Does Dame fit any more?

[Rastapopoulos]

We owe it to him to give him a chance to fit prior to trading him.

Of course we do. But then what happens when it looks like it's not working?

"Give him more time! It's only been a month or so!"
"We'd be doing worse if it weren't for Dame!"

And so on.

And it remains true that Dame and Ant do not complement each other well and may even step on each other's toes. They have the same strengths, but they also have the same weaknesses. So: suppose you had to choose:

a) Trade for players to put around Dame for one last shot at a championship (the Boston Big Three method) which would require trading Ant as he's our best asset, or
b) Try to build a team that will succeed in Ant's time-frame (which would almost be greatly advanced by trading Dame ASAP to get his soon-to-be massive contract off the books)

Everyone seems to think there's a third option, but I'm going to need an example in NBA history where it works (and don't say David Robinson and Tim Duncan, because both of them were all-world defense AND offense).

 

[Natebishop3]

If we DO give it a shot and Dame comes out and looks like ass, or the team isn't playing well, how much does it hurt our trade position? Teams are going to know that we're in a bind.

 

[sheed30]

it's not reasonable to think the best player in franchise history who:

1. has never been un-coachable,
2. repeatedly has pledged his desire to win HERE.
3. admitted LOVES the coach and wants to play for him

should be traded before he even gets a chance to play this new style of ball with new teammates.

No. this is not worth discussing.

Especially when the dude coming up with this topic has posted this bullshit ad nauseum for over a year.

Common sense has entered the forum!

 

[Orion Bailey]

Of course we do. But then what happens when it looks like it's not working?

"Give him more time! It's only been a month or so!"
"We'd be doing worse if it weren't for Dame!"

And so on.

And it remains true that Dame and Ant do not complement each other well and may even step on each other's toes. They have the same strengths, but they also have the same weaknesses. So: suppose you had to choose:

a) Trade for players to put around Dame for one last shot at a championship (the Boston Big Three method) which would require trading Ant as he's our best asset, or
b) Try to build a team that will succeed in Ant's time-frame (which would almost be greatly advanced by trading Dame ASAP to get his soon-to-be massive contract off the books)

Everyone seems to think there's a third option, but I'm going to need an example in NBA history where it works (and don't say David Robinson and Tim Duncan, because both of them were all-world defense AND offense).

We owe it to Dame to not trade him off of hypotheticals. FO and him should agree if it isnt working by the trade deadline he is traded. Fo should work with him like they did CJ. Be transparent.

And who cares what anyone in here says or thinks.

Trade deadline or bust.

 

[andalusian]

If we DO give it a shot and Dame comes out and looks like ass, or the team isn't playing well, how much does it hurt our trade position? Teams are going to know that we're in a bind.

Of course, and what happens if the picks you trade for flame out as good rotation players at best and whoever you get for him salary wise is not a fit? There is always a risk / reward with any of these kinds of decisions.

It is pretty obvious that the chance of getting a superstar of Dame's caliber back is not a likely return, when all is said and done - so basically the argument for looking at the Dame / Ant combo is a much higher ceiling - where an immediate trade will likely get you a higher floor.

The Blazers have a chance at old / young superstar combo + supporting roster - they would be fools not to explore it - because if it works out... they have a real chance of contention.

 

[Natebishop3]

Of course, and what happens if the picks you trade for flame out as good rotation players at best and whoever you get for him salary wise is not a fit? There is always a risk / reward with any of these kinds of decisions.

It is pretty obvious that the chance of getting a superstar of Dame's caliber back is not a likely return, when all is said and done - so basically the argument for looking at the Dame / Ant combo is a much higher ceiling - where an immediate trade will likely get you a higher floor.

The Blazers have a chance at old / young superstar combo + supporting roster - they would be fools not to explore it - because if it works out... they have a real chance of contention.

The flaw in this logic is that this isn't fantasy league.... or NBA2k. Putting two players who possess similar strengths and similar weaknesses means that there's a very real chance that neither will be playing to their potential.

These are real players who have to work together, and sometimes a combination of players simply doesn't work. On paper Dame and Ant is a formidable duo. In reality, they might make each other worse because they both need the ball, and defensively their deficiencies are amplified because they're both weak defenders. So the question becomes:

Is Dame at 80% and Ant at 80% better than:

Dame at 100% and Hart at 100% + whatever we can get for Ant

or

Ant at 100% and Hart at 100% + whatever we can get for Dame

 

[andalusian]

The flaw in this logic is that this isn't fantasy league.... or NBA2k. Putting two players who possess similar strengths and similar weaknesses means that there's a very real chance that neither will be playing to their potential.

These are real players who have to work together, and sometimes a combination of players simply doesn't work. On paper Dame and Ant is a formidable duo. In reality, they might make each other worse because they both need the ball, and defensively their deficiencies are amplified because they're both weak defenders. So the question becomes:

Is Dame at 80% and Ant at 80% better than:

Dame at 100% and Hart at 100% + whatever we can get for Ant

or

Ant at 100% and Hart at 100% + whatever we can get for Dame

No disrespect, but you have put your analyst hat on and you believe it is clearly the case. I would argue that many are not as certain as you are - thus the risk / reward scenario presented.

 

[Natebishop3]

No disrespect, but you have put your analyst hat on and you believe it is clearly the case. I would argue that many are not as certain as you are - thus the risk / reward scenario presented.

I definitely see value in bringing Dame back so he can, at the very least, show that he's healthy and still an elite player.

But there's also risk because if we come out flat next season and the team is showing major regression with Dame on the floor, it can really damage our position of strength in negotiations.

 

[sheed30]

If we DO give it a shot and Dame comes out and looks like ass, or the team isn't playing well, how much does it hurt our trade position? Teams are going to know that we're in a bind.

We WILL give it a shot, would be dumb not too, and when has Dame came out looking like an ass? Grasping for straws aren't you now?

 

[sheed30]

No disrespect, but you have put your analyst hat on and you believe it is clearly the case. I would argue that many are not as certain as you are - thus the risk / reward scenario presented.

He will push the Dame should be traded narrative all over this forum now, sometimes it's just best to leave people to their views and move on, or it will be the same ring around the rosey talk.

 

[wizenheimer]

I definitely see value in bringing Dame back so he can, at the very least, show that he's healthy and still an elite player.

But there's also risk because if we come out flat next season and the team is showing major regression with Dame on the floor, it can really damage our position of strength in negotiations.

what position of strength do you think Portland is in now? I don't think it's nearly as good as you apparently do

you're advocating trading a 31 year old 6'2 guard on a super-max deal who is currently injured and out because of surgery to try and correct a chronic condition. And doing it directly following the worst season of his career. Teams are not going to pony up great assets to trade into that situation. Right now is selling low

and what you're selling seems to be that Dame is not going to be anywhere close to the player he was....just 9 months ago...so dump him now at a discounted price

 

[Natebishop3]

what position of strength do you think Portland is in now? I don't think it's nearly as good as you apparently do

you're advocating trading a 31 year old 6'2 guard on a super-max deal who is currently injured and out because of surgery to try and correct a chronic condition. And doing it directly following the worst season of his career. Teams are not going to pony up great assets to trade into that situation. Right now is selling low

and what you're selling seems to be that Dame is not going to be anywhere close to the player he was....just 9 months ago...so dump him now at a discounted price

I think his value decreases every year that he ages. He's 31. He's going to be 32 in a few months. I don't think the league believes that he's drastically worse than he was 9 months ago. I think he still has high value. The difference is that you're equating value with health and output. I'm equating value with team success and perception. If the team comes out flat, there will be once again rumblings that Dame will want out. Or maybe he comes out and he's not the player that he was. Right now there's a chance that he won't be the same player, albeit a very small one. If he were to come out and play poorly next season, it wouldn't be a chance anymore. It would be a fact. So right now a team would trade for him and hope that he's going to be the same guy. I think a lot of teams would take that chance.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Not sure it is 'worse'. It's more about the 'fit' where you have the established, all-star, older, lead guard, coming back from an injury to re-take the reins from the younger, now more explosive, slightly bigger lead guard who is showing signs. Since you can't have two lead guards, the observation is more how will they fit together and would what they would get back for the much more expensive one, but a big enough haul to set up the new lead guard with pieces to really compete?

That is what Blazer fans want....to be at least a contender. They have not been that in 20 years.

So you're one of them?

 

[Fairly-Hard]

It seems like such an obvious concern and yet so many people refuse to even acknowledge it.

Kinda like...... LMA leaving the team. There were people who refused to even consider that he would leave the team right up until the very last minute when he said "peace, I'm out."

So you're another one of them?

 

[Fairly-Hard]

Of course we do. But then what happens when it looks like it's not working?

"Give him more time! It's only been a month or so!"
"We'd be doing worse if it weren't for Dame!"

And so on.

And it remains true that Dame and Ant do not complement each other well and may even step on each other's toes. They have the same strengths, but they also have the same weaknesses. So: suppose you had to choose:

a) Trade for players to put around Dame for one last shot at a championship (the Boston Big Three method) which would require trading Ant as he's our best asset, or
b) Try to build a team that will succeed in Ant's time-frame (which would almost be greatly advanced by trading Dame ASAP to get his soon-to-be massive contract off the books)

Everyone seems to think there's a third option, but I'm going to need an example in NBA history where it works (and don't say David Robinson and Tim Duncan, because both of them were all-world defense AND offense).

And another one of them?

 

[AngryFan]

If rumors of Damian wanting a 2-year supermax extension are true he needs to go.

 

[Fairly-Hard]

If rumors of Damian wanting a 2-year supermax extension are true he needs to go.

At least this one made it about money not just "Fit".

 

[andalusian]

I definitely see value in bringing Dame back so he can, at the very least, show that he's healthy and still an elite player.

But there's also risk because if we come out flat next season and the team is showing major regression with Dame on the floor, it can really damage our position of strength in negotiations.

That's a lot different from your earlier post which went with:

"The flaw in this logic is that this isn't fantasy league.... or NBA2k"

There is always risk in these kinds of things, but I am pretty sure you were one that in the past called Simons a "failed experiment" as a PG before giving him the time to mature and learn (if it was not you, I apologize, that's what my memory says). In other words - there are certainly things that we can not for sure until we try them - and I will repeat my assertion - if the Dame / Ant combo can coexist efficiently - the Blazers have a much higher chance to become contenders than if you try to maximize Dame's trade value before exploring the pairing - so not giving this combination a try is a mistake.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think his value decreases every year that he ages. He's 31. He's going to be 32 in a few months. I don't think the league believes that he's drastically worse than he was 9 months ago. I think he still has high value. The difference is that you're equating value with health and output. I'm equating value with team success and perception. If the team comes out flat, there will be once again rumblings that Dame will want out. Or maybe he comes out and he's not the player that he was. Right now there's a chance that he won't be the same player, albeit a very small one. If he were to come out and play poorly next season, it wouldn't be a chance anymore. It would be a fact. So right now a team would trade for him and hope that he's going to be the same guy. I think a lot of teams would take that chance.

I think very few would. But one that should is the team he plays for

 

[Natebishop3]

That's a lot different from your earlier post which went with:



There is always risk in these kinds of things, but I am pretty sure you were one that in the past called Simons a "failed experiment" as a PG before giving him the time to mature and learn (if it was not you, I apologize, that's what my memory says). In other words - there are certainly things that we can not for sure until we try them - and I will repeat my assertion - if the Dame / Ant combo can coexist efficiently - the Blazers have a much higher chance to become contenders than if you try to maximize Dame's trade value before exploring the pairing - so not giving this combination a try is a mistake.

Maybe it should have said "potential value." My point is that I can see the argument why someone would want to bring him back. But I can also see the argument for trading him. I don't understand people who just flat out say, "nope this is the way." Bringing him back might work out. It might be a slam dunk. He and Simons might be awesome together. I can see that happening..... I can also see major issues with it. I try to be able to see both sides.

 

[Natebishop3]

I am pretty sure you were one that in the past called Simons a "failed experiment" as a PG before giving him the time to mature and learn (if it was not you, I apologize, that's what my memory says)

Oh, forgot to respond to this. I definitely said that he didn't resemble anything close to a point guard in the past. Not sure I called it a failed experiment. Under Stotts it WAS a failed experiment. They ended up just sticking him in the corner to shoot threes, which he actually did very well.

Nevermind. Here you go. I actually stand by that statement. Simons at point guard under Stotts was a disaster. He has been significantly better as a point guard under Billups.
"But I still think the experiment of Simons at point guard has failed miserably and I have always hated having CJ play point guard with the second unit because he just decides that it's MeJ Time and passes maybe one in four or five possessions."
Trade Ideas Thread

 

[AngryFan]

Blazers fans needing to see with their own eyes that you can't build a contender with ~80 million $ going to 2 point guards is the exact sort of reason why Olshey and Stotts were allowed to stick around as long as they did.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

And another one of them?

??

 

[Natebishop3]

So you're another one of them?

Someone who thinks critically? Yup. I'm one of those.

 

[Strenuus]

The ONLY correct answer that has no valid argument against it because it's LOGIC is he comes back and we see how he fits

Anything contrary is wrong and thats just common sense.

 

[donkiez]

The answer is obvious guys. Dame gets two or three more years. If we cant get it together by then, then we look at trading him because he will be close to the end of his contract, and on the downward slope of his career. Until then, he is the best thing to happen to this franchise in 30 years and when you get a player like him you do everything you can to make it work.

 

[LayneStaley]

No harm in trying it, I mean the trade deadline is in the middle of the season. Most likely get the max return at that time anyway, if necessary.

 

[HailBlazers]

The answer is obvious guys. Dame gets two or three more years. If we cant get it together by then, then we look at trading him because he will be close to the end of his contract, and on the downward slope of his career. Until then, he is the best thing to happen to this franchise in 30 years and when you get a player like him you do everything you can to make it work.

Yeah there's no reason to think he can't have a long and effective career a la CP3.

 

[blazerkor]

The answer is obvious guys. Dame gets two or three more years. If we cant get it together by then, then we look at trading him because he will be close to the end of his contract, and on the downward slope of his career. Until then, he is the best thing to happen to this franchise in 30 years and when you get a player like him you do everything you can to make it work.

Two or three more year?!? Nah, if it's obvious that they don't work together starting this season when Dame comes back you should probably trade him this off season but at the latest if it's still not working by the trade deadline next season you have to make that move then. Right now Dame is a bona fide superstar and would yield a high impact return. In two or three seasons he'll be either on the cusp of a decline or a declining all star instead of a steady all nba player.

The fact is we don't know the answer to the original question but with how competitive we've been, it's almost a sure fire thing that Dame gets in a few weeks of play at the end of the season and play in and hopefully playoff games and that should answer the question. Between Dame/CJ and how fast we've seen how the pieces we have right now meshed, we now know that waiting seasons to see if talent complements each other is quite foolish.

 

[blazerkor]

Yeah there's no reason to think he can't have a long and effective career a la CP3.

Oh if Dame fits with what we have going on I want him to retire a Blazer for sure. I think he's going to age really well. That being said Ant has a decade or a little more before his prime will be over and I don't think he has the trade value Dame does. So there's no way I wait very long at all to trade Dame if he doesn't fit in with this personnel and system. I never thought I'd be saying that ever and I'm hoping it's a nonissue because Dame fits in just as seamlessly as the guys we just added.