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Change the first line to "Russia, Russia, Russia" and you have a winner.
Politics Donald Trump Jr just confessed to Trump campaign election fraud
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Change the first line to "Russia, Russia, Russia" and you have a winner.
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Constitutional scholar Jonathan Turley again. The text in big font is how I see it. I'm looking at the claims and the legality and even the concept of if this is a high crime or misdemeanor (which I think has to happen AFTER taking office).
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...n-don-jrs-russia-meeting-wasnt-collusion-just
In other words, does any of this constitute a clear crime or even a vague inkblot image of a crime?
No, at least not on these facts.
Richard Painter, an ethics lawyer under former President George W. Bush, has declared that the meeting “borders on treason.” Article III defines treason as “levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” Trump Jr. went to a meeting on the belief that a lawyer had evidence of criminal collusion by Clinton with a foreign power. That is a rather curious basis for a charge of treason and would make traitors of countless campaign operatives.
On CNN, viewers were told that this is the long-sought “smoking gun” on collusion. Norm Eisen, a White House ethics czar under former President Obama, reportedly has invoked the Logan Act — a law from 1799 that makes it a crime for citizens to intervene in disputes or controversies between the United States and foreign governments. It has never been used to convict a single U.S. citizen and is widely viewed as facially unconstitutional. Yet, when Eisen looks at this inkblot he reportedly sees a Logan Act case.
For Vermont Law professor Jennifer Taub, the inkblot looks like a conspiracy to defraud the United States. She believes that prosecutors could charge the participants with seeking to defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. 371 by going to a meeting to hear evidence that another party may have committed a crime … against the United States. No such evidence was offered, and no further actions are known to have occurred. There has never been a case under 18 U.S.C. 371 that even remotely resembles such a distortive claim.
One image that a lot of experts see in these stories is a possible violation of the federal law banning foreign contributions to federal campaigns — ironically the very claim that the meeting was called to discuss with regard to Hillary Clinton. The relevant law is 36 U.S.C. 510, which bars direct or indirect contributions or other things of value from a foreign national. MSNBC justice and security analyst Matthew Miller said Trump Jr. could now go to jail because “it doesn’t have to be money … it can be, potentially, accepting information. So he’s potentially confessing in his statement to committing a crime.”
Of course, the crux is “other thing of value.” Under this approach, a court would have to include information as a thing of value like money and then declare that Trump Jr. solicited the information by agreeing to go to the meeting. If that were the case, the wide array of meetings by politicians and their aides with foreign nationals would suddenly become possible criminal violations.
It is common for foreign governments to withhold or take actions to influence elections in other countries. Information is often shared through various channels during elections from lobbyists, non-government organizations, and government officials. This includes former Clinton aide Alexandra Chalupa, who allegedly worked with Ukrainian government officials and journalists to come up with dirt on Trump and Manafort.
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-bl...n-don-jrs-russia-meeting-wasnt-collusion-just
In other words, does any of this constitute a clear crime or even a vague inkblot image of a crime?
No, at least not on these facts.
Richard Painter, an ethics lawyer under former President George W. Bush, has declared that the meeting “borders on treason.” Article III defines treason as “levying War against [the United States], or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” Trump Jr. went to a meeting on the belief that a lawyer had evidence of criminal collusion by Clinton with a foreign power. That is a rather curious basis for a charge of treason and would make traitors of countless campaign operatives.
On CNN, viewers were told that this is the long-sought “smoking gun” on collusion. Norm Eisen, a White House ethics czar under former President Obama, reportedly has invoked the Logan Act — a law from 1799 that makes it a crime for citizens to intervene in disputes or controversies between the United States and foreign governments. It has never been used to convict a single U.S. citizen and is widely viewed as facially unconstitutional. Yet, when Eisen looks at this inkblot he reportedly sees a Logan Act case.
For Vermont Law professor Jennifer Taub, the inkblot looks like a conspiracy to defraud the United States. She believes that prosecutors could charge the participants with seeking to defraud the United States under 18 U.S.C. 371 by going to a meeting to hear evidence that another party may have committed a crime … against the United States. No such evidence was offered, and no further actions are known to have occurred. There has never been a case under 18 U.S.C. 371 that even remotely resembles such a distortive claim.
One image that a lot of experts see in these stories is a possible violation of the federal law banning foreign contributions to federal campaigns — ironically the very claim that the meeting was called to discuss with regard to Hillary Clinton. The relevant law is 36 U.S.C. 510, which bars direct or indirect contributions or other things of value from a foreign national. MSNBC justice and security analyst Matthew Miller said Trump Jr. could now go to jail because “it doesn’t have to be money … it can be, potentially, accepting information. So he’s potentially confessing in his statement to committing a crime.”
Of course, the crux is “other thing of value.” Under this approach, a court would have to include information as a thing of value like money and then declare that Trump Jr. solicited the information by agreeing to go to the meeting. If that were the case, the wide array of meetings by politicians and their aides with foreign nationals would suddenly become possible criminal violations.
It is common for foreign governments to withhold or take actions to influence elections in other countries. Information is often shared through various channels during elections from lobbyists, non-government organizations, and government officials. This includes former Clinton aide Alexandra Chalupa, who allegedly worked with Ukrainian government officials and journalists to come up with dirt on Trump and Manafort.
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It's interesting that you left out this part:
Yesterday, The New York Times added to this frenzy by reporting that “Donald Trump Jr. was informed in an email that the material was part of a Russian government effort to aid his father’s candidacy.” While I remain skeptical of the basis for a crime based on “collusion,” that would clearly be a significant development in supporting allegations of a knowing coordination with the Russians.
Today, Trump Jr. released his emails on Twitter. One states, “the crown prosecutor of Russia” had offered “to provide the Trump campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.” Rod Goldstone, a publicist, stated, “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”
That would clearly constitute at least initial communications and possible coordination between the Russians and the Trump campaign.
Sedatedfork
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I read something similar Denny and it seems like the "treason" tag line is not correct, because the US was not at war with Russia. With that said, the fact is that these optics are bad, like really, really bad and they seem to contradict everything coming from the Trump Administration. There may not have been a crime committed, but absolutely the US Congress and Special Counsel should investigate if and how Russia influenced the election to try and prevent it from occurring again and if crimes were committed, prosecute those responsible. Trump and Trump Jr. look like liars, like really, really bad liars. LoL @ transparent.... I think the GOP would love to dump Trump if they could and this might be the beginning of the GOP starting to turn on Trump.
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There's very good reason to doubt his story - he changed it 3 times over the weekend. Remember when it was just a meeting about adoption? Also note his outraged denials of any contact with Russians a week or two after this meeting took place.
So far it is. Bet it won't be by this time next month. But you keep pushing that rock up the hill.
barfo
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Seems like a non-consequential meeting among hundreds of others, that he wouldn't particularly remember the details. It's not like a major foreign policy disaster where a US ambassador was killed (something one should remember vividly).
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I agree with this 100%. Except I don't think they're interested in spending their time on a whacky conspiracy theory, feeding it even further.
riverman
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sure...in the middle of dad's campaign? did you even read his emails concerning this? Guess what....there are consequences to his non-consequential meeting.
Everybody digs up dirt so Donald Jr is just another good old boy out to make daddy a buck eh?
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Sure I read the emails. They had nothing to do with collusion, just hearing about some potential dirt unrelated to any hacking.
What I haven't done is seen how many emails there are overall. If these are one thread among thousands, and many others are about meetings, even potential opposition research info related ones, then it is inconsequential. I'm guessing there are MANY others.
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riverman
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There should not be double standards but if somebody broke the speed limit and didn't get a ticket doesn't mean the guy pulled over today won't get one...are you actually surprised that there's a double standard between the Dems and GOP? Trump invited scrutiny from all corners of the political map by insulting large segments of the world repeatedly.....he's invited a culture of division and mistrust ...ugliest way to govern I've ever seen...I'm for one, not impressed with our administration's conduct or manner of governing...are you? I was open to the pres earning my trust but he's not going to do that period...can't be trusted....I thought he'd lobby for Taiwan to get a seat in the UN but ......nah....he used the double standard there too...first strike against me trusting him...now it's the MO in DC to do nothing but project double standards
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You didn't answer my question, just deflected into a screed about governing style.
If someone so bent out of shape about this Trump Jr. thing, they should REALLY be upset about the Trump Dossier, which isn't a 20 minute meeting about nothing - it's weeks' of paid for research to a foreign investigator who used Russian sources. The facts known about it are hard facts.
I for one think ANYONE governing is better than the alternative the Dems offered.
riverman
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Trump is a major foreign policy disaster.....see N Korea shooting off ICBMs and Iran saying...ok..we might as well build weapons now because he's not going to work with us
riverman
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at least I stayed current.....you on the other hand are still trying to dig up Hillary dirt....trust is what makes America great again....difference between you and I is you trust this administration and I don't.
riverman
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what part of "there should not be double standards" did you not understand as an answer....why don't you just say until I bitch about Hillary, you'll disagree with me.
riverman
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you can wear blinders all you want...and respect his governing style...not me
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I don't care for his governing style. Some of the things he's doing and wants to do, I am for, others I am not for.
If he takes a hatchet to government and reigns in the deficits, no amount of politics of personal destruction matters.
riverman
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Assad....yeah...him being in power is real success for Syria....
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Here's the thing. I am not bitching about the legality or morality of what the Clinton campaign did. Though if she were elected, all sorts of these things (and worse) would simply be swept under the rug amid another (talk about blinders!) love fest for the Democrat.
My gripe is that it was made public without any basis of fact behind the accusations in it. And the collusion between the Democrats and the deep state.
Let the Democrats do their worst. Keep government independent of it all.
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And we go around in circles. There wouldn't be a war in Syria if not for Obama/Clinton.
riverman
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ASSAD!!!!!!!!!ASSAD!!!!!!!! He's dependant upon the US and Russia to run his country right? He opened the borders to Husseins henchmen when we invaded Iraq right? but it's our fault.....
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Not following the argument here. So Jeb Bush's team hired a Brit to dig up dirt on Trump. The Brit got some dirt by talking to Russians. The research ended up being distributed to various others and eventually made public.
Which part of that do you think is illegal or unethical, and who is to blame for that part?
barfo
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Fixed it for you, and yes, it's our fault.
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Clinton's team hired a Brit to dig up dirt on Trump.
Distributing foreign "intelligence" against a candidate seems to be what your kind think is treason.
Geez.
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Pretty sure it was Jeb Bush who hired the Brit. But anyway, distributing foreign intelligence is not (a) what Trump Jr did (so far as we know now) and (b) not something Clinton did either (so far as we know now).
So I still don't see your point.
barfo
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...76c69081518_story.html?utm_term=.aee5da09bdfc
At the time of the October agreement, FBI officials probing Russian activities, including possible contacts between Trump associates and Russian entities, were aware of the information that Steele had been gathering while working for a Washington research firm hired by supporters of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, according to the people familiar with the agreement. The firm was due to stop paying Steele as Election Day approached, but Steele felt his work was not done, these people said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...and-the-trump-dossier/?utm_term=.ff174d5b13f9
This week’s revelations about Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with a Russian lawyer have shined a new spotlight on a small Washington opposition research firm that worked with her on a legal case for years and then subsequently commissioned a dossier full of salacious allegations of the Russian government’s attempts to collude with the Trump presidential campaign.
The firm, Fusion GPS, will be one subject of a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing next week that was planned well before the story broke of Trump Jr.’s June 2016 meeting with Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya. Fusion GPS says it had no involvement in the meeting although it did work on a lawsuit that involved Veselnitskaya for more than two years.
...
“Specifically, we have learned that the person who sought the meeting is associated with Fusion GPS, a firm which according to public reports, was retained by Democratic operatives to develop opposition research on the president and which commissioned the phony Steele dossier,” Corallo said in a statement.
At the time of the October agreement, FBI officials probing Russian activities, including possible contacts between Trump associates and Russian entities, were aware of the information that Steele had been gathering while working for a Washington research firm hired by supporters of Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton, according to the people familiar with the agreement. The firm was due to stop paying Steele as Election Day approached, but Steele felt his work was not done, these people said.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...and-the-trump-dossier/?utm_term=.ff174d5b13f9
This week’s revelations about Donald Trump Jr.’s meeting with a Russian lawyer have shined a new spotlight on a small Washington opposition research firm that worked with her on a legal case for years and then subsequently commissioned a dossier full of salacious allegations of the Russian government’s attempts to collude with the Trump presidential campaign.
The firm, Fusion GPS, will be one subject of a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing next week that was planned well before the story broke of Trump Jr.’s June 2016 meeting with Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya. Fusion GPS says it had no involvement in the meeting although it did work on a lawsuit that involved Veselnitskaya for more than two years.
...
“Specifically, we have learned that the person who sought the meeting is associated with Fusion GPS, a firm which according to public reports, was retained by Democratic operatives to develop opposition research on the president and which commissioned the phony Steele dossier,” Corallo said in a statement.
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Distributing foreign intelligence is what the Clinton campaign did. The dossier was developed by british and Russian spies.
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Could be. I haven't seen that reported, but I'm not saying they didn't. In any case that's a different thing than what Trump has admitted to.
Could be. I haven't seen reported that Russian Spies were involved, but maybe they were.
barfo