16 million. Note that between his prior team and new team the player will earn a combined $16.5M, which was more than he earned prior to being waived.

Wouldn't he want his new team to have the $4M difference to use on FAs?

Again, you haven't computed the set-off amount the way that Coon says it is to be done. In the case of a new $5M contract the set-off amount would be:

($5M - $762,195)/2 = $2,118,902. The amount the Blazers would pay Brandon would be reduced by the set-off amount from $16M to approximately $13.8M. Brandon would get $13.8M + $5M = $18.8M. Sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

 

[jlprk]

No need to differ over which minimum to use, Year 1 vs Year 5. Roy will get the $5M, not the minimum.

I don't think Roy would accept anything more than a vet minimum. He's already getting handsomely paid, and each dollar he adds to his new team's cap space is less money to use on improving that team.

Hokay. Is Roy an angel sent to Earth?

 

[Denny Crane]

Again, you haven't computed the set-off amount the way that Coon says it is to be done. In the case of a new $5M contract the set-off amount would be:

($5M - $762,195)/2 = $2,118,902. The amount the Blazers would pay Brandon would be reduced by the set-off amount from $16M to approximately $13.8M. Brandon would get $13.8M + $5M = $18.8M. Sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

After reviewing the first paragraph I posted from the CBA FAQ, I believe you're right.

 

[Sinobas]

He would have been amnestied either way, and gotten payment for his full contract....

 

[e_blazer]

After reviewing the first paragraph I posted from the CBA FAQ, I believe you're right.

And I was beginning to think you were just being Chicago Bull-headed.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Again, you haven't computed the set-off amount the way that Coon says it is to be done. In the case of a new $5M contract the set-off amount would be:

($5M - $762,195)/2 = $2,118,902. The amount the Blazers would pay Brandon would be reduced by the set-off amount from $16M to approximately $13.8M. Brandon would get $13.8M + $5M = $18.8M. Sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

It might be an incentive, but it still doesn't remove the fact that Brandon's knees are total hamburger. Even if he is gaming the system, his career as a franchise level player was over and there wasn't going to be much use for paying the guy 14-17 million a year from the Blazer's perspective. He was an amnesty candidate regardless of whether or not he considered retirement.

 

[e_blazer]

No disagreement from me on that point, Nic. The Blazers are better off and so is Roy.

 

[OLDSchool_BlazerFAN]

Someone needs to call Jeff Gillooly and put an end Roy's games.

lmfaoooooooooooooo

 

[Draco]

Can the Blazers trade for Roy if another team signs him first? I'd imagine no but I've never seen that rule specified for amnesty waivers.

 

[jlprk]

Then we'd pay him the max + $5M per year for a few minutes every 3rd game.

This would set some kind of productivity record not just in sports, but industry, too.

 

[Stevenson]

Yes, he did game the system. Here's how and what he did:

He knew that with his contract and knee history he would be amnestied. He would then be picked off waivers. He would then need to play in the short 66 game season. BUT he also knew he wasn't ready to play. He needed more time to heal and for treatment. So he "retired." He is then amnestied, but on his terms. He gets to sit out the short season. He gets to heal to the extent possible. He gets to pick his team.

= Gaming the system.

Loved the guy, but he played us like a fiddle.

 

[Tince]

Yes, he did game the system. Here's how and what he did:

He knew that with his contract and knee history he would be amnestied. He would then be picked off waivers. He would then need to play in the short 66 game season. BUT he also knew he wasn't ready to play. He needed more time to heal and for treatment. So he "retired." He is then amnestied, but on his terms. He gets to sit out the short season. He gets to heal to the extent possible. He gets to pick his team.

= Gaming the system.

Loved the guy, but he played us like a fiddle.

Do you think we'd be better off with Roy and his old salary or Roy Hibbert?

 

[craigehlo]

He needed more time to heal and for treatment.

He'll never be healed. He's delusional and the TWolves are just as bad for buying onto his agent's BS.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Yes, he did game the system. Here's how and what he did:

He knew that with his contract and knee history he would be amnestied. He would then be picked off waivers. He would then need to play in the short 66 game season. BUT he also knew he wasn't ready to play. He needed more time to heal and for treatment. So he "retired." He is then amnestied, but on his terms. He gets to sit out the short season. He gets to heal to the extent possible. He gets to pick his team.

= Gaming the system.

Loved the guy, but he played us like a fiddle.

Honestly, I think
Roy = Delusional
Roy's Agent = Gaming the System

 

[Stevenson]

The question is not do I (or you) think he is fit to play. From what I know, the answer is no. But the question is 'did he game the system.' and to that I say clearly he did. Roy's agent, btw, did nothing without Roy's full consent and agreement.

 

[craigehlo]

The question is not do I (or you) think he is fit to play. From what I know, the answer is no. But the question is 'did he game the system.' and to that I say clearly he did. Roy's agent, btw, did nothing without Roy's full consent and agreement.

There's no "gaming" happening here. Roy was pressured into the retirement and is still in denial about his health. It's not going to go well for his knees.

 

[Stevenson]

There's no "gaming" happening here. Roy was pressured into the retirement and is still in denial about his health. It's not going to go well for his knees.

Where is the proof that he was "pressured into retirement"? What difference did it make to the Blazers if he was going to be amnestied? It was not a forced medical retirement, a la Darius, where insurance would have picked it up.

He "retired", took a year off, and is now unretired. Its clever, but total bullshit form a Blazer POV.

 

[Minstrel]

The question is not do I (or you) think he is fit to play. From what I know, the answer is no. But the question is 'did he game the system.' and to that I say clearly he did. Roy's agent, btw, did nothing without Roy's full consent and agreement.

You said Portland got "played like fiddle." What is the negative impact to Portland, if we assume that this entire scenario was planned from the start?

 

[Stevenson]

You said Portland got "played like fiddle." What is the negative impact to Portland, if we assume that this entire scenario was planned from the start?

The damage to the Blazers? Because if he was not actually ready to retire (as we now know for a fact) he is now coming back to play for a different team. Let's say he actually was not in perfect health, but also not retirement ready. How does he tell the team he wants to take a year off to really heal? Especially given his salary, and the Oden issue, he could not. So he fake retired. Got a year off. And now he's no longer a Blazer.

He got a full salary, and a year off. We got zilch.

 

[jlprk]

When he decided he could play again, was his first thought to ask the Blazers if he could play for the team that was paying him about EIGHTY BILLION DOLLARS TO DO NOTHING ???

Did he show the team he had destroyed some RESPECT? ??

Or did he jump ship to their division rival without nicely asking first?